IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

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IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:22 am

Can anyone furnish a definite proof that this pulsating lump of a few hundred billion galaxies, which we call our universe, is actually in the stage of expansion and not in the stage of contraction?

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:40 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Can anyone furnish a definite proof that this pulsating lump of a few hundred billion galaxies, which we call our universe, is actually in the stage of expansion and not in the stage of contraction?


I don't think anyone can furnish definite proof yet....but there is something going on. I'm just keeping an open mind. It may be something weird about supernovas.

Here are some links.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/sne_cosmology.html

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/3137

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ivacc.html

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Can anyone furnish a definite proof that this pulsating lump of a few hundred billion galaxies, which we call our universe, is actually in the stage of expansion and not in the stage of contraction?


I don't think anyone can furnish definite proof yet....but there is something going on. I'm just keeping an open mind. It may be something weird about supernovas.

Here are some links.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/sne_cosmology.html

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/3137

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ivacc.html


These are the studies for which Saul Perlmutter et. al. have received the Nobel Prize this year. But this cannot answer my query.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:05 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: These are the studies for which Saul Perlmutter et. al. have received the Nobel Prize this year. But this cannot answer my query.


Well I'm just another skeptic forum member so I can't do more than I have.

Are you saying a scientist is saying "This is the way it is...case closed"? If so, that scientist should be taken outside, lined up against the wall and shot by firing squad. This is really "early days" and frankly I don't expect to see a clear picture in my lifetime.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:54 pm

The findings of Saul Perlmutter suggest that the expansion of the universe is accelerated. That is only if we accept that the universe is expanding. How can they say whether the acceleration is of expansion or contraction?

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Martin Brock » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:14 pm

Is the tribulation pre-millennial or post-millennial? Can three angels dance on the head of a pin or three thousand or three million?
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:17 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:The findings of Saul Perlmutter suggest that the expansion of the universe is accelerated. That is only if we accept that the universe is expanding. How can they say whether the acceleration is of expansion or contraction?

Because one is a positive acceleration and one is negative. They didn't just show that the universe was expanding, they showed that the rate of expansion is accelerating.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:12 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:The findings of Saul Perlmutter suggest that the expansion of the universe is accelerated. That is only if we accept that the universe is expanding. How can they say whether the acceleration is of expansion or contraction?

Because one is a positive acceleration and one is negative. They didn't just show that the universe was expanding, they showed that the rate of expansion is accelerating.


Thank you for the correction. Still the problem remains the same. It applies only when we accept that the universe is expanding. How can we be sure whether it is expanding or contracting?

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Dimebag » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:51 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:The findings of Saul Perlmutter suggest that the expansion of the universe is accelerated. That is only if we accept that the universe is expanding. How can they say whether the acceleration is of expansion or contraction?

Because one is a positive acceleration and one is negative. They didn't just show that the universe was expanding, they showed that the rate of expansion is accelerating.


Thank you for the correction. Still the problem remains the same. It applies only when we accept that the universe is expanding. How can we be sure whether it is expanding or contracting?

Redshift.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:28 am

Red Shift is a sign that the farther galaxies are moving at a higher speed. How can we know whether they are moving inwards or outwards?

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:40 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Red Shift is a sign that the farther galaxies are moving at a higher speed. How can we know whether they are moving inwards or outwards?

The redshift also means they are moving away from us. Increasing redshift means increasing speed of recession. The redshift occurs in all directions. The universe cannot be collapsing. Objects moving toward us are blueshifted. No really distant objects are blueshifted.

Even if you consider the possiblity that we are a long long way from the center of a collapsing universe, and that the redshift is due to distant galaxies being closer to the center and moving ever faster toward it, that obviously could not be true in all directions. Therefore, the redshift must be expansion rather than accelerating contraction.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:18 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Red Shift is a sign that the farther galaxies are moving at a higher speed. How can we know whether they are moving inwards or outwards?

The redshift also means they are moving away from us. Increasing redshift means increasing speed of recession. The redshift occurs in all directions. The universe cannot be collapsing. Objects moving toward us are blueshifted. No really distant objects are blueshifted.

Even if you consider the possiblity that we are a long long way from the center of a collapsing universe, and that the redshift is due to distant galaxies being closer to the center and moving ever faster toward it, that obviously could not be true in all directions. Therefore, the redshift must be expansion rather than accelerating contraction.



