The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

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landrew
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:28 pm

Skeptic1001 wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:01 am
landrew wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:32 pm
Ed Dames was involved with the Stargate Project for several decades, and it claimed several remote-viewing victories, but its Achilles heel was the lack of repeatability. I recall listening to a debate between Michael Shermer and one of the former RV team members, Russel Targ, but I can't remember where. Some of the one-time hits are easy to dismiss, but not so easy to explain.
As a tolerant skeptic, I'm always open to further evidence that remote-viewing works, but it hasn't been forthcoming, especially from Ed Dames, who apparently has never made an accurate prediction, even by chance, according to Russel Targ. Apparently he has some success as an RV teacher, because he seems to be keeping busy in that venue.
That's right, the stargate project. I heard him on several occasions with the C2C:AM show years ago. Got an attitude, doom prophet, survivalist, obsessed with survivalism, teaching the gospel of MREs and bomb shelters.

Can you trust Russel Targ? Do you really think all of it is a scheme or is there anything of scientific value at all within their research?
I hesitate to discount someone's character based on which "side" of a skeptical issue they may reside. I may disagree with him on the subject of remote viewing, but I see no reason to distrust him. It seems a bit fallacious to distrust someone because they disagree with you. I'm not aware that he has any financial stake in remote viewing, so I'll grant him the benefit of the doubt.

The project started because it was believed the Russians were doing the same. I'd call the program an earnest effort at scientific research, even though the results were essentially fruitless.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Skeptic1001 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:26 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:53 am
Skeptic1001 wrote: Like you wrote, a large number of his predictions were wrong, but on the same token a few of his remote viewings were right on and the sort of things that he actually did hit right were near impossible to randomly guess.
Where are you getting this information, that he had any correct hits, from?
I specifically remember on C2C:AM the radio host congratulating and confirming with him some of his predictions coming true that he made on previous shows. They also discussed that many of his predictions were wrong. The wrong ones didn't take away from the impressiveness of his correct ones. That was many years ago so remembering specifics are beyond my memory limits. I searched Google and found this thread to jog my memory.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread43183/pg1
muaddib at ATS forum wrote: He actually said before it happened, avian diseases and bovine disseases. I have been listening to Art Bell, on and off since there are things he covers i don't listen to, since 1998 and many predictions of Ed Dames have come to pass. He said the jetstream will drop down long before it happened, he predicted a mother of all tornadoes will happen an F5. He said then there will be a shot across the bow which will be the biggest ever solar flare. In October last year he said the sun was about to go on a rampage and in November we had the shot across the bow which was an X45 or so flare.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:53 am
Skeptic1001 wrote: I am not aware of scientific papers that state that telepathy is either replicable or not,
There are no scientific papers saying telepathy is real or that any experiment had replicated experiments.

The people who make it appear that ESP is real are stage magicians. That's why other stage magicians like James Randi, Penn & Teller, Harry Houdini and Johnny Carson debunked these con artists.
I am not disputing that most self-claimed telepaths are a fraud but I think there's enough evidence that telepathy or some sort of prediction is right on the money.

gorgeous wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:05 pm
Key highlights from the document are:
------- Psychoenergetics has its place somewhere between psychology and the other social sciences. It has not been reduced to mathematics and there is no physical model, but psychoenergetics does have many characteristics that are common to all science.

The first of these characteristics is replication. If an area of endeavor is to be considered a science, experiments must be replicable. When the results obtained in one laboratory cannot be obtained under the same experimental conditions in other laboratories, the work will be neglected and will be considered to fall outside the parameters of science.
Most science has a baseline of constants in order to determine the math and all math is replicable. Since our brains are as different as our faces and personalities and possibly to a much greater extent, you can't measure that a 12lb brain can predict a target at 7pm at such and such location every week. There's too many variables and without knowing what characteristic of a persons physical brain and genetics is related to psychic ability it becomes that much more difficult to determine enough constants to make telepathy a replicable science. When we can know for sure through a simple DNA test whether a person has psychic capabilities or not then the area of telepathy can become a true science.
landrew wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:28 pm
It seems a bit fallacious to distrust someone because they disagree with you.
You don't know the same people that I know. You are right though, in a civil forum of exhange, but in a power struggle where getting nasty helps you win truth gets thrown out and you can't really trust people.

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:30 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Where are you getting this information, that he had any correct hits, from?
Skeptic1001 wrote:I specifically remember on C2C:AM the radio host congratulating and confirming with him some of his predictions coming true......... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread43183/pg1
Your evidence is another member of the Above Top Secret conspiracy forum and a radio show you "remember". That's not evidence of anything.

Matthew Ellard wrote:The people who make it appear that ESP is real are stage magicians. That's why other stage magicians like James Randi, Penn & Teller, Harry Houdini and Johnny Carson debunked these con artists.
Skeptic1001 wrote: I am not disputing that most self-claimed telepaths are a fraud but I think there's enough evidence that telepathy or some sort of prediction is right on the money.
Nope. If your best evidence is a radio show, you "remember", and a member of the Above Top Secret conspiracy forum, then you have no evidence. As I said it is easy for "stage magicians" to fool people who want to be fooled.

