Is mind uploading possible?

How should we think about weird things?
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Upton_O_Goode
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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:01 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:06 am
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:25 am
ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:27 am
I would argue that an uploaded mind running in an emulating would still require sleep, since that is what the human mind requires to function. Of course, once understood, this process might be vastly accelerated.

But the real question is: why do we care if the emulated mind is human as long as it is demonstrably a mind?
Sleep is a biological function.
How would we know that?

Animals need sleep to recover and learn.
Computers need downtime, too, to flush Caches, update drivers, install new programs, self-check for problems.
Outside of a continuously changing physical body, in what sense am I the same person now that I was in 1943? Heraclitus had a point: You cannot step twice into the same river. The water that is there today is not the same as the water that was there yesterday. This impacts the idea of uploading a mind. If a Mind Transporter erases a physical brain in one place and implants all its memories and habits into another brain, is that the same mind after the transfer? Suppose all the information is stored in a large number of different, unconnected remote locations for an indefinite time before being reassembled. Was the person who gets transferred legally alive during the period of storage?

This is all too deep for me. I never could understand Transubstantiation. If I could have done, I might still be a Catholic.
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Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by landrew » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:31 pm

When I compare the human mind to a computer, I see very few similarities. I don't think the brain runs lists of instructions based on clock cycles, and it doesn't store memories in dedicated arrays. When I think of the human brain, I'm reminded of the way radios were built before they used printed circuit boards; a massive bundle of wires connecting component to component. By "components, I believe we have specialized regions of the brain that perform certain functions. I think the brain works largely by association of neural nets, which resemble analog data like photographs. Once we understand how they are "wired," I think we can some day find a way to digitize the connections of the brain in a way that can be stored and emulated.
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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:40 pm

No question current programs work differently than minds - but that is beside the point.
If there isn't some magic to human minds, a sufficiently powerful computer can emulate them.
But it might be impossible to scan a biological brain with sufficient accuracy to encode it digitally.

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:50 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:01 pm
... in what sense am I the same person now that I was in 1943?
Maybe just legally.... and socially - that is everybody still thinks that you are you. (I know, I know... you really didn't need an answer...)

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:30 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:31 pm
When I compare the human mind to a computer, I see very few similarities. I don't think the brain runs lists of instructions based on clock cycles, and it doesn't store memories in dedicated arrays. When I think of the human brain, I'm reminded of the way radios were built before they used printed circuit boards; a massive bundle of wires connecting component to component. By "components, I believe we have specialized regions of the brain that perform certain functions. I think the brain works largely by association of neural nets, which resemble analog data like photographs. Once we understand how they are "wired," I think we can some day find a way to digitize the connections of the brain in a way that can be stored and emulated.
Nice reasoning. We may be closing in on an understanding of how the human mind works. To me, the central mystery is that of focused concentration: how does one decide to think about a particular subject, ignoring input from the senses and other memories? For sure, no computer can do that. If the mind is somehow following programmed instructions, they must, as you imply, be instructions based on SETS of data rather than individual data items.

I remember seeing a computer-translator at the 1964 World's Fair in New York. The typist was entering Russian and the machine was outputting what was allegedly an English translation. Since I knew Russian, I could see exactly what was going wrong. Besides the expected mistakes in dealing with words like сведения, which means "information" if you stress the first syllable and "reductions" if you stress the second syllable, any time the typist made an error resulting in what was not even a Russian word, the machine simply output a transliteration into the Latin alphabet.

But on-line translators HAVE gotten better, by imitating the way human minds learn language: That is, give the computer huge amounts of text, and program a sense-checker to see if its output makes sense, then correct the translation program accordingly. I had occasion, while working as a volunteer at the Visiting Nurse Association a few years ago, to use an on-line translator for a Nepali patient. Of course, I had no way of knowing if the text I input was correctly translated, but I hit on the idea of taking the Nepali output and back-translating into English. To my surprise, the result was comprehensible, though not idiomatic English, and it conveyed the gist of the original instructions.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by TJrandom » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:30 pm
... , but I hit on the idea of taking the Nepali output and back-translating into English. To my surprise, the result was comprehensible, though not idiomatic English, and it conveyed the gist of the original instructions.
I use Google Translate on occasion, and sometimes do the same.

