Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

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Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:14 pm

I have always more or less been on a quest to understand the Universe. I decided to start with understanding the more fundamental aspects of the Universe and then build on that understanding to understand more complicated things. But the question came up as to what was the most fundamental thing in the Universe. Elementary Particle Physics seemed to be a good place to start. What could be more fundamental than Electrons, Protons, and Neutrons? Well you quickly find out that Elementary Particles are just made out of Energy. So Energy seemed to be the thing to start with. Eventually I learned that Energy can arise out of Space itself. So what does this mean about our concept of Space? It would seem that Energy might be made out of Space. So then the regression back to find the most fundamental thing ended up with trying to understanding Space, which of course is Nothing. How do you study Nothing?

Eventually I realized that Space was not really Nothing it was Something. Since Space is Something it could exist or not exist. The common notion that Space is an ever existent background Thing that extends out infinitely in three directions could be wrong. There could be different kinds of Spaces besides our 3D Space. There could be a 4D Space. There could be no Space. The possibility of no Space is almost impossible to grasp by the 3D human brain.

I thought that if I could show that 4D Space is a workable reality for a Universe , then I would be able to convince myself that Space is a Thing just as Energy and Matter are Things. The concept of Nothing then becomes a concept of Absolute Nothing where there is no Matter, Energy, or Space.

To understand 4D Space I thought I should try to experience what it would be like to be a 4D Conscious being living in and moving around in a 4D World. See Exploring the 4th Dimension Using Animations at:

http://www.theintermind.com/ExploringTh ... ations.asp.

I generated many Animations to help me do this. I think the Animations were helpful but I still feel that I am unable to exactly experience a 4D World in the same way an actual 4D being would. The key thing that we must do is understand how a 4D being can see a 3D Hyperplane as a Flat object. Anything else you think you know is irrelevant until you understand that.

But even though I was not able to experience 4D in the way I had hoped I believe that the Animations have shown me that a 4D World is possible and therefore that our 3D Space is only one type of Space. There can be No Space if there can be 3D Space or 4D Space.

The one thing I learned from the Animations is that the reason I don't understand 4D Space is because I am too embedded in this 3D Universe. I can think about 4D Space in theory and use all the different techniques for visualizing it but my 3D brain will never let me fully understand it. I do not think anyone can. We would need a 4D Brain to do this.

To be able to see in our 3D World we have a Visual Cortex that is roughly a flat (but folded) 2D patch of a little more than 1 billion Neurons. If it were a square patch it would be about 32000 Neurons on each side. A 2D being would only need a line of these Neurons or 32000 of them. The whole 2D Brain Neuron count would be scaled down by a factor of 32000. A 2D Brain would be 32000 times less intelligent than a 3D Brain. A 4D Visual Cortex by analogy would have to be a cube of Neurons with 32000 Neurons on all sides. It would be a 3D Hyper Plane so the 4D being would view it as flat. A 4D being's Visual Cortex would have 32000 times more Neurons than a 3D being's Visual Cortex. The 4D Brain Neuron count would be scaled up by a factor of 32000 and a 4D being will probably be 32000 times more intelligent than we are.

So the conclusion we have to come to is that we, and I mean all of us 3D beings, can never know what it would be like to actually be a 4D being. We are just not smart enough. You might think you understand 4D using one of the techniques but you never really get there. You need to be able to see our 3D Space as being Flat. I think this is an important realization for Philosophy and the study of the limits of our ability to understand things.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:16 pm

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:34 pm

Thank You for the link but I have seen all that. The usual representation of the Tesseract is a self eating monstrosity, folding in on itself as it rotates. There is no empty space inside the box with the model and the sides are shown as 3D objects that have thickness. I hate to say it but the Tesseract is a simple empty box in 4D. It has 8 sides each of which is Flat. I repeat, the sides are Flat to the 4Der. That example they always show does not show the Flatness of the sides. That model is an aberration that tries to show the connectivity of the sides at the expense of any kind of real representation of the Tesseract. The real failing of the 3D Mind is that it cannot visualize a 3D object as being Flat. When you can visualize a 3D hyper plane as Flat then you will understand how a 4Der sees a Tesseract. A 4Der would think the Tesseract is the simplest thing. The fact that our 3D Minds have to go through such conniptions just to even conceptualize the thing shows how retarded the 3D Mind actually is.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:12 pm

We are, of course, 4D beings. Length, breadth, depth and time. We can move in the three dimensions of space, and we are constantly moving forward in time at the rate of one minute for every 60 seconds.

