Machining

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: ... If I have one glass of alcohol. my performance skill rapidly deteriorates.
I thoroughly recommend drinking it in a more diluted form - wine, beer, whisky, that kind of thing. Drinking pure alcohol is not conducive to sweet music-making.

(Note to self: This explains a lot).

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: I just read this article, which does a lot of debunking concerning resonance and electric guitars.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns ... _tone.html
He makes a little mistake:
Now here are some general rules about materials. The denser a material, the more efficiently it transfers vibrations from one place to another. This results in better sustain, because the vibrations which are propagated into a string take longer to die out.
Stiffness, not density. Especially wen you are streching stringz with variable loadz on them. Gold iz dens. Led iz dens. Mercury iz dens!
It make the following fundamental points. Firstly the pickups only react to the movement of the electric strings and nothing else. ( Fair enough). Therefore if the strings only "touch" the guitar at the bridge and top nut, then how in hell can sustain in the body of the guitar effect the vibration of the strings. If the strings are already vibrating at 440Mhz "A4" then any additional wave form, from the body of the guitar, added to the 440MHz, will cause deteriorating additional frequency modulations.
How much the neck flexez affects how long the stringz will vibrate. But really, the major factor iz friction with the air. An interesting side note on that - an electric gitar will work in space!

Also, in addition to abzorbing vibration (turning it into heat) the flexing neck will change the distance the stringz are from the pickup at any instant at wutever frequensy the neck iz vibrating at, wich will not be the same az any uv the stringz.
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:48 am

what a lame discussion :D

unless it is isolated in accordance with the vibration theory, all material conduct/transmit vibration;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration

that's why vibrations some kilometers deep down in the earth cause earthquakes on the surface

so, if you would like your guitar body not to transmit any vibration to its fretboard through bridge and body or from neck to the body through fretboard, you should design & install a spring-damper between body and fretboard; just like the ones in suspensions of cars :D

that would be silly, because only an ignorant would try to do that :D

all material have some damping and some spring effects (measured by coefficients)

"denser" is correct, "stiffness" is false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiffness

since vibrating strings are supported on the bridge and nut, all the vibrations created on the strings are transmitted from bridge to the body and then to the fretboard, or from nut to the body through fretboard

all these transferred/transmitted vibrations interact with each other (just like different waves on the water interact with each other) and constitutes the resultant sound quality or tone of the guitar

some nerds out there might have dug more into this and might have installed accelerometers on different parts of the body and fretboard to analyze the vibrations on good and bad guitars
Last edited by freebill on Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:03 am

I've found at last; matt is covering bohemian rhapsody with his band buddies :D

Last edited by freebill on Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:43 am

freebill wrote:what a lame discussion :D

unless it is isolated in accordance with the vibration theory, all material conduct/transmit vibration;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration

that's why vibrations some kilometers deep down in the earth cause earthquakes on the surface

so, if you would like your guitar body not to transmit any vibration to its fretboard through bridge and body or from neck to the body through fretboard, you should design & install a spring-damper between body and fretboard; just like the ones in suspensions of cars :D

that would be silly, because only an ignorant would try to do that :D

all material have some damping and some spring effects (measured by coefficients)

"denser" is correct, "stiffness" is false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiffness

since vibrating strings are supported on the bridge and nut, all the vibrations created on the strings are transmitted from bridge to the body and then to the fretboard, or from nut to the body through fretboard

all these transferred/transmitted vibrations interact with each other (just like different waves on the water interact with each other) and constitutes the resultant sound quality or tone of the guitar

some nerds out there might have dug more into this and might have installed accelerometers on different parts of the body and fretboard to analyze the vibrations on good and bad guitars
Well who's a clever boy? Now tell us what all that has to do with the effect those vibrations have on the signal produced by the electromagnetic pickups, and whether or not any such effect is significant. Because that's what we were talking about.

