Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:54 am

If you don't do BOTH: you'll have a hard time of it. Exercise boosts your metabolism and initiates certain biological processes in the body. I know we hate doing it, doesn't mean its not "necessary" for even just "good" health. Certainly, can't get optimal without it.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:10 am

Bobbo

The term "horribly dangerous" is only valid if relative to something else. If you take nuclear power in isolation, and point out that 49 people were killed by the Chernobyl accident, than you can make that argument. But as soon as you compare it to other methods of generating power, the picture changes. 49 dead at Chernobyl compared to 170,000 dead at the hydroelectric disaster of Banqiao.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:37 pm

Exercising makes you hungry. So does fasting, but it's easier to get over it.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:40 pm

Some recent research shows that the human body adapts to exercise in terms of calories.

If you lead an indolent life and burn 2500 calories per day (the average for an adult male), and then start doing (say) 30 minutes exercises each day, then for a while you will burn more than 2,500 calories. But your body adapts and goes back to burning 2,500 calories per day, despite the exercises.

This frustrates the desire to lose weight.

It is still possible to use exercise to lose weight, but it requires so much exercise that the body cannot simply adapt. This is what I call extreme exercise, and it approximates a minimum of two hours a day of exercise to the point of heavy breathing. There are people who do this, and more, and can have a real problem keeping weight on.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:49 pm

This is the model of the flat earth that they present:
https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Freq ... ossible.3F

It holds together about as well as "creation science."
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:34 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:40 pm
Some recent research shows that the human body adapts to exercise in terms of calories.

If you lead an indolent life and burn 2500 calories per day (the average for an adult male), and then start doing (say) 30 minutes exercises each day, then for a while you will burn more than 2,500 calories. But your body adapts and goes back to burning 2,500 calories per day, despite the exercises.

This frustrates the desire to lose weight.

It is still possible to use exercise to lose weight, but it requires so much exercise that the body cannot simply adapt. This is what I call extreme exercise, and it approximates a minimum of two hours a day of exercise to the point of heavy breathing. There are people who do this, and more, and can have a real problem keeping weight on.
wut? LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For once Lance: dammit a LINK. Calories: a measure of work. You are saying you can do X amount of work or X + Y amount of work using the same amount of energy? Physics says no. The best argument I can IMAGINE for your position is that indeed other caloric expenditure activities come into play and get more efficient. What are those?
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:58 am

It was in my paper copy of New Scientist.

It can and does happen. Caloric expenditure varies enormously. For example, some people burn 3,000 calories a day doing nothing, while others burn half that, also doing nothing. It is individual variation. A single individual will also change his or her caloric expenditure during his or her life, for many reasons.

The human body is not an internal combustion piston engine, and it adapts and changes.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:09 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:58 am

The human body is not an internal combustion piston engine, and it adapts and changes.
Work is work. Being scientific and all, I bet that article explains what you don't notice.

calorie: ha, ha........ok.......its not about "work" as closely as I was thinking it was. So.................heat is heat: etc. Speaking of heat.....its almost always the end result of most activity/energy transformations as in the entropy of the Universe moving in that constant direction.

Without knowing anything, I'd guess then that the calorie/exercise equation may reach equilibrium over time but there is more heat going into the universe. .........or something like that because I don't believe in magic.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:44 am

Simplistic thinking, Bobbo, and a lack of understanding of biology as opposed to mechanics.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:56 am

Ok Lance. I'm open to that. Explain what I have wrong. How does the biology work?
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:29 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:40 pm
Some recent research shows that the human body adapts to exercise in terms of calories.

If you lead an indolent life and burn 2500 calories per day (the average for an adult male), and then start doing (say) 30 minutes exercises each day, then for a while you will burn more than 2,500 calories. But your body adapts and goes back to burning 2,500 calories per day, despite the exercises.
As assumed due to your track record (no exercise pun intended....but your thinking is flabby) of leaving out the relevant caveat/exceptions/conditions/context: "
Working out a lot doesn’t appear to burn more calories than doing a little.
Close but not what you said....as almost always. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... -calories/

I've posted 2-3 times on a close issue: when I diet, I IMMEDIATELY notice fewer bowl movements (the body gets all the nutrition possible from what food it does get) AND....I get colder especially at my extremities but even my core: body is restricting blood flow to save calories. Weight loss/gain and exercise: more than just calories in...etc. Yep.

Have to read the article to find out what it really says.........................................
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:35 pm

Well done, Bobbo. You found the article. I had not realised it was available,on line, so well done.

The key is biology. The human body (like all life forms) is very, very adaptive. When the situation changes, the body adapts. Since food has, through most of our evolutionary past, been in short supply, the body adapts to burn food as it is available. When there is more energy need, or less food, the body becomes more efficient at using those food calories. I do not know exactly how, and I am not sure that even the biologists studying this know exactly how. But that is not the point. The point is that adaptation makes it happen.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:52 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:35 pm
Well done, Bobbo. You found the article. I had not realised it was available,on line, so well done.