Yes, I meant what you have said in the second paragraph but I could not understand the underlined portion. The problem of direction would be the same for us whether we move towards the centre of the universe or away from it. Suppose we are in an expanding universe. How would the galaxies that are closer to the centre than us look like? We would be moving centrifugally away from them at a higher speed. Similarly, If we are in a collapsing universe, we would be moving away from the more peripheral galaxies at a higher speed, but this time, towards the centre. How can we differentiate between these two possibilities?

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:46 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:Yes, I meant what you have said in the second paragraph but I could not understand the underlined portion. The problem of direction would be the same for us whether we move towards the centre of the universe or away from it. Suppose we are in an expanding universe. How would the galaxies that are closer to the centre than us look like? We would be moving centrifugally away from them at a higher speed. Similarly, If we are in a collapsing universe, we would be moving away from the more peripheral galaxies at a higher speed, but this time, towards the centre. How can we differentiate between these two possibilities?

If we are not at the center, and not at the edge, there must be objects between us and the center, and between us and the edge. If objects nearer the center are redhifted because they have been accelerated by the collapsing universe (It can't be because of any of the forces, or they would be spiralling in toward the center the way gasses spiral in toward a black hole), then objects farther away than us would be redshifted less, as they too would be accelerating toward the center just as we would be, but, being farther out, their speed would be slower.

Since the redshift is uniform in all directions, it cannot be because of a collapsing universe.

An even more compelling argument can be made from the fact that the recessional speeds become so great that relativistic effects become significant. The redshift is not a linear relationship between speed and change in wavelength, there is also a relativistic component which is insignificant with nearby galaxies, but which becomes increasingly significant with distance (and therefore speed). The relativistic component is due to the expansion of the universe, and was predicted by Einstein's field equations. Measurements are consistent with theory.

In other words, the really distant objects are more redshifted than they would be from speed alone; and the difference is consistent with relativity.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:51 am

Red shift is not the only evidence.
Powerful evidence comes from the fact that items further away are much older. The light from an object 10 billion light years away took 10 billion years to get here, so what we see happened 10 billion years ago.

When a powerful telescope such as Hubble looks at objects of that order of distance, some things beome obvious, like the fact that galaxies are much closer together than they are today - that a much higher percentage of galaxies intersect other galaxies (in collision with), which we expect if they are much closer to each other.

If galaxies were all much closer 10 billion years ago than they are today, we know the universe is expanding.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:17 pm

Also, there is no "center" and no "edges." Imagine the 3D universe as the 2D surface of a balloon. As the balloon expands, all points on the surface of the balloon move away from each other. Similarly, as the universe expands, all points simultaneously move away from each other.
NOTE: The inward/outward axis may be interpreted as the time axis, with the center of the balloon being the big bang. As time increases, the radius of the balloon increases.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:57 am

Austin Harper wrote:Also, there is no "center" and no "edges." Imagine the 3D universe as the 2D surface of a balloon. As the balloon expands, all points on the surface of the balloon move away from each other. Similarly, as the universe expands, all points simultaneously move away from each other.
NOTE: The inward/outward axis may be interpreted as the time axis, with the center of the balloon being the big bang. As time increases, the radius of the balloon increases.


The answer of Lance was most satisfying, so was Oleg's. It's Austin who compels me to come once more. The balloon-like expansion is not consistent with Big Bang theory. It was not accepted generally by the astrophysicists either. We find that after every explosion, different particles fly off with different speeds. This difference in the speeds of the spreading galaxies was first conceived by Edwin Hubble from the Red Shift, which eventually led to the explosion theory, popularised as "The Big Bang" by the media. The balloon-like expansion means an equal speed of the spreading galaxies, which is not satisfied by observations. I request Austin to read Oleg's posts no. 11 and 13 for more clarification.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:56 pm

You misunderstand Hubble's law.
Wikipedia wrote:Hubble's law is the name for the astronomical observation in physical cosmology first made by American astronomer Edwin Hubble, that: (1) all objects observed in deep space (interstellar space) are found to have a doppler shift observable relative velocity to Earth, and to each other; and (2) that this doppler-shift-measured velocity, of various galaxies receding from the Earth, is proportional to their distance from the Earth and all other interstellar bodies.

Also see
Wikipedia wrote:Hubble's law has two possible explanations. Either we are at the center of an explosion of galaxies—which is untenable given the Copernican Principle—or the Universe is uniformly expanding everywhere.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:01 pm

Austin Harper wrote:You misunderstand Hubble's law.


