Machining

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Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:12 am

I do manual machining on very old equipment. If you are just making a few simple parts, its still cost effectiv compared to CNC (computer controlled. The N standz for numerical, wich iz better than the old alfubetical computer control systemz).

Its fun to watch the new machinez making complicated stuff.

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:18 am

Herez a gitar.

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:25 am

Can you imajin how long it woud take for a guy cranking handlez to make this crown?

[ytube][/ytube]

Really, it just woudnt be possible. Sumwun coud carv it out with a hand held grinder, but it woudnt be presise and it woud take a coupl yirz.
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Re: Machining

Post by TJrandom » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:40 am

JO 753 wrote:Can you imajin how long it woud take for a guy cranking handlez to make this crown?

[ytube][/ytube]

Really, it just woudnt be possible. Sumwun coud carv it out with a hand held grinder, but it woudnt be presise and it woud take a coupl yirz.
Yes - but it would have character.... But but but... titanium? I`d rather have gold or even silver... or maybe brass.
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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:01 pm

JO 753 wrote:Herez a gitar.
It's very pretty and well machined, but I'm not sure what an all metal guitar would sound like. I imagine it would somehow screw up the magnets in the pick-ups and the owner would have to regularly degauss his guitar. :D

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:28 pm

http://www.edroman.com/featured/metalguitars.htm

There's some monster metal stuff here.

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:39 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:It's very pretty and well machined, but I'm not sure what an all metal guitar would sound like. I imagine it would somehow screw up the magnets in the pick-ups and the owner would have to regularly degauss his guitar. :D
Aluminum iznt magnetic.

The wun I made iz a better aloy and the neck iz 318 stainless steel, wich also iznt magnetic. http://www.zolkorp.com/RoGIToR.html
I hav it on Reverb for 100,000$ but I hav a sneeking suspicion that nobody will buy.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:50 pm

TJrandom wrote:Yes - but it would have character.... But but but... titanium? I`d rather have gold or even silver... or maybe brass.
Wut do you hav agenst titanium?

Brass iz junk.

I like silver, but for its teknical advantajez - its the best natural conductor uv electrisity and heat. I like the look, but it tarnishez.

Gold iz good but the problem with putting a bunch uv work into sumthing iz that its likely to get melted down by sum fool in the future. And its really soft. you coud mangle that crown with your bare handz if it wuz gold.

Titanium will not corrode or tarnish from ordinary envirmental stuff. Its relatively strong and lite. And its not so rare that sumwun will melt it for the comodity value.
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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:42 pm

Two skills I really admire but have no experience in: Mechanical Drawing and Machining. I saw my first home 3-D printer at Sams Club yesterday. Choice of colors. All the suggested uses really not useful. How many chess sets or star war figures does a person need?

With a life spent pushing paper, actually MAKING something has great appeal.

EDIT: I'll add welding. Did take a post college course in that. One day, I wanted to make a solder fix on my radiator. I couldn't do it, it kept melting away. A friend of mine was a retired Navy Welder. He fixed it in about 3 minutes almost like he was a 3-D printer himself. Gobsmacking magic to watch him work.

Skills........ reminds me of that very funny line in Napoleon Dynamite. Something to the effect he wanted to do something "But I don't have the skills"....as if they came as rain from the heavens.
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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:47 pm

Well, aside from chess sets etc ...


http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... rs-selfies

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:59 pm

Thanks Poodle. Nothing useful there for me except insoles? It would take a lot of insoles to break even.

I actually have a few plastic parts I could print, like on my food processor, that have broken. All metal except one plastic part and its the part that breaks. Who would have thought that?
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Re: Machining

Post by TJrandom » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:07 pm

JO 753 wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Yes - but it would have character.... But but but... titanium? I`d rather have gold or even silver... or maybe brass.
Wut do you hav agenst titanium?

Brass iz junk.

I like silver, but for its teknical advantajez - its the best natural conductor uv electrisity and heat. I like the look, but it tarnishez.

Gold iz good but the problem with putting a bunch uv work into sumthing iz that its likely to get melted down by sum fool in the future. And its really soft. you coud mangle that crown with your bare handz if it wuz gold.