The key is biology. The human body (like all life forms) is very, very adaptive. When the situation changes, the body adapts. Since food has, through most of our evolutionary past, been in short supply, the body adapts to burn food as it is available. When there is more energy need, or less food, the body becomes more efficient at using those food calories. I do not know exactly how, and I am not sure that even the biologists studying this know exactly how. But that is not the point. The point is that adaptation makes it happen.
It would be hard to explain why an organism would be less efficient at times. There's no apparent reason for that, owing to the fact that nearly all natural populations are governed by the available food supply. Populations generally hover above starvation most of the time. Exceptions are where predation is the main population control.

It's more likely that something else is being sacrificed in order to make better use of available food resources. Possibly birth rate, longevity, organ development or internal reserves are being tapped. What looks like a simple increase in efficiency may actually be a trade-off for something else.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:07 pm

efficiency is an after the fact hooman construct.

the point here being that energy is still always conserved and if its not being transformed into work/heat/metabolism or whatever then it is going somewhere else. It doesn't just disappear due to adaptive metabolism.

Less efficient at times: habit patterns form re eating when you can. What variously happens when you over eat is Darwins response. If you don't know it, google why chickens lay eggs. Fascinating evolution and the human exploitation of it.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:13 pm

Energy is always conserved. But if it is not being used, it tends to be converted to fat. That is why people who go on a diet, and then revert to normal eating habits, end up fatter than ever.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:29 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:07 pm
efficiency is an after the fact hooman construct.

the point here being that energy is still always conserved and if its not being transformed into work/heat/metabolism or whatever then it is going somewhere else. It doesn't just disappear due to adaptive metabolism.

Less efficient at times: habit patterns form re eating when you can. What variously happens when you over eat is Darwins response. If you don't know it, google why chickens lay eggs. Fascinating evolution and the human exploitation of it.
Chickens are a good example, and cattle are another. The efficiency of cattle to convert feed to beef varies significantly from one breed to another. Cattle bred for centuries in regions where feed was plentiful have lost some of their feed-conversion efficiency. The Black Angus breed is known for it's good feed-conversion efficiency, and it originated in Scotland, known to be a place of scarcer resources than many other regions where feed was more plentiful.

But it's hard to imagine that evolution would select for a lower efficiency of food conversion unless it were a trade-off for something better. Perhaps the best example is when mammals began to develop homeothermic (warm-blooded) metabolisms which have a much higher food requirement than cold-blooded metabolisms.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:48 pm

I believe the psychology of spherical earth denial is a type of "Galileo complex." I may be coining the term, but it stems from the fallacy that the majority of people are ignorant, and the minority who are persecuted for their beliefs are some sort of hero.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:10 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:29 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:07 pm
efficiency is an after the fact hooman construct.

the point here being that energy is still always conserved and if its not being transformed into work/heat/metabolism or whatever then it is going somewhere else. It doesn't just disappear due to adaptive metabolism.

Less efficient at times: habit patterns form re eating when you can. What variously happens when you over eat is Darwins response. If you don't know it, google why chickens lay eggs. Fascinating evolution and the human exploitation of it.
Chickens are a good example, and cattle are another. The efficiency of cattle to convert feed to beef varies significantly from one breed to another. Cattle bred for centuries in regions where feed was plentiful have lost some of their feed-conversion efficiency. The Black Angus breed is known for it's good feed-conversion efficiency, and it originated in Scotland, known to be a place of scarcer resources than many other regions where feed was more plentiful.

But it's hard to imagine that evolution would select for a lower efficiency of food conversion unless it were a trade-off for something better. Perhaps the best example is when mammals began to develop homeothermic (warm-blooded) metabolisms which have a much higher food requirement than cold-blooded metabolisms.
Sauropods had a very low nutrition diet, which is the main reason they got so large - they needed an enormous gut to process it well enough, and the rest of the size came with that. Why? Nothing else was exploiting that food source. Evolution favors any niche where there is an opportunity.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:20 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:10 pm
Sauropods had a very low nutrition diet, which is the main reason they got so large - they needed an enormous gut to process it well enough, and the rest of the size came with that. Why? Nothing else was exploiting that food source. Evolution favors any niche where there is an opportunity.
I'm not sure I buy the "big gut" theory, but it follows that gigantism occurs under a plentiful food supply. We see the reverse (dwarfism) where food supplies are scarce, such as on small islands. I think the operative force driving selection of large size is predation. Predators prefer to tackle the smaller and weaker individuals, but they gradually follow their prey species in size increase over time.
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Gord » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:33 pm

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:21 pm

It is an arms race. Prey evolve to be bigger, like North Americas giant sloth. Predators evolve greater size to tackle big prey, like the dire wolf and sabre tooth cat. Here in NZ, we had the worlds tallest bird, the giant moa, and the worlds biggest eagle. Of course, when the ultimate predator arrived, both went extinct.

Also of course, size is not the only factor evolved in response to predators. Speed is another. Bison and elk in North America had a better adaptation, which also helped against the ultimate predator, when it arrived, which is speed. They could run away.

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Re: Flat Earth Theory: Denialism's new high-water mark

Post by landrew » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:47 pm

The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.