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by landrew » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:39 pm

It's not really so simple as that. They aren't all a bunch of fools, liars and charlatans, even though that would make our job as skeptics easier.
But the verdict is that their results aren't repeatable enough for science, and that's the bottom line.

Let them try; give them a fair hearing and then let them bring it up for science to judge. No need for us to throw excrement at them. Science will sort it all out, and we can be entertained by TV specials about the subject in the meantime.

Besides, if it really did work, Ed Dames would have had plenty of repeat business for making RV readings from satisfied customers. Purportedly, that end of the business hasn't done well but the RV classes are selling well.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:40 pm

Skeptic1001 wrote: Most science has a baseline of constants in order to determine the math and all math is replicable. Since our brains are as different as our faces and personalities and possibly to a much greater extent, you can't measure that a 12lb brain can predict a target at 7pm at such and such location every week..........
For the JREF Million Dollar Challenge, the person who claimed they had ESP or could predict the future, was allowed to design their own experiment's parameters. If the applicant couldn't state when they were able to make these predictions, then that simply meant that person had no reason to believe they had ESP.

You are really talking about "anecdotes". If someone tells you they predicted which horse won a race, but can't tell you how many thousands of times they previously predicted the wrong horse, it is a useless anecdote, It is simply statistics that states a random guess will occasionally be correct. That's why you need a proper experiment with proper controls.

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:44 pm

landrew post wrote: Let them try; give them a fair hearing and then let them bring it up for science to judge.
I agree. JREF tried to give them a million dollars and a fair scientific hearing...... and still after 30 years no one stepped up to try take the money. :D

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:41 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:44 pm
landrew post wrote: Let them try; give them a fair hearing and then let them bring it up for science to judge.
I agree. JREF tried to give them a million dollars and a fair scientific hearing...... and still after 30 years no one stepped up to try take the money. :D
I agree, but really, there's nothing to fear from letting them try, plus it can be entertaining.
A fallacy can never be proven, and a truth can never be disproved. We can relax and smile, and just let them go about their business. No need to be anything less than polite and respectful.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Where are you getting this information, that he had any correct hits, from?
Skeptic1001 wrote: I specifically remember on C2C:AM the radio host congratulating and confirming with him some of his predictions coming true..........
I walked straight into that as I am not from the USA. "C2C:AM" is ..................

"Coast to Coast AM Radio: The Latest Paranormal News"
"Coast to Coast AM is an American late-night radio talk show that deals with a variety of topics. Most frequently the topics relate to either the paranormal or conspiracy theories. "
https://www.coasttocoastam.com/

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Skeptic1001 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:53 am

Matthew Ellard :mrgreen: wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:30 pm
Matthew Ellard wrote: Where are you getting this information, that he had any correct hits, from?
Skeptic1001 wrote:I specifically remember on C2C:AM the radio host congratulating and confirming with him some of his predictions coming true......... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread43183/pg1
Your evidence is another member of the Above Top Secret conspiracy forum and a radio show you "remember". That's not evidence of anything.
That isn't the actual documentation of Ed Dames correctly predicting but I remembered what I heard on the radio and I quickly found a thread with another listener that probably heard some of the same shows. That's a start. This argument also works in the opposing direction. Can you present evidence that Ed Dames has never had a correct prediction? Now it's merely a matter of whom had to research the truth and really, I'm not in the mood to do a deep internet search about this so I am going to just wait until someone can prove one way or the other.
Matthew Ellard :mrgreen: wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:30 pm
Matthew Ellard :mrgreen: wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:30 pm
The people who make it appear that ESP is real are stage magicians. That's why other stage magicians like James Randi, Penn & Teller, Harry Houdini and Johnny Carson debunked these con artists.
Skeptic1001 wrote: I am not disputing that most self-claimed telepaths are a fraud but I think there's enough evidence that telepathy or some sort of prediction is right on the money.
Nope. If your best evidence is a radio show, you "remember", and a member of the Above Top Secret conspiracy forum, then you have no evidence. As I said it is easy for "stage magicians" to fool people who want to be fooled.
I don't believe in magic so I guess they're all wrong.
landrew wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:39 pm
It's not really so simple as that. They aren't all a bunch of fools, liars and charlatans, even though that would make our job as skeptics easier.
But the verdict is that their results aren't repeatable enough for science, and that's the bottom line.

Let them try; give them a fair hearing and then let them bring it up for science to judge. No need for us to throw excrement at them. Science will sort it all out, and we can be entertained by TV specials about the subject in the meantime.

Besides, if it really did work, Ed Dames would have had plenty of repeat business for making RV readings from satisfied customers. Purportedly, that end of the business hasn't done well but the RV classes are selling well.
Even if they are 100% incorrect all the time every time they know how to tell some entertaining stories and get the audience on the end of their seat.

