Eggs and logic.

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Eggs and logic.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 pm

Remember when the nutritional advice was to eat eggs only in small quantities because of the cholesterol they carried ? I worked out for myself that this was crap advice, based on crap logic, and I have eaten two eggs for breakfast most mornings all my adult life. At 69 years of age, my health is way above average. Without medication I have excellent blood pressure and low cholesterol. More recently the health professionals have woken up and realised that eggs are good. A recent paper in the peer reviewed journal "Heart " reports a Chinese study involving 500,000 people, which shows that at least one egg a day actually and substantially REDUCES the risk of heart disease and stroke.

How could they get it so wrong ?

Answer. They relied on logic and reasoning instead of empirical data. They knew that cholesterol lining the arteries was bad. They knew that eggs contained cholesterol. So they used crappy logic to assume that eating that cholesterol would put cholesterol on the arteries.

But good science is not based on logic. The ancient Greek idea that you can obtain the truth through logic is now overturned. Real world data from experiment and novel observation is how to get to the truth. Forget the logic. Science is based on empiricism.

Not that logic is useless. Sometimes it can lead to good revelations. Einstein's special relativity was based on mathematical logic. But it was not accepted by scientists as correct until AFTER empirical studies confirmed its conclusions.

There is another nutritional conclusion I am very skeptical about. That is the reports that potatoes are bad for you. This idea appears to be based on a laboratory study that shows potatoes have a high glycemic index, followed by LOGIC indicating that this must mean they are bad. I am aware of several empirical studies where groups of people experimentally ate potatoes while control groups did not, and the potato eaters ended up healthier. Yet the official story is still that potatoes are bad for you.

Maybe as skeptics, we should be alert for conclusions drawn from logic and point out the need for empirical testing instead.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue May 22, 2018 10:45 pm

Pour some whole milk on it.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 22, 2018 10:49 pm

Argument from anecdote will get you killed.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 22, 2018 11:54 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Pour some whole milk on it.
That is excellent, Mr Scrambled. Another good example of empiricism beating logic.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by JO 753 » Wed May 23, 2018 12:42 am

The mistake wuz thinking a simple extrapolation will work in a very complex system. They jeneralized all colesterol az bad.

Lojik works wen you know enuf, its not that lojik iz bad.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed May 23, 2018 1:08 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Argument from anecdote will get you killed.
However, argument from antidote can be a lifesaver. :oldman:
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 23, 2018 1:31 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Argument from anecdote will get you killed.
However, argument from antidote can be a lifesaver. :oldman:
Only if you're using a bezoar.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 23, 2018 1:58 am

JO 753 wrote:
Lojik works wen you know enuf, its not that lojik iz bad.
But that is the reason logic is so often bad, Jo.
If you are dealing with a simple system, mathematical logic can work. When you are dealing with the human body, it cannot. When you are dealing with ecosystems, or global climate, or any equivalently complex system, logic fails. Only empiricism can deal with that.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 3:22 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I worked out for myself that this was crap advice,
........ and what was your process?
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 23, 2018 3:53 am

Bobbo

It was based on realising that the 'logic' required an unsupportable assumption. Which was that cholesterol in an egg equals cholesterol inside arteries. I have a degree in biology and I appreciate the complexity of metabolic processes, which includes digestion, absorption and reformation of molecules coming from digested food inside the human body. Cholesterol in the human gut gets broken down, by the digestive process. What it becomes inside the human body will depend on a range of different variables, and simplistic illogic made no sense to me.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 3:58 am

I can see keeping an open mind on the issue "but" at most that gets you to Ignorance. Until you know what in fact the relationship is between dietary and metabolic cholesterol and heart disease is....you don't know what it isn't (within limits). I don't think anyone has done any long term "testing" but rather an emphasis on correlation from cross population studies?........If so........no logic to that.