Titanium will not corrode or tarnish from ordinary envirmental stuff. Its relatively strong and lite. And its not so rare that sumwun will melt it for the comodity value.
Yes yes - but wouldn`t titanium clash with my skull plate? And in times of need - being able to snip off a piece for melt value might be a life saver. And and and... as me head swells with all of that responsibility and gout producing consumption - being able to reshape it with just a bit of pounding might be a nice feature. Can`t be doing that with titanium, now can ya?

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:08 pm

Well, they're only examples, bobbo. But the possibilities are huge. Basically, if you can design it and you have the required kit, you can make it. It makes prototyping MUCH quicker and cheaper. And, as you say, that food processor could be good as new.

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:19 pm

Poodle: thats what I said. No use for prototypes. Who does?==>not useful enough to pay for itself.
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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Poodle: thats what I said. No use for prototypes. Who does?==>not useful enough to pay for itself.
Well, I can think of one guy who'd have a use. He started this thread.

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:11 pm

Ha, ha. POODLE: what are you doing?

I am not Jo. In fact, more than 51% of people are not Jo.
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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:34 pm

Sometimes, bobbo, you really confuse me. JO is the bloke who started this thread on Machining. You brought in the 3D printing topic, and I responded as it's a relevant subject - one in which JO may be very interested.

*shrug*

Yes - very confusing.

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:12 pm

Poodle==you may be right. To the degree....I apologize. ((I do give a small toss!))

The issue I brought up was the "usefullness" (cost benefit ratio?) of 3D printing to the average person I represented by myself and my own potential uses. Would a machinist like Jo be an average user? Wanting to make a model before he machined metal??

I don't think so. On tangent: MOST people don't "build" anything. Anyone who does build anything could benefit potentially from having a 3-D Printer.

.........but I agree with you. I do often recontextualize a subject to my own interests. Crap shoot after that.
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Re: Machining

Post by TJrandom » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:15 pm

I`d wager that porn might drive sales to non-professionals..... :?

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Poodle==you may be right. To the degree....I apologize. ((I do give a small toss!))

The issue I brought up was the "usefullness" (cost benefit ratio?) of 3D printing to the average person I represented by myself and my own potential uses. Would a machinist like Jo be an average user? Wanting to make a model before he machined metal??

I don't think so. On tangent: MOST people don't "build" anything. Anyone who does build anything could benefit potentially from having a 3-D Printer.

.........but I agree with you. I do often recontextualize a subject to my own interests. Crap shoot after that.
Right - now I see the confusion. 3D printing isn't restricted to plastics. The process is already well-embedded in industry and uses sintering of metal powders to produce real metal objects. It's not at the home-user level yet, but give it a few years.

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Re: Machining

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:36 pm

"Not restricted to plastics." //// From your link, I was most interested in the 3-D chocolate printer. Ha, ha...........Not pragmatic.
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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:44 pm

JO 753 wrote: Aluminum iznt magnetic. The wun I made iz a better aloy and the neck iz 318 stainless steel, wich also iznt magnetic. http://www.zolkorp.com/RoGIToR.html
I hav it on Reverb for 100,000$ but I hav a sneeking suspicion that nobody will buy.
OK. The first thing I have to say if that "there is no right or wrong sound for a guitar". Therefore I welcome metal guitars. If they do something new, then that's good enough.

The second thing, is that I have never played one, so I should keep my mouth shut anyway.
:D

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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:03 am

JO 753 wrote: Wut do you hav agenst titanium? Brass iz junk. I like silver, but for its teknical advantajez - its the best natural conductor uv electrisity and heat. I like the look, but it tarnishez.
I'm a conservative wood, glue and ageing varnish man, when it comes to guitars. I fantasise to myself that, like a Stradivarius violin, as my Stratocasters get older, "magic happens" and their sound ( sustain) improves.

I also belong to the "woo set" who think that the standard Fender "caster" shaped body and the standard Gibson SG shaped body are evolved shapes that do two different things.

However, after running rock bands for years I have two basic rules for musicians.
1) Never play a guitar that costs more than your car.
2) Never drive a car that costs more than your house.