The word "understand " has many meanings. I suspect, Steve, you are using it in the meaning of visualizing. But many people understand 4D space mathematically, which is another, and entirely valid, form of understanding.

But if you fail to understand something fully, so what ? The universe is full of stuff we cannot understand. Simply describe it mathematically, and do what the quantum physicists say, "Shut up and calculate. "

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:40 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:We are, of course, 4D beings. Length, breadth, depth and time. We can move in the three dimensions of space, and we are constantly moving forward in time at the rate of one minute for every 60 seconds.
I think the best way to visualise the four dimensions including time is using light cone models from physics. This model also allows you to quickly assess causality.
Light Cones model.jpg
However, by adding "time" we are mixing up "apples and oranges". If super-string theory is correct, we have 10 real dimensions plus time. We really shouldn't call time the 4th dimension because then the 4th ,5th,6t and,7th dimensions get pushed up one and get called the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th dimension.

In short, super string theory unifies the three electromagnetic energies as operating in extremely tiny dimensions at Planck's constant. String theory does not account for gravity, but gravity may simply be due to curved space time and not a property at all.

"One notable feature of string theories is that these theories require extra dimensions of spacetime for their mathematical consistency. In bosonic string theory, spacetime is 26-dimensional, while in superstring theory it is 10-dimensional, and in M-theory it is 11-dimensional."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

I do not think there is a greater "fourth dimension" in reality. I think this was a mathematical exercise that simply became popular when MS Escher and Salvador Dali based paintings and artwork on visualising it. :D
Dali_Crucifixion_hypercube.jpg
Escher 4th dimension mathematics.jpg
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:04 am

Everything constantly moves at the speed of light in four dimensions: whatever speed you use up in the spatial dimensions you haven't got left for moving in time.
Hence time passes fastest.for something stationary (relatively), and slowest (or not at all) for something moving at lightspeed.
So all you need to envision 4D space is to know movement in 3D and move the rest along the time axis.

I'm not sure how much better you can understand anything.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:49 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:12 pm
We are, of course, 4D beings. Length, breadth, depth and time. We can move in the three dimensions of space, and we are constantly moving forward in time at the rate of one minute for every 60 seconds.

The word "understand " has many meanings. I suspect, Steve, you are using it in the meaning of visualizing. But many people understand 4D space mathematically, which is another, and entirely valid, form of understanding.

But if you fail to understand something fully, so what ? The universe is full of stuff we cannot understand. Simply describe it mathematically, and do what the quantum physicists say, "Shut up and calculate. "
Time of course is not a Physical Dimension. I am talking about a 4D Physical Space which would make Time the 5th dimension. It was always a bad idea when Scientists and Mathematicians made Time be "The 4th dimension". People will religiously say that Time is an actual Physical dimension. This also created nonsensical necessities like in a Movie I saw where they were dealing with 4 Physical dimensions but had to say that the extra dimension was the 5th dimension because Time was the 4th dimension.

You should never stop trying to understand things. When someone says something like "Shut up and Calculate", all kinds of Alarm bells should go off. There must be something wrong with QM if that is the answer to a question about QM.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:53 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:04 am
Everything constantly moves at the speed of light in four dimensions: whatever speed you use up in the spatial dimensions you haven't got left for moving in time.
Hence time passes fastest.for something stationary (relatively), and slowest (or not at all) for something moving at lightspeed.
So all you need to envision 4D space is to know movement in 3D and move the rest along the time axis.

