The Beeeeeeeeees....

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Gord
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:39 am

TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:That says "high doses". But I already knew about that from other sources. It's not a secret.
The newly revealed studies show Syngenta’s thiamethoxam and Bayer’s clothianidin seriously harmed colonies at high doses, but did not find significant effects below concentrations of 50 parts per billion (ppb) and 40ppb respectively. Such levels can sometimes be found in fields but concentrations are usually below 10ppb.
It's not considered relevant because those concentrations aren't reached when applied properly to the fields. It's like saying high concentrations of water can harm humans, so Nestle should have released that information when they started selling bottled water.
Ahem... when did you ever see a farmer who could accurately measure ppbs and distinguish between 10 and 50? Applied properly means if a little is good, then a lot is better... at least more often than not.... :oldman:

And... the article pointed out that these were `house` bees - not being stressed by `work` and other pathogens/chemicals in the field, so could withstand the higher test concentrations....
I knew farmers when I was young. Farmers don't need to be able to count, they use machines. Just push the knob. Plus they're cheap bastards who will only apply the minimum amount they can to get the result they expect. And when they use too little and don't get the result, they call their insurance company.
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TJrandom
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:36 am

Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:That says "high doses". But I already knew about that from other sources. It's not a secret.
The newly revealed studies show Syngenta’s thiamethoxam and Bayer’s clothianidin seriously harmed colonies at high doses, but did not find significant effects below concentrations of 50 parts per billion (ppb) and 40ppb respectively. Such levels can sometimes be found in fields but concentrations are usually below 10ppb.
It's not considered relevant because those concentrations aren't reached when applied properly to the fields. It's like saying high concentrations of water can harm humans, so Nestle should have released that information when they started selling bottled water.
Ahem... when did you ever see a farmer who could accurately measure ppbs and distinguish between 10 and 50? Applied properly means if a little is good, then a lot is better... at least more often than not.... :oldman:

And... the article pointed out that these were `house` bees - not being stressed by `work` and other pathogens/chemicals in the field, so could withstand the higher test concentrations....
I knew farmers when I was young. Farmers don't need to be able to count, they use machines. Just push the knob. Plus they're cheap bastards who will only apply the minimum amount they can to get the result they expect. And when they use too little and don't get the result, they call their insurance company.
Yes... but that stuff comes in a gallon, or a 5 gallon, or possibly even larger quantity - and then needs to be cut to ppbs - and that requires math, an eye dropper, tanks, and of course water. Lets see... at 50ppb, 1 cc of the concentrate needs 20 cubic meters of water. While at the 10 ppb, it needs 100 cubic meters of water. So most farmers can`t even do the math, much less have the equipment (storage tank) for that volume of water. Of course they might use a syringe and measure in mls...

My guess is that they have a 50, 100, or maybe even a 200 or 300 gallon tank on their sprayer - and use that to mix in the concentrate - pouring in a cup or so of the stuff right from the original container, and wind up way over the limit. After all - they are protecting their crop - not bees.

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Angel
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Angel » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:11 pm

I removed what I was told was
golden rod from the garden yesterday
and the bees went with it.
Are you proud of yourselves yet?
Being the big bully's that you are.
So you can break my heart. Big Deal.
May you all rest in my peace <3
Has A Nice Day :lol: <3

Ps ~ if you know who I am then why do you treat us so?

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OlegTheBatty
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:57 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:That says "high doses". But I already knew about that from other sources. It's not a secret.
The newly revealed studies show Syngenta’s thiamethoxam and Bayer’s clothianidin seriously harmed colonies at high doses, but did not find significant effects below concentrations of 50 parts per billion (ppb) and 40ppb respectively. Such levels can sometimes be found in fields but concentrations are usually below 10ppb.
It's not considered relevant because those concentrations aren't reached when applied properly to the fields. It's like saying high concentrations of water can harm humans, so Nestle should have released that information when they started selling bottled water.
Ahem... when did you ever see a farmer who could accurately measure ppbs and distinguish between 10 and 50? Applied properly means if a little is good, then a lot is better... at least more often than not.... :oldman:

And... the article pointed out that these were `house` bees - not being stressed by `work` and other pathogens/chemicals in the field, so could withstand the higher test concentrations....
I knew farmers when I was young. Farmers don't need to be able to count, they use machines. Just push the knob. Plus they're cheap bastards who will only apply the minimum amount they can to get the result they expect. And when they use too little and don't get the result, they call their insurance company.
Yes... but that stuff comes in a gallon, or a 5 gallon, or possibly even larger quantity - and then needs to be cut to ppbs - and that requires math, an eye dropper, tanks, and of course water. Lets see... at 50ppb, 1 cc of the concentrate needs 20 cubic meters of water. While at the 10 ppb, it needs 100 cubic meters of water. So most farmers can`t even do the math, much less have the equipment (storage tank) for that volume of water. Of course they might use a syringe and measure in mls...

My guess is that they have a 50, 100, or maybe even a 200 or 300 gallon tank on their sprayer - and use that to mix in the concentrate - pouring in a cup or so of the stuff right from the original container, and wind up way over the limit. After all - they are protecting their crop - not bees.
The concentration in the sprayer is not the same as the residual concentration that bees would encounter gathering pollen or nectar. The bees are exposed to concentrations that have been modified by:

1. plant absorption and metabolism rates
2. modification by soil organisms
3. modification by soil chemistry
4. irrigation/rainfall

I don't know the soil chemistry of the neonicotenoids, but to give an example, a 7% solution of glyphosate reduces to a concentration of about 1.5g/ha within a few seconds of exposure to the soil (which does not reduce further, in spite of what Monsanto claims).
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Gord
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:36 am

I still don't know. But at least I can watch videos like this and know I'm not alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdnW8ldDoZU
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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landrew
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:20 pm

Angel wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:11 pm
I removed what I was told was
golden rod from the garden yesterday
and the bees went with it.
I believe goldenrod is an indigenous species, and most others are introduced.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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TJrandom
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:55 pm

landrew wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:20 pm
Angel wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:11 pm
I removed what I was told was
golden rod from the garden yesterday
and the bees went with it.
I believe goldenrod is an indigenous species, and most others are introduced.
Most others? What others? Goldenrod is indigenous to many countries around the world.

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landrew
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:02 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:55 pm
landrew wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:20 pm
Angel wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:11 pm
I removed what I was told was
golden rod from the garden yesterday
and the bees went with it.
I believe goldenrod is an indigenous species, and most others are introduced.
Most others? What others? Goldenrod is indigenous to many countries around the world.
I believe many species of goldenrod exist around the world. Perhaps the bees were attracted to a form that had been indigenous to North America, and they had forged a firmer evolutionary link with it than the introduced species.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Goldenrod at this time of year for northern hemisphere honeybees is essential to their ability to over-winter. There are few other sources of pollen at this time, which they need to feed their larva throughout the winter months. Having already stored honey, they are now foraging for pollen.

Yesterday at one of my `away` apiaries, I set sticky paper rat traps to catch giant hornets...