The Beeeeeeeeees....

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The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:54 am

People keep asking me to sign petitions against neonics. I refuse, because I don't know enough about what's killing the bees.

So.... What's killing the bees? Where can I find some quality information on the subject of bee deaths and pesticides?
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:23 am

I help a friend into bee keeping getting me a gallon or so of local honey every year. He has had no problems with his bees (isolated in surburbia) but his suppliers and other friends do have on going collapses here and there. There is no consensus. Most often that means the bees are stressed from many variables. If it were only one thing, it would have been isolated by now. Neoniconoids is only one stressor. Reality comes in bunches.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:57 pm

Thanks, but I was hoping for some links to some quality information, ya dink. :P Who's studying this in a neutral manner? Who's publishing in respected/respectable, peer-reviewed journals? That sort of stuff.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:12 pm

I was too vague huh? There is NO SINGLE SOURCE of reputable definite answers. I've been following the issue for about 10 years now. Its like the health benefits of coffee. We email each other and a few others back and forth each time a new supposition is made public. Take your choice: mites, pollution, fungus, over worked, insecticides (any and all of them) and so forth.

You can have your pick. Have you even tried to google?
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:01 pm

In-for-ma-tion. I'm not asking for definite answers; I'm looking for in-for-ma-tion. Quality in-for-ma-tion.

Of course I {!#%@} tried google you {!#%@}. The internet is full of garbage, and I'm not interested in sifting through the mucous that google spits out in order to find the useful crumbs. That's why I'm here on a skeptic site asking if anyone has any links to sources of quality in-for-ma-tion.

But please by all means, keep telling me you don't have anything worthwhile to post. It's all I'll expect from you anyway.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:39 pm

You're funny.

Unintentionally, and thinking otherwise.

but still funny.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:43 pm

For Bee Lovers everywhere who are Google Handicapped:

http://www.epa.gov/pollinator-protectio ... 0happening

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... for-cause/

Who looks but cannot find?
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Poodle » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Yech!! - what do THOSE guys know?

We need information from the bees themselves. How do they feel about it all? Do they have a hive central discussion group looking into the situation? What are THEY going to do about it?

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:06 am

Poodle wrote:Yech!! - what do THOSE guys know?

What guys?
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:12 am

I should have added that for this search I used (colony collapse) and found the EPA website on the first or second page. Then I searched for (colony collapse disorder cause scientific america). Whatever anyone thinks is an authoritative source may be searched that way.

Gord: Its often true I will do a google search on a subject one month and not turn up anything of interest. Then, a month later, I search again and find exactly what I want. Its the search terms. You have to luck upon the one that brings forth the desired info.

But it is also timing. An excellent one happened with Poodle a while back searching for a graph or chart (two good search terms) on how many Muslims support Jihad. A search on day one returned nothing but a week later using the same search terms provided exactly what I wanted and the source was 2 days old.

Won't be long before Big Blue will reach out from the Cloud and provide its Massive AI for all our cookies to aid our searches. We won't have to know nothing...............
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Lausten » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:19 am

Gord wrote:
Poodle wrote:Yech!! - what do THOSE guys know?

What guys?

Okay, I can understand being a little google challenged on this one, but he gave you links. The EPA states that although the declines were frightening a while ago, but they have stabilized over the last 5 years or so. You will never hear this from the anti-neonic people, because they want your money as well as your signature. This is likely to be one of those issues that just won't end, even after the problem is gone. People want to blame chemical companies.

I'll see if I can find something, but part of the problem that is also not mentioned by eco-sensitive people, is the problem is mostly with the hybrid bees used in agriculture. You can buy these bees and get your hive started. It's always been a challenge to keep them alive through the winter. Part of the problem is they found a good hybrid strain and just kept selling it. Basically the lesson learned from the Irish potato famine was ignored. But, getting you to send money to a group because an industrial hybrid system that supports mono-culture is failing doesn't play too well, so it's "chemicals are killing our bees!"
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Lausten » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:25 am

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Monster » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:29 am

Poodle wrote:Yech!! - what do THOSE guys know?

We need information from the bees themselves. How do they feel about it all? Do they have a hive central discussion group looking into the situation? What are THEY going to do about it?

I was about to post "Did anyone think to ask the bees?" :)
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:35 am

Link goes to Encyclopedia Britannica. I don't recall visiting that website before. Nice to see it. Some good quizzes to take on the site as well.

Good catch.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:30 am

Lausten wrote:
Gord wrote:
Poodle wrote:Yech!! - what do THOSE guys know?

What guys?

Okay, I can understand being a little google challenged on this one, but he gave you links.

Ohhh. That makes sense. I finally put him on ignore, and he decides to post some links. :roll:

Okay, thanks, I'll check them out.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:46 am

Image
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:24 am



I could only see 100 words... but wanted to note that it also affects Apis Cerana (the Asia bee).