I'm not sure how much better you can understand anything.
I'm talking about 4D Space not 4D Space-Time. So it would be 5D Space-Time. But your premise is interesting.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:35 pm

Steve
There is no evidence that there is a 4D space without time. Matthew pointed out that super string theory uses many dimensions, but that is also unproven.

It seems to me a bit silly to be tearing out your hair over something that may not exist.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:42 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: It seems to me a bit silly to be tearing out your hair over something that may not exist.
I'm doing this from memory...so be forgiving

Super-String theory pointed out that the initial singularity curved time and gravity around itself in three dimensions. Therefore there isn't a greater fourth dimension or the singularity would not have existed as it did........yet we know it did.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:00 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:53 pm
I'm talking about 4D Space not 4D Space-Time. So it would be 5D Space-Time. But your premise is interesting.
[/quote]

We don't understand 3D space either, we are just used to it. But all investigation you can do in 3D, you can also do in 4D as long as you have properly determined your dimensions.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:10 am

SteveKlinko" wrote: I am talking about a 4D Physical Space which would make Time the 5th dimension.
The original singularity was 3D and all space-time wrapped around its infinite density. There in no greater 4th dimension with time moving through it, as the singularity could not exist.

Show me your alternative mathematics.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:14 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:35 pm
Steve
There is no evidence that there is a 4D space without time. Matthew pointed out that super string theory uses many dimensions, but that is also unproven.

It seems to me a bit silly to be tearing out your hair over something that may not exist.
The Universe is of course 3D. But the point of the post is to ask the question: could the Universe have been 4D? Then what would a 4D Universe look like? The first thing you would have to do is to Visualize 3D Space as Flat. That's the thing that our 3D Brains will not let us do.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:22 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:00 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:53 pm
I'm talking about 4D Space not 4D Space-Time. So it would be 5D Space-Time. But your premise is interesting.
We don't understand 3D space either, we are just used to it. But all investigation you can do in 3D, you can also do in 4D as long as you have properly determined your dimensions.
It's easy for us to visualize 2D Space as Flat. The 2 Der would not be able to see his 2D Space as Flat. He cannot get out of his 2D box. When the 2Der looks around he sees a solid Universe with beautiful Depth and Width. Similarly us 3Ders cannot see our 3D Space as being Flat. We are stuck inside our 3D box. A 4Der would have no trouble seeing 3D as Flat.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:28 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:10 am
SteveKlinko" wrote: I am talking about a 4D Physical Space which would make Time the 5th dimension.
The original singularity was 3D and all space-time wrapped around its infinite density. There in no greater 4th dimension with time moving through it, as the singularity could not exist.

Show me your alternative mathematics.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
The current Universe is of course 3D. This topic is about what if the Universe was 4D? It's a hypothetical question.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Poodle » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:42 pm

Please send your responses on a hyperpostcard.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:15 pm

SteveKlinko" wrote: The current Universe is of course 3D. This topic is about what if the Universe was 4D? It's a hypothetical question.
The Super-String hypothesis, with 11 dimensions offers a unified mechanism for the "Strong" "Weak" and "electro-magnetic" forces. It is a Grand Unification Theory. (GUT)

What does your hypothetical "larger fourth dimension" solve and how does it account for the nuclear forces?

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:01 pm

Poodle wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:42 pm
Please send your responses on a hyperpostcard.
A Hyperpostcard would ideally be a three dimensional object in 4D Space, just s a Postcard is ideally a 2D object in 3D Space. Each postcard would actually have a small extension into the remaining Dimension for it to have any reality in the respective Space. Even though a Hyperpostcard is 3D it would look Flat to a 4Der.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:41 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:15 pm
SteveKlinko" wrote: The current Universe is of course 3D. This topic is about what if the Universe was 4D? It's a hypothetical question.
The Super-String hypothesis, with 11 dimensions offers a unified mechanism for the "Strong" "Weak" and "electro-magnetic" forces. It is a Grand Unification Theory. (GUT)

What does your hypothetical "larger fourth dimension" solve and how does it account for the nuclear forces?
This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level, like Visualizing a Tesseract (simple empty box) for example. At an even more elementary level how can a 3D Human Mind Visualize the fact that 3D objects will look Flat to a 4Der in 4D Space? The Tesseract sides are constructed from 8 such Flat 3D objects.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:28 am

SteveKlinko wrote: This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level,
Sooooo as the larger 4th dimension doesn't exist, humans struggle to imagine it.