I used to paint my cheap bass guitars "for show" and use them live. Here is my bass with high & low pressure weather zones. I was in a early 80's art band and for one series of shows I would wear a raincoat and announce weather changes between songs.
G20141208c.jpg
( And yes, I do play right handed bass & guitar, despite being left handed)
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:17 am

The sustain on the RoGIToR iz probably az good az possible, sins therez virtually zero attenuation in the structure. Its gotta be 100 timez stiffer than a wooden gitar.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:22 am

Poodle wrote:You brought in the 3D printing topic, and I responded as it's a relevant subject - one in which JO may be very interested.
You are correct. I'd luv to hav a 3D printer.
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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:55 am

JO 753 wrote:The sustain on the RoGIToR iz probably az good az possible, sins therez virtually zero attenuation in the structure. Its gotta be 100 timez stiffer than a wooden gitar.

That's the weird thing. A stratocaster has less sustain than a Gibson SG. It's a different sort of sustain that works for chords.


I was slightly tempted to buy a headless carbon fibre Steinberger bass, but they simply look repulsive and "feel too small". Despite the 30 year old photo of me using a pick for a bass, I am now a skilled "thumb slapper" and "string lifter". The mass of the bass makes a difference. I only have two basses, both Japanese made. A "through neck" Bass Maniac and an Ibanez Musician. Both have very different timbre.

For guitars, as there is so much audio processing, the original timbre doesn't matter as much, as the short or fast sustains. I write on my Stratocaster or a electronic piano.

(I have almost completed my "magna opus". It's an insane rock opera. I get knocked unconscious by books falling from my bookself and put in a artificial coma. I am told, while unconscious, by three naughty kittens, that my cat Titus is the saviour of mankind, has gone missing and only by telling the world, through song, about the contents of each book that fell on my head, can I bring Titus back. It may be insane, but at least I have some lyric content to work with, with endless puns. Expect weird things from me, at the end of next year. Even weirder as I want to make my own insane clips. (no Commercial value) ) :D

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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:17 am

It better be great.

Dont disappoint us.

No pressure. Relax. But dont screw up.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:22 am

Then therez big stuf.

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Re: Machining

Post by Flash » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:23 am

I've got some titanium screws in my back. Can I make a guitar out of it? :think:
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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:48 am

JO 753 wrote:Then therez big stuf.
....and small stuff, for example my scale bolt punch, for when the local hardware store doesn't have 0.5mm hexagonal bolts.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:50 am

Flash wrote:I've got some titanium screws in my back. Can I make a guitar out of it? :think:
No.

Sins you need your spine to be able to do anything, just starting to take it out woud end your spine gitar project befor you made any real progress. The titanium screwz woud not help.

Send your project ideaz to Mr. Lojik c/o The Project Show, PO Box 11393 New York NY, 10102. Submissionz that appear on the show will win an all expensez paid trip to Skid Row. You will be contacted if your submission iz selected. Accomidationz provided by the bum who iz currently in control uv the big outlet pipe next to the underpass. Pleaze send no unsolisited materialz, samplez, copyriteable orijinal ritten materialz.
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:19 pm

JO 753 wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Yes - but it would have character.... But but but... titanium? I`d rather have gold or even silver... or maybe brass.
Wut do you hav agenst titanium?

Brass iz junk.

I like silver, but for its teknical advantajez - its the best natural conductor uv electrisity and heat. I like the look, but it tarnishez.

Gold iz good but the problem with putting a bunch uv work into sumthing iz that its likely to get melted down by sum fool in the future. And its really soft. you coud mangle that crown with your bare handz if it wuz gold.

Titanium will not corrode or tarnish from ordinary envirmental stuff. Its relatively strong and lite. And its not so rare that sumwun will melt it for the comodity value.
how about magnesium?

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:24 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
JO 753 wrote: Wut do you hav agenst titanium? Brass iz junk. I like silver, but for its teknical advantajez - its the best natural conductor uv electrisity and heat. I like the look, but it tarnishez.
I'm a conservative wood, glue and ageing varnish man, when it comes to guitars. I fantasise to myself that, like a Stradivarius violin, as my Stratocasters get older, "magic happens" and their sound ( sustain) improves.

I also belong to the "woo set" who think that the standard Fender "caster" shaped body and the standard Gibson SG shaped body are evolved shapes that do two different things.

However, after running rock bands for years I have two basic rules for musicians.
1) Never play a guitar that costs more than your car.
2) Never drive a car that costs more than your house.


I used to paint my cheap bass guitars "for show" and use them live. Here is my bass with high & low pressure weather zones. I was in a early 80's art band and for one series of shows I would wear a raincoat and announce weather changes between songs.
G20141208c.jpg
( And yes, I do play right handed bass & guitar, despite being left handed)
where are your songs on youtube matt, let us hear some of your tunes :D

are/were you better than this?