And, elsewhere here I posted an article that said it affects people too - no, not with CCD, but with other symptoms.

I don`t think there is a way to find unbiased information - much like Climate Change, there being so much money involved. As a beekeeper, I just live with the results - deaths of hives following arial spraying, but springtime replenishment from swarms in the mountains that are more than the 5km away from crops. I have 4 hives with bees at this point, where 10+ years ago I would have had 20 or so. Many of my bee association members haven`t had bees for several years now.

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:14 am

TJrandom wrote:I don`t think there is a way to find unbiased information - much like Climate Change, there being so much money involved.

Why not? Are you saying there's also no way to find unbiased information on climate change? :befuddled:
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:21 am

Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t think there is a way to find unbiased information - much like Climate Change, there being so much money involved.

Why not? Are you saying there's also no way to find unbiased information on climate change? :befuddled:


Did I say that? I must have been affected by neonics - or channelling Sourbean. No, I don`t own a cat…. :purplex:

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:22 am

Biased or not information is really worthwhile or not according to its accuracy. Some points are conceded/accepted by all regardless of bias or not: eg: bee colonies are collapsing. Bias or not, thats a fact Jack. Could be right or wrong. We take it as probably truthful because "the consensus of qualified scientists/sources agree."

Same with Climate change.

Just look.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:18 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t think there is a way to find unbiased information - much like Climate Change, there being so much money involved.

Why not? Are you saying there's also no way to find unbiased information on climate change? :befuddled:

Did I say that? I must have been affected by neonics - or channelling Sourbean. No, I don`t own a cat…. :purplex:

Then you must be a cat! :cat:
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:12 am

TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I don`t think there is a way to find unbiased information - much like Climate Change, there being so much money involved.

Why not? Are you saying there's also no way to find unbiased information on climate change? :befuddled:

Did I say that?

I, uh, ...I don't know. But I was hoping one of us would! :P
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:03 pm

Some progress in eliminating neonics....

Ortho said it has already removed neonicotinoids from the majority of its products used to control garden pests and diseases. It plans to remove it from all the rest in two to five years.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/garden-care- ... html?nhp=1

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:40 pm

I still haven't seen any evidence (that I trust) to indicate banning neonics will help the beeeees. "They" keep sending me petitions to sign, and I keep not signing them. (I get sent a lot of petitions; if I research them and find them worthwhile, I sign them, but so far no anti-neonics petitions have my signature on them.)
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:23 am

Not supposed to help the bees - but rather help mankind....

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:05 am

Yeah but I like the bees. Mankind can eat a bleep.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:50 am

This research article describes a reduced sperm viability and reduced drone lifespan caused by neonicotinoid pesticides. The implications are that queen bees fail at a faster rate and that worker bees simply are not born.

IMO – this may indeed be part of the problem, but not the whole story. Beekeepers generally inspect a hive every two weeks, and look for newly laid eggs as well as developing larva. Since non-fertilised eggs result in drones, an abundance of drones or a premature switch to drones would be consistent with defective sperm. However, in CCD, the common observation is that the hive is empty – meaning a sudden loss, and not a wind-down to more drones.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 5/20160506

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:07 am

Bees in bonnets... they clearly have been abducted. I think we figured out the meaning of all that probing.
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:39 am

What about Varroa mites and Deformed Wing Virus?

http://marketbusinessnews.com/honeybee- ... ons/123806
The honeybee pandemic that has decimated bee populations globally...Deformed Wing Virus cases that have devastated hives worldwide...on their own, they are not serious threats to bee populations...the combination is devastating, and has killed off several million honeybees over recent decades....
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:01 pm

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Poodle » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:05 pm

Whatever it is, there's a lot less of them AGAIN this year. There used to be a hive or two somewhere near me because they used to descend en masse onto the clover in the lawn. They don't do that now so I have no excuse not to mow the lawn more often. Apart from that, I've noticed that my jalapenos are being fertilised by hover flies.

And it's not only honey bees. There is a marked absence of bumble bees this year too, although they wouldn't fit into jalapeno flowers anyway. Even so, I rather like bumble bees.

And no wasps. I've tried hard but I simply cannot summon up any liking for wasps. I feel terrible about that :roll: .

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:18 pm

Gord wrote:What about Varroa mites and Deformed Wing Virus?

http://marketbusinessnews.com/honeybee- ... ons/123806
The honeybee pandemic that has decimated bee populations globally...Deformed Wing Virus cases that have devastated hives worldwide...on their own, they are not serious threats to bee populations...the combination is devastating, and has killed off several million honeybees over recent decades....
Those two have been with bees and beekeepers for a long time - way before CCD. And beekeepers have standard methods to deal with them. That isn`t to say that they couldn`t be complicit, when additional stressors are present, such as neonics. But maybe importantly, those two are not man-made.