Is that like imagining a fire breathing fish?
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Poodle » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:41 am

A fire-breathing fish gyring and gimballing in the wabe, no less.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Skeptic1001 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:36 am

My thought on 3D vs 4D is that every dimension isn't perceptible to the lower ranked dimension preceding it and that you can't use the difference between the 2ND and 3RD dimensions to understand the difference between the 3RD and 4TH dimensions. A 4D existence is imperceptible and we couldn't exist there because the entire physics of a 4TH dimension would not be suited to what we observe scientifically in this 3RD dimension. A 4TH dimension could very well be tethered to this 3RD dimension and operate intricately with it in a codependent existence, disallowing exploration of it much like exploring your own blood vessels could have disasterous consequences.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Cadmusteeth » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:07 pm

Why do you assume it's a plain of existence rather than just a property of the larger universe?

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by gorgeous » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:31 pm

seth---------I will go into this in a later chapter, but in a very real manner, space as you perceive it simply does not exist. Not only is the illusion of space caused by your own physical perceptive mechanisms, but it is also caused by mental patterns that you have accepted - patterns that are adopted by consciousness when it reaches a certain stage of "evolution" within your system.
------Your planetary systems exist at once, simultaneously, both in time and in space. The universe that you seem to perceive, either visually or through instruments, appears to be composed of galaxies, stars, and planets, at various distances from you. Basically, however, this is an illusion. Your senses and your very existence as physical creatures program you to perceive the universe in such a way. The universe as you know it is your interpretation of events as they intrude upon your three-dimensional reality. The events are mental. This does not mean that you cannot travel to other planets, for example, within that physical universe, any more than it means that you cannot use tables to hold books, glasses, and oranges, although the table has no solid qualities of its own.
When I enter your system, I move through a series of mental and psychic events. You would interpret these events as space and time, and so often I must use the terms, for I must use your language rather than my own.--------------------When I enter your system, I intrude into three-dimensional reality, and you must interpret what happens in the light of your own root assumptions. Now whether or not you realize it, each of you intrudes into other systems of reality in your dream states without the full participation of your normally conscious self. In subjective experience you leave behind physical existence and act, at times, with strong purpose and creative-----validity within dreams that you forget the instant you awaken.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Poodle » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:53 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:31 pm
... space as you perceive it simply does not exist.
... Your planetary systems exist at once, simultaneously, both in time and in space.
Clever lad, this Seth.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by gorgeous » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:54 pm

seth----You would interpret these events as space and time, and so often I must use the terms
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Poodle » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:04 pm

seth ..... You would interpret these events as BS and lies, and so that's exactly what I'm giving you.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:36 am

gorgeous wrote: seth---------I will go into this in a later chapter,
There was no further chapter. Jane Roberts died of alcoholism and that was the end of Seth, the fictional channeled alien created by Jane Roberts.

(The books are on the internet and Gorgeous simply copies and pastes entire paragraphs here, as Gorgeous can't string sentences together himself. )
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Gord » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:41 pm
This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level, like Visualizing a Tesseract (simple empty box) for example.
Wait, what? People can visualise a tesseract. That's how we understand the concept.

Here, let me repost the link I gave (it's up above, the very first response to your opening post in this thread), but this time I'll narrow down the link to a specific spot about tesseracts:

https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/teaching ... .html#four
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:10 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:28 am
SteveKlinko wrote: This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level,
Sooooo as the larger 4th dimension doesn't exist, humans struggle to imagine it.

