For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

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For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Oakfarm » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:54 pm

I, who do not knows anything about quantum physics, happened to read this https://bigthink.com/surprising-science ... ve-reality
I want to know if this proves the consciousness course collapse hypothesis?
It seems to me that if it really proved that we should have heard more about it. But the article makes it seems like that. And honestly that scares me. Because it says that consciousness isn’t materialistic, right?

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Poodle » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:08 pm

Unless you are a subatomic human, I wouldn't let it worry you at all. Our large-scale reality is pretty stable.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:22 pm

It all depends on how you define a lot of stuff.
And when something weird is going on that usually means that the definitions we use are inadequate.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by gorgeous » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:39 pm

^^^^Objective reality may not exist, European researchers say
A new experiment shows that two observers can experience divergent realities (if they go subatomic).-----------------sounds like woo scientists to me...seth knew it first...---------seth-“Whatever you do, wherever you go, or whatever you think, no one can go where you go or think what you think, in the same way. In certain terms, the truth is not the same for each of you.”-----“It is theoretically possible to disperse your consciousness and become a part of any object in the room—or fly apart to disperse yourself out into space—without leaving your sense of identity. Many of you do it to gain refreshment while you are sleeping.”
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:49 pm

Oakfarm wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:54 pm
I, who do not knows anything about quantum physics, happened to read this https://bigthink.com/surprising-science ... ve-reality
I want to know if this proves the consciousness course collapse hypothesis?
It seems to me that if it really proved that we should have heard more about it. But the article makes it seems like that. And honestly that scares me. Because it says that consciousness isn’t materialistic, right?
I don't know much about quantum mechanics either, but I suspect that its many paradoxes are ultimately resolvable through epistemological means, rather than by explaining it as what Einstein termed "spooky action." This then constitutes the "faith" that religious types accuse scientists of having.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by gorgeous » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:57 pm

seth-------------The cell is material in your terms. The self is not. The entity then, or
greater self, is composed of souls. (Pause.) Because the body exists in
space and time, the organs have specific purposes. They help keep the
body alive and they must stay "in place." The entity has its existence in
multitudinous dimensions, its souls free to travel within boundaries that
would seem infinite to you. As the smallest cell within your body
participates to its degree in your daily experience, so does the soul to an
immeasurably greater extent share in the events of the entity.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Oakfarm » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:46 am

Poodle wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:08 pm
Unless you are a subatomic human, I wouldn't let it worry you at all. Our large-scale reality is pretty stable.
Sure I am not subatomic, however this threed is about conciousness.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:48 am

Conciousness is generated by interactions - there is no sub-atomic conciousness particle.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:30 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:48 am
Conciousness is generated by interactions - there is no sub-atomic conciousness particle.
I assume it would be "horrible" for the person selected.........but what would be the outcome of a baby put into an isolation tank? From near case histories.....like being unable to learn language and such.......I think it would make quite a basket case. Very interesting.....but horrible in contemplation.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:48 am

There are some cases of "Wolf children" who never quite develop a human level of Theory of mind.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by gorgeous » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:08 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:48 am
Conciousness is generated by interactions - there is no sub-atomic conciousness particle.
--------no proof
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm

The short answer is "no".

Wigner thought his experiment would give certain results only if "consciousness" (whatever that is) were an important factor. The experiment performed by the researchers used two "non-conscious" apparatuses named Alice and Bob which apparently shows that the results could be achieved without "consciousness" playing a role.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:57 pm

gorgeous wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:08 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:48 am
Conciousness is generated by interactions - there is no sub-atomic conciousness particle.
--------no proof
Many 9-year olds have tried to use that excuse many times.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Gord » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:36 pm

landrew wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:57 pm
gorgeous wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:08 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:48 am
Conciousness is generated by interactions - there is no sub-atomic conciousness particle.
--------no proof
Many 9-year olds have tried to use that excuse many times.
Nine-year-old with proof: https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/p/181 ... ar-old-rum
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Oakfarm » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:50 am

Gord wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm
The short answer is "no".

Wigner thought his experiment would give certain results only if "consciousness" (whatever that is) were an important factor. The experiment performed by the researchers used two "non-conscious" apparatuses named Alice and Bob which apparently shows that the results could be achieved without "consciousness" playing a role.
Thanks, good to get an answer.

I should have quoted the article in my entry or written a little bit more about it.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Oakfarm wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:50 am
Gord wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm
The short answer is "no".

Wigner thought his experiment would give certain results only if "consciousness" (whatever that is) were an important factor. The experiment performed by the researchers used two "non-conscious" apparatuses named Alice and Bob which apparently shows that the results could be achieved without "consciousness" playing a role.
Thanks, good to get an answer.

I should have quoted the article in my entry or written a little bit more about it.
That's not "the" answer, just "an" answer, but maybe the answer you were looking for.