Edit… (Having read the linked article.) I have never heard of either, or both of these in combination causing a colony collapse, which is suggested by the article. Stopping the international trade in bees will not stop these two, since they are already spread world-wide. This said, I see no reason why the international trade should continue, since it is relatively easy to produce `nucs` (nucleus kits for new hives – fertilised queen and sufficient worker bees to start a hive).

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:35 pm

They're being spread by human transportation of bees, though. And they haven't been with us that long, according to the maps I've seen.

...wait, I didn't post the link to the second article, dammit....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... -theories/
In the United States, by contrast, regulators are moving more slowly. A big new report (pdf) out Thursday from the Agriculture Department and the Environmental Protection Agency argued there were a wide variety of reasons for the disappearance of U.S. honeybees since 2006. Neonicotinoids are only one possible factor. Here's the summary:

--Consensus is building that a complex set of stressors and pathogens is associated with [colony collapse disorder], and researchers are increasingly using multi-factorial approaches to studying causes of colony losses.

--The parasitic mite Varroa destructor remains the single most detrimental pest of honey bees, and is closely associated with overwintering colony declines

--Multiple virus species have been associated with [colony collapse disorder].

--The bacterial disease European foulbrood is being detected more often in the U.S. and may be linked to colony loss.

--Nutrition has a major impact on individual bee and colony longevity.

--Acute and sublethal effects of pesticides on honey bees have been increasingly documented, and are a primary concern. Further tier 2 (semi-field conditions) and tier 3 (field conditions) research is required to establish the risks associated with pesticide exposure to U.S. honey bee declines in general.

The report emphasized the fact that the contribution of pesticides still needs further study: "It is not clear, based on current research, whether pesticide exposure is a major factor associated with U.S. honey bee health declines in general, or specifically affects production of honey or delivery of pollination services."
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:48 pm

Isle of Wight disease (deformed wing) - since the early 1900`s - but now spread world-wide. Would isolating continents cause a drop? This I don`t know, but like Starlings, my guess is that once spread, it is there to stay.

My guess is that US regulators are moving slowly because of the benefits obtained from neonics - though those benefits aren`t shared by beekeepers. I have heard that France banned neonics some years ago, and no longer suffers from CCD.

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:03 pm

Well. it looks like my word-of-mouth on France was incorrect, since it appears that France and the EU is just taking action in 2012/13. So far I haven’t found evidence that a ban on neonics has actually stopped CCD.

http://inhabitat.com/france-proposes-ba ... -disorder/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:17 pm

Minnesota rocks… new restrictions on neonicotinoids which require a farmer to demonstrate "an imminent threat of significant crop loss" before using neonicotinoids.

Of course it may be easy to do this, so it may not become a restriction in practice.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/minnesota-se ... ector.html

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:35 am

More on neonics…. obtained under FOI search of manufacturers previously non-disclosed research.

Pesticide manufacturers' own tests reveal serious harm to honeybees

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -honeybees

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Gord » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:46 am

That says "high doses". But I already knew about that from other sources. It's not a secret.
The newly revealed studies show Syngenta’s thiamethoxam and Bayer’s clothianidin seriously harmed colonies at high doses, but did not find significant effects below concentrations of 50 parts per billion (ppb) and 40ppb respectively. Such levels can sometimes be found in fields but concentrations are usually below 10ppb.
It's not considered relevant because those concentrations aren't reached when applied properly to the fields. It's like saying high concentrations of water can harm humans, so Nestle should have released that information when they started selling bottled water.
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TJrandom
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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by TJrandom » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:54 am

Gord wrote:That says "high doses". But I already knew about that from other sources. It's not a secret.
The newly revealed studies show Syngenta’s thiamethoxam and Bayer’s clothianidin seriously harmed colonies at high doses, but did not find significant effects below concentrations of 50 parts per billion (ppb) and 40ppb respectively. Such levels can sometimes be found in fields but concentrations are usually below 10ppb.
It's not considered relevant because those concentrations aren't reached when applied properly to the fields. It's like saying high concentrations of water can harm humans, so Nestle should have released that information when they started selling bottled water.
Ahem... when did you ever see a farmer who could accurately measure ppbs and distinguish between 10 and 50? Applied properly means if a little is good, then a lot is better... at least more often than not.... :oldman:

And... the article pointed out that these were `house` bees - not being stressed by `work` and other pathogens/chemicals in the field, so could withstand the higher test concentrations....

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Re: The Beeeeeeeeees....

Post by Angel » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:19 pm

Are they really dying off?
Or are the just moving to a better
food source?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ling-math/
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