Is that like imagining a fire breathing fish?
:lol: :lol:
So now you think that talking about a 4D Universe is funny? Your not a serious Skeptic.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 pm

Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:41 pm
This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level, like Visualizing a Tesseract (simple empty box) for example.
Wait, what? People can visualise a tesseract. That's how we understand the concept.

Here, let me repost the link I gave (it's up above, the very first response to your opening post in this thread), but this time I'll narrow down the link to a specific spot about tesseracts:

https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/teaching ... .html#four
A Tesseract is a simple Empty Box in 4D. Its sides are all Flat, there is no thickness to any of the sides as is always shown in that self eating monstrosity of a Model that folds in on itself as it rotates. That Model also shows no "Inside" space, only sides. There is nothing folding in on itself with a Tesseract. This Model is useless for understanding what the Tesseract really is ... a Simple Empty Box. The purpose of the Model is to show connectivity of the sides at the expense of any kind of true representation of what a Tesseract is. A 4Der would have no problem seeing the simplicity of the Tesseract. Because we can only study Slices or Projections of the Tesseract we make it much more complicated than it really is. Because we have a 3D Brain and are stuck in this 3D Universe we cannot really understand how the Slices or Projections relate to the actual 4D Tesseract. It is a shortcoming of a 3D Brain. We are not smart enough. We would need a 4D Brain to see the Tesseract as it really is in 4D Space.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:58 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 pm
Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:41 pm
This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level, like Visualizing a Tesseract (simple empty box) for example.
Wait, what? People can visualise a tesseract. That's how we understand the concept.

Here, let me repost the link I gave (it's up above, the very first response to your opening post in this thread), but this time I'll narrow down the link to a specific spot about tesseracts:

https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/teaching ... .html#four
A Tesseract is a simple Empty Box in 4D. Its sides are all Flat, there is no thickness to any of the sides as is always shown in that self eating monstrosity of a Model that folds in on itself as it rotates. That Model also shows no "Inside" space, only sides. There is nothing folding in on itself with a Tesseract. This Model is useless for understanding what the Tesseract really is ... a Simple Empty Box. The purpose of the Model is to show connectivity of the sides at the expense of any kind of true representation of what a Tesseract is....
You do realise that "monstrosity" you're complaining about is a 2D model of a 3D model of a tesseract, right? It's an attempt to help you help yourself conceive something. It's only useless if you don't or can't use it for what it is.
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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:42 am

SteveKlinko post wrote: So now you think that talking about a 4D Universe is funny? Your not a serious Skeptic.
No I think you are an idiot. We already know the universe doesn't have a larger physical 4th dimension. If it did then there could not have been an initial singularity that completely curved space time around itself.

You really don't have a clue about science at all, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by Dimebag » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:29 am

Imagine yourself as a flatlander in the 2d universe. Now imagine a cube passing through that plane of the 2d flatlanders, imagine the shape which appears as it passes through the plane. To the flatlanders, the shape would seem impossible or nonsensical, it would seem to change over time in an unimaginable way. Now bring yourself back to our normal 3D world, and try to imagine a 4d shape passing through our 3 spatial dimensions, we would face the same conundrum as the flatlanders. Notice though, that in order for a shape of a higher dimension to appear in a lower dimension fully it requires time for it to be shown

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:22 pm

Gord wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 pm
Gord wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:41 pm
This thread is about the Human inability to understand a 4D Space at even an elementary level, like Visualizing a Tesseract (simple empty box) for example.
Wait, what? People can visualise a tesseract. That's how we understand the concept.