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm

I've heard a few C2C programs discussing Ed Dames' predictions, and I can attest to some of what's been said, but that's a long way from providing solid evidence about his predictions record. I'm sure podcasts exist, but they are likely copyrighted, and they don't prove anything, as they are mostly just opinions. Besides that, most of the language around such predictions are full of weasel words and impossible to pin down as hard evidence. I think we skeptics are wasting out time asking for something they can never provide. I choose to be entertained by it instead. I'll leave it to others to make fraud accusations if they apply.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Lausten » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:22 pm

It's always a hoot to read a quantum physics posts. It's surprising how many start out with three paragraphs about how they aren't going to be like all the other ones. It's like finding the toy in the Cracker Jack box, you know it's there, you know it's going to be just like all the others, but the joy in finding it is still just as fun. And there it was, the observer effect. Good to know our young scientist did his research and took those words and decided that the moon only exists because we are looking at it. I admit there have been times when I've shut down my computer and gone home and hoped that the next day I would turn it on and my code would run differently. Sometimes, it's even worked. But I didn't contact Deepak Chopra with my data.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:06 pm

Of all the principles in science, the quantum physics observer effect is probably the most misused. There is nothing psychic or mystical about it. There is no evidence that a human observer is needed. There is only a general principle that quantum phenomena are easily disturbed, and the act of measuring a quantum event may change it. So the act of observing may change the results in an experiment. Physicists are still learning about this effect and do not fully understand it. Yet is is reinterpreted as being something magical by so many idiots.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Pyrrho » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:10 pm

The best response to appeals to quantum mechanics is to ask the person to show their math.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by landrew » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:30 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:10 pm
The best response to appeals to quantum mechanics is to ask the person to show their math.
Not that I'd understand it.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Skeptic1001 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:29 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm
I've heard a few C2C programs discussing Ed Dames' predictions, and I can attest to some of what's been said, but that's a long way from providing solid evidence about his predictions record. I'm sure podcasts exist, but they are likely copyrighted, and they don't prove anything, as they are mostly just opinions. Besides that, most of the language around such predictions are full of weasel words and impossible to pin down as hard evidence. I think we skeptics are wasting out time asking for something they can never provide. I choose to be entertained by it instead. I'll leave it to others to make fraud accusations if they apply.
One thing I would point out is that if he made a prediction on air and what he predicted had happened then all you would need is a verification of the day of the show in order to prove that he correctly predicted something.
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:06 pm
Of all the principles in science, the quantum physics observer effect is probably the most misused. There is nothing psychic or mystical about it. There is no evidence that a human observer is needed. There is only a general principle that quantum phenomena are easily disturbed, and the act of measuring a quantum event may change it. So the act of observing may change the results in an experiment. Physicists are still learning about this effect and do not fully understand it. Yet is is reinterpreted as being something magical by so many idiots.
I agree and I also think that news reporters should look deeper into quantum science so that they don't confuse or misinform their readers.
Pyrrho wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:10 pm
The best response to appeals to quantum mechanics is to ask the person to show their math.
The math of quantum operatives is so advanced and difficult that the number of people that can actually understand it and use it is probably less than fifty. I could be wrong but it couldn't be much more than that.

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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Gord » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:55 am

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:50 am

landrew wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:30 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:10 pm
The best response to appeals to quantum mechanics is to ask the person to show their math.
Not that I'd understand it.
Well...the idea is to challenge the assertion of quantum mechanics by asking for the calculations to support the hypothesis that quantum mechanics results in a given phenomenon. Otherwise it is just another logical fallacy. Pretty sure it's the "appeal to ignorance," in which the citation of quantum mechanics is used to give weight to a premise without supporting evidence, i.e., the math to support the assertion. One might as well cite dark matter as a possible cause. Same fallacy.
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:50 am

This is one of my favourite scams by the Annapolis Remote Viewing Group. They put out two books just before the US elections on separate websites.
Remote viewing Hillary Clinton.jpg
Remote viewing Donald Trump .jpg
When Trump won they deleted the "Hillary Clinton as president book" and website. However the best bit is that the Hillary Clinton book is full of stories of what remote viewers saw Hillary Clinton doing as president. Obviously as Hillary Clinton never became president every one of those remote viewings were completely made up. :lol:
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Re: The Connection of Quantum Mechanics and Privacy

Post by Lausten » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:47 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:50 am
landrew wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:30 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:10 pm
The best response to appeals to quantum mechanics is to ask the person to show their math.
Not that I'd understand it.
Well...the idea is to challenge the assertion of quantum mechanics by asking for the calculations to support the hypothesis that quantum mechanics results in a given phenomenon. Otherwise it is just another logical fallacy. Pretty sure it's the "appeal to ignorance," in which the citation of quantum mechanics is used to give weight to a premise without supporting evidence, i.e., the math to support the assertion. One might as well cite dark matter as a possible cause. Same fallacy.
The point that someone like Spectic101 misses is that it doesn't matter that I don't understand, or that even all but two other people understand it. Peer review of formulas is something that can be done without fully understanding it. You "check the math" and say it is consistent with all known rules without saying it leads to a conclusion. The observer effect is much easier to check though, just ask any of those 50 people who understand quantum physics if it means what was said in the OP, and they'll say "No". You're now stuck saying either, quantum physics is really hard to understand, but you do, or it can be understood, and the purported experts are wrong about it.
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