boeing 737 max 8

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:24 pm
...

I know that if I were the CEO of Boeing, I wouldn't be sleeping.
Why not. He's resting on a soft cushion of "a record $101 billion in revenue last year"...
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:50 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:24 pm
...

I know that if I were the CEO of Boeing, I wouldn't be sleeping.
Why not. He's resting on a soft cushion of "a record $101 billion in revenue last year"...
That won't save his job if a third crash sinks the stock price into the toilet.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:51 pm

Trump just grounded the 737 max 8.

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:04 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:51 pm
Trump just grounded the 737 max 8.
Just 'cause he could.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:05 pm

The pilot of his private plane told him to.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:23 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:05 pm
The pilot of his private plane told him to.
Or maybe he's short-selling Boeing stock.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:03 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:23 pm
scrmbldggs wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:05 pm
The pilot of his private plane told him to.
Or maybe he's short-selling Boeing stock.
Actually, I never heard anything about him and stocks. Wouldn't mind seeing his (new?) portfolio...
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:09 pm

According to one expert, he says the fix has already been made, now that all the pilots know how to switch off the automatic anti-stall feature. Boeing sent out an advisory for this after the first Max 8 crash, saying that a faulty air-flow sensor could cause the system to malfunction, so the recommended action is to switch it off. Apparently the Ethiopian Airlines crew hadn't read the advisory. It's not Boeing's or anyone else's fault if that's the case. But this is speculation until the official story comes out.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:53 am

business insider - Lindsay Dodgson - 7/7/17

CEOs often have the traits of a psychopath .

i.e. they hire people to prove statistically that flying in big jets is safe .

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 am

pias: has anyone hired people to prove statistically that flying in big jets is unsafe?..........other than Lance???
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:08 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 am
pias: has anyone hired people to prove statistically that flying in big jets is unsafe?..........other than Lance???
everything is run on profit -
there is no profit in doing that ; or in being honest about anything .
so I would think no .
paying a statistician to prove flying is unsafe is almost unamerican .

someone requesting the truth -- it would be like that seen in invasion of the body snatchers
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:13 am

pias: well done. You make no sense at all.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:13 am
pias: well done. You make no sense at all.
thanks I think - I have been binge watching the Netflix series about border crossing / customs agents
that and filing taxes has me a bit more er blank than usual
I tend to get sarcastic .

I could try to rant an explanation , but guy told me - to get something done - you first have to want to do it.
same applies to understanding - first you have to want to understand .
kind of similar to what upto nogood said - he was frustrated about not being able to accomplish anything here .
would think a colleg pr would know the futility of trying to change anyone .

is kind of amazing - we all know it is a total waste of time and ink .
but we go ahead and try anyway .
wonder what shrinks call that ?

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:01 pm

pias; you do like to ping pong between nonsense and great insight. NoGoode's comment he wanted to "change people" struck me as odd too in two ways: why would anyone want to do that much less think they could...........and he didn't post that way. Not as "argumentative" so as to pull anyone his way, more just a posting of his own position?

Well......I think everything we write here is but a first draft. Give Upton a year and see what he thinks about it.

Same with your post that it takes a sociopath to publish stats on airplanes being safe to travel....................................
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:15 pm

Back to the Grounding of A/C. Morning Joe had a short review and sadly they were interchanging two very different concepts:

1. New computer/auto-pilot system was installed WITHOUT TELLING THE PILOTS.

2. The new computer/auto-pilot system was installed but not much training on it was given to the Pilots.

Ummmm..."as a pilot" if you tell me about an automatic function of the auto-pilot that will OVERRIDE my own physical inputs: I pay attention.

I suspect only #1 is true.....with one pilot in Kansas on sick leave was given No 2. IE: The manufacturers are lying and trying to cover their trail. alternatively: the Boing did "tell" the airlines, and the airlines did nothing.....all with the "collusion" of the FAA in not having a new certification designation for the new airplane.

Puts me in mind of a "system" in the H/C-141 that did not get much attention. It was automatic something and the only way to turn it off if you needed to was to go to an overhead panel two feet behind your head and pull the circuit breaker that was one of about 200. ie: The need to do so "should" never arise. In the new aircraft though.......it looks like there needed to be a nice big red button to push if you wanted "FULL MANUAL CONTROL" of the A/c. Morning Joe said part of the software change was the previous version of stall control COMPARED 5 DIFFERENT SENSORS and averaged out the information to make a descision. The new system is based on a SINGLE INSTRUMENT. So...easy to see a crash if that one instrument went bad. another rare cause might be a misloading of the aircraft. Not the passengers, and usually not the baggage, but topping up and using the different fuel tanks can be critical........in some a/c. Don't know if that applies or not.

Ha, ha.....................I always blame MANAGEMENT: their butts aren't in the front seats.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:31 pm

Maria Bartiromo just asked Senator Mike Brown directly; "Were the pilots told of this new software." //// She got a total waffle of an answer basically saying "trust the FAA." ===>Exactly what I don't do.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:53 pm

I think that "perceptions are reality" is the operative factor in this case. If the public doesn't feel safe without the groundings of these planes, then air travel is negatively impacted, therefore the groundings are justified for that reason alone.