Here, let me repost the link I gave (it's up above, the very first response to your opening post in this thread), but this time I'll narrow down the link to a specific spot about tesseracts:

https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/teaching ... .html#four
A Tesseract is a simple Empty Box in 4D. Its sides are all Flat, there is no thickness to any of the sides as is always shown in that self eating monstrosity of a Model that folds in on itself as it rotates. That Model also shows no "Inside" space, only sides. There is nothing folding in on itself with a Tesseract. This Model is useless for understanding what the Tesseract really is ... a Simple Empty Box. The purpose of the Model is to show connectivity of the sides at the expense of any kind of true representation of what a Tesseract is....
You do realise that "monstrosity" you're complaining about is a 2D model of a 3D model of a tesseract, right? It's an attempt to help you help yourself conceive something. It's only useless if you don't or can't use it for what it is.
It' on a 2D screen but it is a good 3D representation. A 3D representation is all we can ever do. We will never be able to see the Tesseract as a simple empty box. The Flatness of each of the 8 3D sides that make up the Tesseract completely eludes our ability to Visualize it. We need 4D Brains for that.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:26 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:42 am
SteveKlinko post wrote: So now you think that talking about a 4D Universe is funny? Your not a serious Skeptic.
No I think you are an idiot. We already know the universe doesn't have a larger physical 4th dimension. If it did then there could not have been an initial singularity that completely curved space time around itself.

You really don't have a clue about science at all, do you?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Not our current Universe. The thread is about a Hypothetical 4D Universe. I only explain this to you because your Shallow thought processes are limiting you once again.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by landrew » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:26 pm

What is the 4th dimension? Some say it's time, but I was never comfortable with that definition.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:32 pm

Dimebag wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:29 am
Imagine yourself as a flatlander in the 2d universe. Now imagine a cube passing through that plane of the 2d flatlanders, imagine the shape which appears as it passes through the plane. To the flatlanders, the shape would seem impossible or nonsensical, it would seem to change over time in an unimaginable way. Now bring yourself back to our normal 3D world, and try to imagine a 4d shape passing through our 3 spatial dimensions, we would face the same conundrum as the flatlanders. Notice though, that in order for a shape of a higher dimension to appear in a lower dimension fully it requires time for it to be shown
I have looked at and thought about Slices, which is what you are talking about, and projections for years. These methods give some insight but ultimately are unsatisfying when you really try to understand 4D. I have narrowed it down to trying to understand and Visualize, in some way, how a 3D Object will look Flat in 4D Space. I can understand Mathematically how the 3D Object is Flat in 4D, but I cannot really wrap my 3D Mind around it from the perspective of being a 4D Being in 4D Space.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:39 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:26 pm
What is the 4th dimension? Some say it's time, but I was never comfortable with that definition.
There is no 4th dimension in our 3D Universe. It was a big mistake when they said that Time was the 4th dimension. Scientists never meant that Time was a 4th dimension of Space, but that Time was the 4th variable in a Mathematical Manifold of Space-Time. We are talking about the hypothetical possibility that the Universe could have been 4D. Then Time would be the 5th dimension. They really should have designated Time as the 0th dimension, in which case a lot of confusion could have been avoided.

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Re: Why Humans Will Never Understand 4D Space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:31 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:32 pm
Dimebag wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:29 am
Imagine yourself as a flatlander in the 2d universe. Now imagine a cube passing through that plane of the 2d flatlanders, imagine the shape which appears as it passes through the plane. To the flatlanders, the shape would seem impossible or nonsensical, it would seem to change over time in an unimaginable way. Now bring yourself back to our normal 3D world, and try to imagine a 4d shape passing through our 3 spatial dimensions, we would face the same conundrum as the flatlanders. Notice though, that in order for a shape of a higher dimension to appear in a lower dimension fully it requires time for it to be shown
I have looked at and thought about Slices, which is what you are talking about, and projections for years. These methods give some insight but ultimately are unsatisfying when you really try to understand 4D. I have narrowed it down to trying to understand and Visualize, in some way, how a 3D Object will look Flat in 4D Space. I can understand Mathematically how the 3D Object is Flat in 4D, but I cannot really wrap my 3D Mind around it from the perspective of being a 4D Being in 4D Space.
OOPS!

A 3D object in 4D space is still 3D, not 2D (flat). A 4D object in 5D space is still 4D. Objects don't lose dimensions by being in the presence of additional dimensions.

We can't visualize more than 3 dimensions, but we can understand them. At least, some of us can.
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