First of all, I do not depend on Wikipedia for my knowledge. I have been thoroughly studying this science for more than two decades. What you said in comparison of a balloon is Hoyle-Narlikar theory that has been discarded long ago. I ask you again to go through the posts of Lance and Oleg. Since they have clearly discussed the matter, I don't want to use more space of this page to convince you.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Poodle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:55 pm

In a contracting universe, galaxy groups beyond the point of origin (beyond being, obviously, from the point of view of the Local Group) would be accelerating toward the origin. The Local Group would be accelerating toward the origin. The distance between the groups would be decreasing and we would observe an increasing blue shift - but we don't.

Either the universe is not contracting or the "other side" of the origin is too far away for us to observe it. If the second is true, we can't prove it so we're down to measuring the amount of matter in the universe to determine if there's enough to provide a gravitational brake on expansion. But we haven't managed to do that yet.

So, in answer to your question, I can state that the universe is, indeed, either expanding or collapsing.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:05 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:You misunderstand Hubble's law.


First of all, I do not depend on Wikipedia for my knowledge. I have been thoroughly studying this science for more than two decades. What you said in comparison of a balloon is Hoyle-Narlikar theory that has been discarded long ago. I ask you again to go through the posts of Lance and Oleg. Since they have clearly discussed the matter, I don't want to use more space of this page to convince you.


Are you implying that I do? I use it as a convenient online reference. The balloon thing is simply a visual analogy for expansion in all directions. Anyway, the balloon analogy is meant to describe the expansion as stated by Hubble, which is the exact opposite of Hoyle-Narlikar theory, which uses a quasi-steady state model (neither expanding nor contracting universe)!
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:41 am

Austin Harper wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:


First of all, I do not depend on Wikipedia for my knowledge. I have been thoroughly studying this science for more than two decades. What you said in comparison of a balloon is Hoyle-Narlikar theory that has been discarded long ago. I ask you again to go through the posts of Lance and Oleg. Since they have clearly discussed the matter, I don't want to use more space of this page to convince you.


Are you implying that I do?


If you don't like to, you don't.

My O P furnished a question : Can anyone furnish a definite proof that this pulsating lump of a few hundred billion galaxies, which we call our universe, is actually in the stage of expansion and not in the stage of contraction?


I got a satisfying reply in Lance Kennedy's post. That's why I thanked him. Actually, I also think the universe to be expanding. I only needed a supporting evidence to strengthen this belief, which I got from the posts of Oleg and Lance. Rest will be redundant. If you want to continue, you can, only for debate's sake.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:53 pm

I don't depend on Wikipedia for my knowledge, and I find it very condescending of you to imply that I do. Like I said, it is an easily accessible resource that is useful for providing quick links. I'm not going to dig through textbooks and type out quotes, and I wouldn't expect you to do so either. I do seriously doubt that you "have been thoroughly studying this science for more than two decades" if you don't even know where to look for proof that the universe is expanding and if you don't know which theories have expanding, contracting, or static models.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:24 pm

Wikipedia, overall, is not too bad.
The constant editing process means that any outright bullsh!t written up on this site does not last long. It gets detected and removed.

The real problem in Wikipedia is anything highly political or religious, where nutters are rewriting stuff all the time and writing total crap. If you avoid such sites, then the information is normally pretty damn reliable.

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:41 am

Austin Harper wrote: I do seriously doubt that you "have been thoroughly studying this science for more than two decades" if you don't even know where to look for proof that the universe is expanding and if you don't know which theories have expanding, contracting, or static models.


Dear friend, why you are always in a fighting mood? Can't I strengthen my understanding by interaction with the wise people using this site? Is there any harm not to take my own understanding sufficient?

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:23 am

:shakefist: Sorry, Nabarun. I get worked up sometimes.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:50 am

Austin Harper wrote::shakefist: Sorry, Nabarun. I get worked up sometimes.


8-) :D

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:27 am

Evapourating.

*phfft!*
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:52 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Evapourating.

*phfft!*


Believe me, there is a theory like that too!!

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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:53 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:Evapourating.

*phfft!*


Believe me, there is a theory like that too!!

You don't say.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Gord » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:13 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Wikipedia, overall, is not too bad.

Wikipedia sucks!

The constant editing process means that any outright bullsh!t written up on this site does not last long. It gets detected and removed.

The constant editing means fight fight fight until you get your own way. I know of one guy who went out and took over another website just to remove the source used in a Wikipedia article so that he could rewrite it the way he wanted it to be.
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Re: IS OUR UNIVERSE EXPANDING OR COLLAPSING?

Post by Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:07 am

Major Malfunction wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:Evapourating.

*phfft!*


Believe me, there is a theory like that too!!

You don't say.


Watch and read this. It has rather gained more importance after the observations of Saul Perlmutter et. al.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU2q5FiIxbo