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by Gord » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:37 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:30 pm
... , but I hit on the idea of taking the Nepali output and back-translating into English. To my surprise, the result was comprehensible, though not idiomatic English, and it conveyed the gist of the original instructions.
I use Google Translate on occasion, and sometimes do the same.
... , prevent myself hit the in idea for the taking nepali output and back-translating onto english. To I the surprised, result were comprehensible, though don't idiomatic english, and it the conveyed gist the for original instructions.
Myself used google translate in occasion, and sometimes the will same.
https://lingojam.com/BadTranslator
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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:42 am

I often get good results if I check the various parts of a sentence individually against what a translation of the whole thing looks like.
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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:50 am

Gord wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:37 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:30 pm
... , but I hit on the idea of taking the Nepali output and back-translating into English. To my surprise, the result was comprehensible, though not idiomatic English, and it conveyed the gist of the original instructions.
I use Google Translate on occasion, and sometimes do the same.
... , prevent myself hit the in idea for the taking nepali output and back-translating onto english. To I the surprised, result were comprehensible, though don't idiomatic english, and it the conveyed gist the for original instructions.
Myself used google translate in occasion, and sometimes the will same.
https://lingojam.com/BadTranslator
:lol: :lol:

I possibly cannot imagine where such an idea you got it from at.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by mack_10 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:29 am

If I could digitize my mind
Then I could create multiple copies
Which one would be me?

The only point to doing this would be to make me immortal
Making a copy of me does not make me immortal

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:57 am

mack_10 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:29 am
If I could digitize my mind
Then I could create multiple copies
Which one would be me?
none

But then, you are no longer "you" one second from now.

mack_10 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:29 am
The only point to doing this would be to make me immortal
Making a copy of me does not make me immortal
no, but something very much like you will be.

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by mirror93 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:12 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:59 am
Hi there and welcome.

I don't think the question of "copy" is relevant: you could argue that who woke up this morning in your bed was just a copy of the person who went to sleep last night.
Only relevant is whether the Upload thinks of itself as a person, and it is treated as such.
Technologically, we currently can see no reason why this wouldn't, in theory, be possible.
But even being very optimistic, I doubt it could happen within the next 50 years.
No, you can't argue that, this is nonsense. Even if your memories are erased, you still the person who went to sleep last night. Time is real, and there is continuity. No matter what you think subjectively, you still that person objectively.
:paladin:

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:07 pm

mirror93 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:12 am
No, you can't argue that, this is nonsense. Even if your memories are erased, you still the person who went to sleep last night. Time is real, and there is continuity. No matter what you think subjectively, you still that person objectively.
there is no way to tell the difference, so why claim that there has to be one?

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by mirror93 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:22 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:07 pm
mirror93 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:12 am
No, you can't argue that, this is nonsense. Even if your memories are erased, you still the person who went to sleep last night. Time is real, and there is continuity. No matter what you think subjectively, you still that person objectively.
there is no way to tell the difference, so why claim that there has to be one?
And are you being serious?? Copy of yourself?? Freaking jesus! Even if you lose ur memories you still the same person, no matter what. There is no such thing as "copy of youself" , that would suggest something unknown is copying you, total BS.
:paladin:

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Re: Is mind uploading possible?

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:41 am

Are you the same person you were at the age of ten?
Is a person with serious head injury, brain tumor or Alzheimer's the same person as before?
Ask any acquaintances, and they will tell you No.

There is no way for you to know if you have lived a biological life up to this point, or have been booted up in a simulation a clock cycle ago, with the memories of a life.

Our bodies are like the Ship of Theseus, which constantly changes while appearing to more or less stay the same.
But there isn't an atom in our body that has remained fixed for more than a few years.