If science worked that way, we'd still believe that bad odors caused disease and mice were created spontaneously in tubs of grain.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Gord » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:28 am

landrew wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm
Oakfarm wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:50 am
Gord wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm
The short answer is "no".

Wigner thought his experiment would give certain results only if "consciousness" (whatever that is) were an important factor. The experiment performed by the researchers used two "non-conscious" apparatuses named Alice and Bob which apparently shows that the results could be achieved without "consciousness" playing a role.
Thanks, good to get an answer.

I should have quoted the article in my entry or written a little bit more about it.
That's not "the" answer, just "an" answer, but maybe the answer you were looking for.
It is, as I said, the short answer. Two letters: N and O.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:46 pm

Gord wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:28 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm
Oakfarm wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:50 am
Gord wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm
The short answer is "no".

Wigner thought his experiment would give certain results only if "consciousness" (whatever that is) were an important factor. The experiment performed by the researchers used two "non-conscious" apparatuses named Alice and Bob which apparently shows that the results could be achieved without "consciousness" playing a role.
Thanks, good to get an answer.

I should have quoted the article in my entry or written a little bit more about it.
That's not "the" answer, just "an" answer, but maybe the answer you were looking for.
It is, as I said, the short answer. Two letters: N and O.
Some skeptics love short answers, but sometimes the evidence defies a simple verdict;
I prefer Michael Shermer's approach of fully examining the evidence before you dismiss it. He has elucidated this idea in several of his podcasts.
I'm no theoretical physicist, but I've looked into it a bit more than a friend of mine who termed it, "all BS." Taller foreheads than mine have concluded that there are paradoxes involving consciousness in the world of Quantum Mechanics that defy simple explanations or outright dismissal. For example, the double-slit experiment shows how light appears to exhibit the duality of being both a particle and a wave. Many more examples exist, which are far above my pay-grade and my ability to explain, but suffice to say, the evidence remains currently unexplainable and un-dismissable (a bane to the dismissive skeptic).

Think how backward we would be if all scientists were dismissive skeptics. Quantum Mechanics was rejected by many scientists at first, indeed including Einstein himself, who coined the dismissive term, "spooky action at a distance." Science however is not halted by dismissal, only impeded, and we owe much to theoretical physics for much of our current understanding, despite the "lack of evidence" that so many dismissive skeptics are wont to throw in its path.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Gord » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 am

landrew wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:46 pm
Gord wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:28 am
landrew wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm
Oakfarm wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:50 am
Gord wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm
The short answer is "no".

Wigner thought his experiment would give certain results only if "consciousness" (whatever that is) were an important factor. The experiment performed by the researchers used two "non-conscious" apparatuses named Alice and Bob which apparently shows that the results could be achieved without "consciousness" playing a role.
Thanks, good to get an answer.

I should have quoted the article in my entry or written a little bit more about it.
That's not "the" answer, just "an" answer, but maybe the answer you were looking for.
It is, as I said, the short answer. Two letters: N and O.
Some skeptics people love short answers....

...Think how backward we would be if all scientists were dismissive skeptics people....
Fixed it for ya there.
...Taller foreheads than mine have concluded that there are paradoxes involving consciousness in the world of Quantum Mechanics that defy simple explanations or outright dismissal. For example, the double-slit experiment shows how light appears to exhibit the duality of being both a particle and a wave. Many more examples exist, which are far above my pay-grade and my ability to explain, but suffice to say, the evidence remains currently unexplainable and un-dismissable (a bane to the dismissive skeptic)....
Is that a joke?
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:20 pm

Gord wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 am
Is that a joke?
No, but it's funny the way you proved my point about black-and-white thinking.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:31 pm

The paradoxes apparent in the quantum world are due to our brain's inability to accurately model that world. They are not inherent to that world, they are limitations in our brains.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:44 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:31 pm
The paradoxes apparent in the quantum world are due to our brain's inability to accurately model that world. They are not inherent to that world, they are limitations in our brains.
I agree that all paradoxes are ultimately resolvable that way, but until then, they remain unexplained paradoxes.
This is one skeptic who doesn't have difficulty accepting the term "unexplained."
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:19 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:44 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:31 pm
The paradoxes apparent in the quantum world are due to our brain's inability to accurately model that world. They are not inherent to that world, they are limitations in our brains.
I agree that all paradoxes are ultimately resolvable that way, but until then, they remain unexplained paradoxes.
This is one skeptic who doesn't have difficulty accepting the term "unexplained."
"Not understood" would be a better way to put it. QM has been explained mathematically, it's mostly that our brains can't actually comprehend it.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:33 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:19 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:44 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:31 pm
The paradoxes apparent in the quantum world are due to our brain's inability to accurately model that world. They are not inherent to that world, they are limitations in our brains.
I agree that all paradoxes are ultimately resolvable that way, but until then, they remain unexplained paradoxes.
This is one skeptic who doesn't have difficulty accepting the term "unexplained."
"Not understood" would be a better way to put it. QM has been explained mathematically, it's mostly that our brains can't actually comprehend it.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Gord » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:15 am