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:09 pm

freebill wrote:unless it is isolated in accordance with the vibration theory, all material conduct/transmit vibration;
Yes, but not equally well. Thats wut this lame conversation iz about.
"denser" is correct, "stiffness" is false
OK, hav a gitar nek made out uv led. Cast it to be sure its totally soft. (I'm not sure. maybe led duznt work harden)

Now, IF you can tune it, how long do you think it will stay in tune? Every time you pluk a string, its going to deform. Even the vibrating stringz mite deform it! Each oscilation will looz a little enerjy az it bendz the nek a wee bit. Even led haz a little flexibility, but its possible that it may not even be enuf for the thicker stringz wen they vibrate.
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:21 pm

so, once you're able to understand that the vibrations created on strings are transmitted/transferred to the body and fretboard, then you can understand that those vibrations can travel back to the strings again from body/fretboard

then those pickups can pick the vibrations "painted" by (or coming from) the body, fretboard and all other parts :D

it's bidirectional

additionally, since pickups are mounted on the body, they vibrate with the body as well, which can be regarded as secondary or tertiary; because although quite small, pickups would vibrate with respect to the strings

kapish?
Last edited by freebill on Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:39 pm

JO 753 wrote:
"denser" is correct, "stiffness" is false
OK, hav a gitar nek made out uv led. Cast it to be sure its totally soft. (I'm not sure. maybe led duznt work harden)

Now, IF you can tune it, how long do you think it will stay in tune? Every time you pluk a string, its going to deform. Even the vibrating stringz mite deform it! Each oscilation will looz a little enerjy az it bendz the nek a wee bit. Even led haz a little flexibility, but its possible that it may not even be enuf for the thicker stringz wen they vibrate.
:D so what?

even if lead neck deforms or does not perform good, it transfers vibrations better; we're talking about how denser materials transmit vibrations compared to less dense materials

is speed of sound the same in every medium?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:47 pm

I get it! Youre doing xouper impression!
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:08 pm

I haven't read that kilometer long article written by a lamer and linked by matt :D

it's just a waste of time :D

he says that the vibrations on the body of the guitar is dampened by the player's fleshy body :D

however, vibrations still continue to propagate on the thickness of the guitar body, with high amplitude on the front and with low amplitude on the back (due to some dampening effect by player's body)

how much high and how much low can only be revealed by accelerometers; not by your ears, senses etc. etc. :D
Last edited by freebill on Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:50 am

JO 753 wrote: He makes a little mistake: Stiffness, not density. Especially wen you are streching stringz with variable loadz on them. Gold iz dens. Led iz dens. Mercury iz dens!
Agreed. My Stratocaster has a brass nut and steel bridge, so they are "hard" and can convey vibrations. The frets are also brass, although some people go for gold or nickel.

As I mentioned before, I need to determine what the body of the guitar actually does, concerning string vibration. It must introduce other sub frequencies in addition to the 440MHZ of a pure "A4".

The whole basis of Frequency Modulated Synthesis ( Yamaha DX7) is that this doubling up introduces new harmonics. Therefore, logically, a guitarist would want the least interference from the body. However, deep down, I know I am wrong, so I need to ask a guitar expert.

Sound Synthesis Tutorial: FM Synthesis Explained

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:03 am

freebill wrote: ...even if lead neck deforms or does not perform good, it transfers vibrations better; we're talking about how denser materials transmit vibrations compared to less dense materials
Sorry Freebill - this is BS. Lead is a very poor transmitter of vibration

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:27 am

:D these kids have no idea about material properties like; hardness, geometric stiffness, material stiffness, toughness, etc. etc.

what is geometric stiffness? it is an extensive property: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiffness

what is material stiffness? the property you're talking about is actually the young's modulus of the material :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_modulus





why are you so stupid :D
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:31 am

Poodle wrote:
freebill wrote: ...even if lead neck deforms or does not perform good, it transfers vibrations better; we're talking about how denser materials transmit vibrations compared to less dense materials
Sorry Freebill - this is BS. Lead is a very poor transmitter of vibration
its density makes it a good vibration transmitter, it's young's modulus makes it a bad vibration transmitter :D

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:04 am

Ah - I see. So which one wins, do you think?

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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:09 am

freebill wrote: its density makes it a good vibration transmitter, it's young's modulus makes it a bad vibration transmitter :D
Freebill. You are too stupid to follow this conversation. Lead has no hard molecular latices and is used in sound absorption.
http://marsmetal.com/sheet-lead/sound-barriers/

Go away and play with Zeuzzz.
:mrgreen:

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Agreed. My Stratocaster has a brass nut and steel bridge, so they are "hard" and can convey vibrations. The frets are also brass, although some people go for gold or nickel.
Gold frets? Why? Gold iz very soft, even 14 carat. There are carbide frets, wich will probably last forever.
As I mentioned before, I need to determine what the body of the guitar actually does, concerning string vibration. It must introduce other sub frequencies in addition to the 440MHZ of a pure "A4".
By 'body' are you including the neck?
The whole basis of Frequency Modulated Synthesis ( Yamaha DX7) is that this doubling up introduces new harmonics. Therefore, logically, a guitarist would want the least interference from the body. However, deep down, I know I am wrong, so I need to ask a guitar expert.