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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:30 pm

Its interesting stuff. Liter than aluminum, easy to machine, similar rezistans to corrosion az aluminum, reazonably strong.

I think I red sumthing about a magnezium/titanium/lithium alloy resently.
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Re: Machining

Post by JO 753 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:35 pm

Savatage!

Ej uv Thornz iz THE greatest album uv the 90z.
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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:36 am

come on matt, a ballad would also be ok;



let's see what you had run for years; rock bands or puppet show :D

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Re: Machining

Post by freebill » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:08 pm

JO 753 wrote:Savatage!

Ej uv Thornz iz THE greatest album uv the 90z.
nope, their golden era had already ended just before that album;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savatage# ... .931993.29

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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:20 am

JO 753 wrote:The sustain on the RoGIToR iz probably az good az possible, sins therez virtually zero attenuation in the structure. Its gotta be 100 timez stiffer than a wooden gitar.
I just read this article, which does a lot of debunking concerning resonance and electric guitars.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns ... _tone.html

It make the following fundamental points. Firstly the pickups only react to the movement of the electric strings and nothing else. ( Fair enough). Therefore if the strings only "touch" the guitar at the bridge and top nut, then how in hell can sustain in the body of the guitar effect the vibration of the strings. If the strings are already vibrating at 440Mhz "A4" then any additional wave form, from the body of the guitar, added to the 440MHz, will cause deteriorating additional frequency modulations.

The article makes a lot of sense, however I "know" that a $99 copy Stratocaster sounds terrible compared to a $5,000 Japanese 80's made Stratocaster. This suggests to me, that perhaps I don't know the difference". I know the guys who look after all guitars in Sydney. I had my Stratocaster re-freted using their PLEK machine two year ago. I will ask them "what is going on?"

A PLEK machine, shaves the newly replaced guitar frets down to the exact level where strings vibrate. Each Fret is slightly different. The machine shaves the frets while the guitar is fully tuned at the guage of strings you normally use. At the end of the process you have no "buzzes" yet incredibly low action.

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Re: Machining

Post by Poodle » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:48 am

I'm sort of convinced. Any tonal quality from guitar construction materials can only be fed into the signal output via the pickups - exactly what the article says - but that's going to be swamped by the setting of the tone and volume controls of the guitar, swamped again by the amplifier characteristics and settings, and swamped for a third time by any signal processing devices in the line. If this wasn't true, a bodyless guitar would always sound like crap - but it doesn't.

The PLEK process makes it much more comfortable for a player in that actually making contact between a string and a fret is that much easier - this is not a bad thing, as any budding guitarist with excruciatingly sore fingertips will tell you.. But, assuming that you haven't bought a real cheapo guitar and the fretting is accurate, getting the sound you want is, I think, all about signal processing rather than guitar construction.

Remember the Les Paul Log.

EDIT: Unless you're playing acoustic, of course. Then, apart from your own skill, it's ALL down to the materials.

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Re: Machining

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:21 am

Poodle wrote:I think, all about signal processing rather than guitar construction.
I think you are probably right.

The most important first thing for me is the "action". I have high quality guitars. I "over learn" chords, by excessive practice, so I don't actually "think" where I'm placing my fingers. If I try play a cheap guitar my little fingers start flopping about on the higher action. If I start "concentrating" on a chord, that I know well, I start making more mistakes.

If I have one glass of alcohol. my performance skill rapidly deteriorates. If I smoke pot, I don't have a problem. It's weird.


I love my signal processors ( Old world "FX Pedals") and most of my life has been about making strange interesting sounds. Now that I'm semi retired and have some time to muck about, I'm going to spend some time trying to reproduce "normal guitar sounds" that I hear on professionally produced records. That way I can slowly get an understanding of how to mimic real producers and have a go myself. It is recreating nice electric bass sounds that I find most difficult.

The big thing I must learn is "separation and spacing". If a rock recording has eight drum sounds, two guitar sound, one bass and three synths, then that is a lot going on. A clever producer "thins" the parametric tone of each sound to its own band and thus avoids a "wall of noise". That is the next big thing I have to learn.

I run digital samples off my PC, but as I have old synths and outboard FX I still have to go through a 24/8/4 desk, to loop sound to FXs or bring in old Synths.
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