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:20 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 am
Is that a joke?
No, but it's funny the way you proved my point about black-and-white thinking.
I question your impartiality on the matter. You seem unable to learn from other poster here. Despite the fact that you've been repeatedly corrected, you still labour under false beliefs.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:30 pm

Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:15 am
landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:20 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 am
Is that a joke?
No, but it's funny the way you proved my point about black-and-white thinking.
I question your impartiality on the matter. You seem unable to learn from other poster here. Despite the fact that you've been repeatedly corrected, you still labour under false beliefs.
So help me learn. What is it from other poster that I should understand?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Lausten » Wed May 15, 2019 7:07 pm

Oakfarm wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:54 pm
I, who do not knows anything about quantum physics, happened to read this https://bigthink.com/surprising-science ... ve-reality
I want to know if this proves the consciousness course collapse hypothesis?
It seems to me that if it really proved that we should have heard more about it. But the article makes it seems like that. And honestly that scares me. Because it says that consciousness isn’t materialistic, right?
The article tells you that this experiment doesn't prove anything. It's going to be a long time before the average person has a grasp on quantum physics, if ever, meanwhile, we can grasp something much more simple, that is, experiments are happening all the time. They result in some weird data that could lead to more than one conclusion. To even begin to interpret the data, more experiments should be done.

This is the spot I'm talking about, and it goes on from there
That means this study has not, to this writer's knowledge, been peer-reviewed as of publication. It's possible that upon review, others in the field may see omissions or derive other conclusions from the data. Debate is a part of the scientific method, too.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by Gord » Thu May 16, 2019 8:33 am

landrew wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:30 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:15 am
landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:20 pm
Gord wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 am
Is that a joke?
No, but it's funny the way you proved my point about black-and-white thinking.
I question your impartiality on the matter. You seem unable to learn from other poster here. Despite the fact that you've been repeatedly corrected, you still labour under false beliefs.
So help me learn. What is it from other poster that I should understand?
I'll try to point it out more often.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by KarmaPeny » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:50 am

If anyone is interested, I have made a video (below) in which I give a very easy to follow description of quantum entanglement & spooky action at a distance. The effect supposedly occurs when the particles/photons are detected by a physical device; there is no dependence on 'consciousness':


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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:22 pm

KarmaPeny wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:50 am
If anyone is interested, I have made a video (below) in which I give a very easy to follow description of quantum entanglement & spooky action at a distance. The effect supposedly occurs when the particles/photons are detected by a physical device; there is no dependence on 'consciousness':

To claim to have "debunked" quantum entanglement takes more than a little hubris.
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by KarmaPeny » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:41 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:22 pm
To claim to have "debunked" quantum entanglement takes more than a little hubris.
To accuse me of hubris is a cheap shot. I've got the same results using two different approaches; integral mathematics and computer simulation. Why not dig into the detail and find a real issue to complain about?

Anyway, I did not post the video here for a critique of my debunking. I start the video with a lay-person-friendly explanation of entanglement and Bell test experiments. It is this aspect of the video that I think the readers of this thread might find informative. It shows why there is no dependence on 'consciousness'.

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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:06 pm

KarmaPeny wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:41 pm
Anyway, I did not post the video here for a critique of my debunking. <==================> It shows why there is no dependence on 'consciousness'.
Ummmm....."if" your video is debunked, it does NOT show anything really. In context, either you don't understand what "valid" means as opposed to "invalid"....or....you post here for everyone to accept uncritically? That too requires a bit of hubris. Hubris can exist or not on its own attributes.......nothing to do with the validity of posted material.

Well, let us know if your denial of criticism works. Quite a few here would like that acceptance as well. Just praise the Lord, give until it hurts, and pass the plate along............
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Re: For you how know quantum physics. Have they proved consciousness affects reality?

Post by landrew » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:59 pm

KarmaPeny wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:41 pm
landrew wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:22 pm
To claim to have "debunked" quantum entanglement takes more than a little hubris.
To accuse me of hubris is a cheap shot. I've got the same results using two different approaches; integral mathematics and computer simulation. Why not dig into the detail and find a real issue to complain about?

Anyway, I did not post the video here for a critique of my debunking. I start the video with a lay-person-friendly explanation of entanglement and Bell test experiments. It is this aspect of the video that I think the readers of this thread might find informative. It shows why there is no dependence on 'consciousness'.
This wouldn't be the best place to test the merits of your work. Have you considered publishing your work in a scientific journal?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.