Don't you hav sumthing that showz the sound az sine wavez like in the video? Seeing for yourself iz better than hearing opinionz and conclusionz.
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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:48 am

JO 753 wrote: Gold frets? Why? Gold iz very soft, even 14 carat. There are carbide frets, wich will probably last forever.
I don't know Jo 753. I assume "artistic look" rather than physics. Please remember that young guitarists also look at the fret board and look at the frets. That is why you have the traditional "dots" on the fret board.
download (18).jpg
JO 753 wrote:By 'body' are you including the neck?
Yes. My Ibanez Musician bass, is a "through neck" meaning it is the same bit of wood. There is no separate neck. However. it still has a truss rod for "bending the neck". I never ever touch that. That's for professionals to muck around with. ;)
Matthew wrote:The whole basis of Frequency Modulated Synthesis ( Yamaha DX7) is that this doubling up introduces new harmonics. Therefore, logically, a guitarist would want the least interference from the body. However, deep down, I know I am wrong, so I need to ask a guitar expert.
JO 753 wrote:Don't you hav sumthing that showz the sound az sine wavez like in the video? Seeing for yourself iz better than hearing opinionz and conclusionz.
That's a deep and meaningful question. Backstage, the roadies use "Strobe tuners". They only see the fundamental frequency of the individual string. They would not see sub frequencies. That would require equipment that is simply not affordable or useful on "the road".

It is easier to understand frequency modulation synthesis using oscillators rather than guitars. I found a good web page that explains why I think guitars have some sort of weird FM sub harmonics going on, using simple wave forms.
http://synthesizeracademy.com/fm-synthesis/
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
freebill wrote: its density makes it a good vibration transmitter, it's young's modulus makes it a bad vibration transmitter :D
Freebill. You are too stupid to follow this conversation. Lead has no hard molecular latices and is used in sound absorption.
http://marsmetal.com/sheet-lead/sound-barriers/

Go away and play with Zeuzzz.
:mrgreen:
really :D

the property in concern was density, not material stiffness; so it is isolating a property from all other that have an effect on vibration transmitting

why are you so stupid :D

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:05 am

a guitar/bass player who claims who had run rock bands for years, thinks that he should not touch the truss rod ever :D

body of the guitar and fretboard is affected by heat, moisture etc.; that's why there is that rod matt :D

don't be afraid, play with it :D

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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:32 am

freebill wrote:a guitar/bass player who claims who had run rock bands for years, thinks that he should not touch the truss rod ever
That's right Freebill. Generally the accountants and managers for bands don't change strings for the band, on the road, or adjust the guitar's neck.

Have you ever seen a live rock band?
:lol:

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Re: Machining

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:33 am

Back to 3D printing. If you've watch "Dawn of Humanity" on PBS/Nova, you can see them printing the skeleton of a (possibly) two million year old hominin. But the fun part is they used CT scans to get the data for the prints, and they've put those scans online. Lee Berger said that in one month they had over 150,000 downloads of those scans, a thousand times what they had expected. This means there's a lot of 3D printing going on in that one specialized field.
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Re: Machining

Post by TJrandom » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:24 pm

More importantly, what will happen when one of those skeletons gets dumped in the landfill, and later is discovered – along with contemporary items to prove said skeleton is recent. Lucy will have walked the earth once more. ;)

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:29 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
freebill wrote:a guitar/bass player who claims who had run rock bands for years, thinks that he should not touch the truss rod ever
That's right Freebill. Generally the accountants and managers for bands don't change strings for the band, on the road, or adjust the guitar's neck.

Have you ever seen a live rock band?
:lol:
you were talking about your own guitar :D

me too :D

you should have gained enough experience by now even by accounting their accounts :D

play with that rod matt, don't be so shy :lol:
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Re: Machining

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:38 pm

TJrandom wrote:More importantly, what will happen when one of those skeletons gets dumped in the landfill, and later is discovered – along with contemporary items to prove said skeleton is recent. Lucy will have walked the earth once more. ;)
Well, if they decide that our bones were made from plaster and accept the skeletons are legit they're going to get what's coming to them for being so lazy.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:30 pm

Pistonz.
[ytube][/ytube]

Not much machining, but its still kool.
[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:51 am

Made a ball joint for my car.
MAN BoL JOENT.JPG
Its the joint between the lower control arm and the weel hub assembly that enablez the steering and suspension to work. I woud hav just bought wun, but they arent available new. The O'Rielly'z autopart store coud get uzed wunz, but its just stoopid to spend 5 owrz chanjing frum a worn out part to wun that mite be worn out. Plus, it woud be likely to be the later 2 piece dezine that suks. You can see the orijinal and a 2 piece behind the new stainless steel wun.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:19 pm

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:02 pm

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:15 pm

How do they make that longitudinal "gouge" or channel in the shaft? In wood, it would be mostly by chisel.