Based on informed speculation, the groundings may not have been justified based on mechanical engineering factors alone. I seems to have been an unforeseen situation where the addition of the anti-stall feature was thought to be transparent and didn't require any pilot awareness or training. However, in the event of a malfunction of an airflow sensor on the fuselage of the plane, it appears to have caused the anti-stall system to over-ride the pilots' controls, pitching the nose down, as it would in a stall situation. This resulted in a battle between the pilots and the machine, probably resulting in increasingly desperate actions such as manually adjusting trim controls or shutting off other critical systems. None of these would have been successful as long as the anti-stall system had control of the pitch of the airplane. Eventually it crashed into the ground. The solution would have been simply to switch off the anti-stall system, had the pilots known about it.

Apparently it was thought that the anti-stall system would remain invisible to the pilots and wouldn't be activated except in the dire situation of a stall, where the solution is always to pitch forward the controls so that the plane goes into a dive. That's when the system is designed to take over the controls to prevent the airplane from stalling and dropping out of the sky. Apparently no one imagined the system would malfunction, and force the nose down in normal flight, or that the pilots wouldn't understand that their controls were being over-ridden by a malfunctioning anti-stall system, and they didn't know they could simply switch it off.

So it doesn't matter that every pilot now knows what to do in such a situation, simply turn off the anti-stall over-ride, and every ride in a Boeing 737 Max is perfectly safe. I expect that is the reason Canada and the US were reluctant to ground the planes until the last. The problem may already be fixed, but it will still take a period of grounding to restore the public's confidence in the aircraft.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:53 pm
I think that "perceptions are reality" is the operative factor in this case. If the public doesn't feel safe without the groundings of these planes, then air travel is negatively impacted, therefore the groundings are justified for that reason alone.
No. Why is this "safety issue" not purely a business decision of the Airlines involved? Seems like a "perfect case" for the market to regulate....politics protecting the public much less its perception of safety?................Pulease don't be such a stoooooooooooge.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm

If there was good information after the first crash, seems they should have made a lot of noise about how to prevent another one...
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:53 pm
I think that "perceptions are reality" is the operative factor in this case. If the public doesn't feel safe without the groundings of these planes, then air travel is negatively impacted, therefore the groundings are justified for that reason alone.
No. Why is this "safety issue" not purely a business decision of the Airlines involved? Seems like a "perfect case" for the market to regulate....politics protecting the public much less its perception of safety?................Pulease don't be such a stoooooooooooge.
Nyuk nyuk, because each airline doesn't want to be the only one to ground the plane, when their competitors may not. It takes a blanket decision by the government to level the playing field. Any stooge can see that.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:15 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm
If there was good information after the first crash, seems they should have made a lot of noise about how to prevent another one...
Much more: add to it the anonymous reports of auto-pilot stall failure on take-off FILED by two pilots and IGNORED by the FAA. Why filed anonymously?..........Need it be said???

ITS CRIMINAL.................but: bonuses handed out all around.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:17 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm
If there was good information after the first crash, seems they should have made a lot of noise about how to prevent another one...
Yes, it looks like they were exceedingly cautious about releasing the causes and the remedies for the crash, probably worried about how it might impact public confidence and the markets. I doubt they ever anticipated a second crash before their findings were to be released.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:28 pm

By "cautious" you evidently mean "wildly and fraudulently irresponsible."

All pilots already know that. Hence: an anonymous error reporting service, .............. that is ignored by the FAA.

..........................Who should.............go to jail???????
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:29 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:15 pm
scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm
If there was good information after the first crash, seems they should have made a lot of noise about how to prevent another one...
Much more: add to it the anonymous reports of auto-pilot stall failure on take-off FILED by two pilots and IGNORED by the FAA. Why filed anonymously?..........Need it be said???

ITS CRIMINAL.................but: bonuses handed out all around.
The "fear factor" is very real in many organizations. The airline industry is highly competitive and qualified pilots aren't hard to replace. There's no guarantee that the FAA would have any interest in reading anything from an anonymous source. How would they know it it were legitimate?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:28 pm
By "cautious" you evidently mean "wildly and fraudulently irresponsible."

All pilots already know that. Hence: an anonymous error reporting service, .............. that is ignored by the FAA.

..........................Who should.............go to jail???????
No, that's a uniquely Bobbo interpretation.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:43 pm

So why is there an anonymous pilot reporting service that is IGNORED by the FAA?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:43 pm
So why is there an anonymous pilot reporting service that is IGNORED by the FAA?
Maybe they didn't find it credible, or it got stalled in the bureaucracy, or maybe they already knew the cause. Why do you assume they ignored it? Maybe it was just a matter of taking the normal amount of time after a crash to release their findings. I don't know how long it normally takes, but I imagine it takes all the time that their directors decide it will take. There was no apparent urgency for a quick release of findings until the second crash happened. No one saw that coming. Hindsight is 20-20.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:04 pm

Weird they wouldn't find the "National Aeronautics and Space Administration, which serves as a neutral third party for reporting purposes" credible. :|



(I know, you probably meant the reports, not the agency. And why would anyone find pilots, perhaps even experienced ones, credible... :-P)
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:04 pm
Weird they wouldn't find the "National Aeronautics and Space Administration, which serves as a neutral third party for reporting purposes" credible. :|

(I know, you probably meant the reports, not the agency. And why would anyone find pilots, perhaps even experienced ones, credible... :-P)
It never went that far; the first one was probably considered somewhat a freak accident, highly unlikely to ever happen again. Air travel has become extremely safe, the US not having had an air crash in a decade. From that perspective, there seemed little to do, that couldn't wait until the findings were eventually released.