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:24 pm

At a guess, bobbo, they'd mill it. If it was wood, it would also be milled if you're making a large number of the things.

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:27 pm

"Mill" doesn't mean anything to me. What tool/technique???

It can't be done by turning on a lathe which I assume is also "milling?" I doubt a quick google could turn up the answer to this.

Edit: the above said, makes me kinda doubt that milling is actually accurate.

mill1
mil/
verb
gerund or present participle: milling

1.
grind or crush (something) in a mill.

OH.... milling is basically wrong all around. ..... but I assume it has a modified meaning in the machining world?
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:06 pm

Mill iz correct.

Therez going to be a part 2 for that shaft in wich you will see him mill the slots.

Youre probably rite that Googling 'Mill' woud not get a quick ansr. The word iz uzed for so many different thingz that you coud spend a decade learning about it all.

Herez another vid thats showz a slot being milled on a milling machine with an endmill:

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:23 pm

Video stalls in my browser, but it looks like a side cutting drill bit? so....... "the bottom line" is that milling in technique and tool application is no different than woodworking. Main difference is everything in machining is diamond or carbide tipped whereas in wood it only need be hardened steel?

Being a long time wood worker, interesting in my mind I still envisioned hacking at the shaft with a cold chisel........ but I didn't think it would work.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:26 am

Wut, are you still on Windowz? HA!

I didnt watch that vid earlier. MAN, that drive iz noizy! Soundz like the belt iz about to die.

End Mills

Hi speed steel iz still the most common tool bit material in non production use. Its good for most materialz. Carbide iz expensive but haz all sorts uv advantajez.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:55 am

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Machining

Post by TJrandom » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"Mill" doesn't mean anything to me. What tool/technique???

It can't be done by turning on a lathe which I assume is also "milling?" I doubt a quick google could turn up the answer to this.

Edit: the above said, makes me kinda doubt that milling is actually accurate.

mill1
mil/
verb
gerund or present participle: milling

1.
grind or crush (something) in a mill.

OH.... milling is basically wrong all around. ..... but I assume it has a modified meaning in the machining world?
In wood, I would use a router...

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:21 am

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"Mill" doesn't mean anything to me. What tool/technique???

It can't be done by turning on a lathe which I assume is also "milling?" I doubt a quick google could turn up the answer to this.

Edit: the above said, makes me kinda doubt that milling is actually accurate.

mill1
mil/
verb
gerund or present participle: milling

1.
grind or crush (something) in a mill.

OH.... milling is basically wrong all around. ..... but I assume it has a modified meaning in the machining world?
In wood, I would use a router...
Until you posted that, I would have classed a router as a mill. Not so, I discover. Well spotted, TJ.

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:42 am

So, what does mill mean in wood working, and mental working if its different, other that "working on" or shaping?

I have a router, but first thought of my table saw mouted dadoo blade. Router makes much more sense. In a cradle, the table saw with a single blade could do it too. I just thought "chisel" because I watch a lot of "American Woodworker" where he does everything by hand saw and planes. fun to see how much could be done with such basic tools, "except" they do come down to the power of those metal tips.

Hand chiseling anything out of metal..... not a fun day in the shop.
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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:52 am

I assume boys from the USA, like us Aussies and English did woodwork and metal work at primary school.

I thought is was a good thing, not only for the basic skills, but as an introduction to the real world of finishing physical projects. I went to a normal government school and they had some pretty good equipment. For my "higher school certificate" I did "3 unit art" and made copper sculptures that certainly utilised my metal working skills. The skill was beneficial across disciplines.

I admit that it was sexist in Australia, in the 1970's and girls did "home economics" and boys did "metal and woodwork". In reality most boys would have benefited more learning cooking and balancing a home budget.

Every boy in metalwork made a model Napoleonic cannon, as you had to use a lathe. place trunnions (pivots) on a curved surface and then made to carriage in woodwork.