The second crash was highly unexpected, and changed everything. Suddenly, it's no longer a freak accident; it's a serious flaw, that seemed to require immediate action. From a purely pragmatic point of view, grounding the planes may not have been necessary, but as I said before, "perceptions are reality" and public confidence in their safety is a tangible concern, therefore the groundings are necessary.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:46 pm

I'm not quite sure if I'm following. The article I linked to earlier said
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash...

The [Dallas] News found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions...
They might have responded (actually, I think they did - with stuff held up by the shutdown), just not forcefully enough?
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:10 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:46 pm
I'm not quite sure if I'm following. The article I linked to earlier said
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash...

The [Dallas] News found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions...
They might have responded (actually, I think they did - with stuff held up by the shutdown), just not forcefully enough?
You know, this may be a phenomenon where people sometimes become resilient to a large volume of complaints, convincing themselves that it's all just excessive noise, instead of a sign of an actual problem. There was an incident a few years ago where a 911 responder was repeatedly scolding and threatening people who were calling in to report a motorcycle accident where a man lay dying, to "stop making nuisance calls." He was fired of course, but I have seen it myself at a local level. I called in to report an icy patch of road where vehicles were in danger of losing control, but the clerk fielding the call seemed to be very dismissive and laughing it off, no doubt having received numerous calls to that effect. Fortunately no one was hurt, but it seems the wrong attitude for dealing with complaints.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ent+report
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:13 pm

Cell phones. I blame cell phones...
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:07 am

landrew wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:34 pm
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 pm

FAA - all the time , money , work , beyond imagination ; to gather pieces and put them back together ?
those people have to be smarter than me beyond my comprehension .

couple ideas maybe only an idiot could come up with .
FAA to pilots --- hey a um you guys / pilots are sleeping too much ; and a your using auto pilot too much .
maybe hours of flying experience should NOT include time on auto pilot ; or even better , should be 2 numbers - actual and auto .

risk management = acceptable losses ?
As a private pilot, I have nothing but the utmost respect for airline pilots. They are the cream of the cream in the commercial pilot world, and the standards they are expected to maintain are beyond what most of us could handle. Autopilot doesn't make pilots lazy, it makes the flights safer and more efficient. Generally speaking, there are few things safer than flying on a modern airliner with a qualified pilot.
malta spitfire the diary of a fighter pilot
George f beurling dso dfc dfm and bar
this guy worked at an airport as a teen just so he could fly planes .
his skill , vision , feel for flying probably never equalled .
all of that probably useless 99.999999% of the time in todays big jets .

doubt any pilot today has his skill in a SHTF situation .
prefer this be looked at as a positive comment of his abilities as opposed to a negative.
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:27 am

need a link to the plc io logic for this plane .
certain that it violates #1 safety rule --- K I S Smarta--

who are the whiz kids who wrote the program ?
why don't they do an interview on tv ?

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:40 am

YouTube - 3/13/19 - American pilots complained about 737 max 8 last year - fox business network - 6:13

good example of the probable response to pilot COMPLAINTS .

chain of command - pilots are the machine operators - so are at the bottom of the command chain :-/

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am

process control basics - process variable or PV - instrumentation and control -

difference between good (smooth) control and BAD (fluctuating) control -

goal of process control is smooth operation - although this stuff is complicated :
it takes in info / inputs and sends output signals to the worm drives .
reality is this control stuff is stupider than I am - it has no idea that its flying a plane.

guessing there is/are process control engineer/s lying to themselve/s that this is not their fault.

even tho I know flying is dangerous , I use to fly often .
but thinking about this stuff - process control being used to fly planes :-(
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:03 am

get the nerds on tv

do interviews

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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:34 am

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:10 pm

You know, this may be a phenomenon where people sometimes become resilient to a large volume of complaints, convincing themselves that it's all just excessive noise, instead of a sign of an actual problem.
Ya but: BEFORE there was a large volume of complaints, there was a single complaint. the First one. then a Second Complaint that really confirmed the First Complaint. Then, there was a Third Complaint that showed the First Two were Valid............What is ignored before resiliency sets in?
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scrmbldggs
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:13 pm

The problem was they still got to complain...
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Re: boeing 737 max 8

Post by landrew » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:43 pm

I suppose it's a form of burnout, people get tired of hearing complaints, defense mechanisms go up, people become resilient and sometimes it goes way too far before someone notices. After all, the complaints seem to be being handled, right? What are they going to do, complain more?
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.