Eggs have gone from good to bad about every 5 years for as long as I can remember. I eat them because they taste good and are versatile.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 23, 2018 6:11 am

Heuristics are a great guideline until you can get enough data to check if your guess was right.
What should doctors have done, given the knowledge they had at the time?
There is nothing wrong with the best advice at the time as long as you keep on checking and researching.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by SEG » Wed May 23, 2018 6:34 am

JO 753 wrote:The mistake wuz thinking a simple extrapolation will work in a very complex system. They jeneralized all colesterol az bad.

Lojik works wen you know enuf, its not that lojik iz bad.
Why are you writing like that?
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Poodle » Wed May 23, 2018 6:57 am

SEG, you need to do some research. Just google Nooalf. It will explain everything.

Well - not quite everything. I don't think it possible to explain JO.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 23, 2018 7:09 am

Poodle wrote:SEG, you need to do some research. Just google Nooalf. It will explain everything.

Well - not quite everything. I don't think it possible to explain JO.
Or paisley flatulence. :roll:
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by TJrandom » Wed May 23, 2018 8:02 am

SEG wrote:
JO 753 wrote:The mistake wuz thinking a simple extrapolation will work in a very complex system. They jeneralized all colesterol az bad.

Lojik works wen you know enuf, its not that lojik iz bad.
Why are you writing like that?
He ate too many eggs... :roll:

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by JO 753 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:But that is the reason logic is so often bad, Jo.
Sumbudyz lojik, you mean.

Dum peepl tend to jump to conclusionz based on insufficient info. Sum peepl hav the mental fortitude to wate till they are confident that they hav enuf info and a good theory befor they start offering conclusionz.
If you are dealing with a simple system, mathematical logic can work. When you are dealing with the human body, it cannot. When you are dealing with ecosystems, or global climate, or any equivalently complex system, logic fails. Only empiricism can deal with that.
Dependz how smart you are. Maybe the level uv intellijens required iz beyond human ability. There iz sum level uv information prosessing power that will make it possible to predict the effects uv any substans in a human body, the ecosystem and the climate.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gord » Wed May 23, 2018 9:03 am

Poodle wrote:SEG, you need to do some research. Just google Nooalf. It will explain everything.
Don't do it, it's a trap!

Image
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by JO 753 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am

:lol:
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 23, 2018 9:14 am

Gord wrote:
Poodle wrote:SEG, you need to do some research. Just google Nooalf. It will explain everything.
Don't do it, it's a trap!

Image
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed May 23, 2018 9:23 am

JO 753 wrote: Maybe the level uv intellijens required iz beyond human ability. There iz sum level uv information prosessing power that will make it possible to predict the effects uv any substans in a human body, the ecosystem and the climate.
Now you are entering the realm of fantasy. Not the place for a skeptic.
The human brain cannot evaluate that level of complexity, even if it had all the data, which it does not.

Practically speaking, to get to the truth, we need empirical data. Not crappy logic.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by SEG » Wed May 23, 2018 9:39 am

Poodle wrote:SEG, you need to do some research. Just google Nooalf. It will explain everything.

Well - not quite everything. I don't think it possible to explain JO.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by JO 753 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 am

SEG wrote:Mi ankoraŭ laboras pri ĉi tiu!
prenu ripozon dum kelkaj tagoj kaj lernu nqalf
Lance Kennedy wrote:Now you are entering the realm of fantasy.
Wake up and smell the Google. AI iz here at sum level. Wether they are 'aware' or not, machinez hav been able to out think us by an embarrassing marjin for many yirz.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gord » Wed May 23, 2018 10:59 am

Iway on'tday etgay itway.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by SEG » Wed May 23, 2018 2:28 pm

Gord wrote:Iway on'tday etgay itway.
Pig Latin?
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by SEG » Wed May 23, 2018 2:32 pm

JO 753 wrote:
prenu ripozon dum kelkaj tagoj kaj lernu nqalf
I'm sure it's fun, but I am enjoying slamming my fingers in car doors atm.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 23, 2018 2:43 pm

SEG wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
prenu ripozon dum kelkaj tagoj kaj lernu nqalf
I'm sure it's fun, but I am enjoying slamming my fingers in car doors atm.
Nooalf is favored by linguist posers. The artificiality is obvious when we consider that it is required that a new awkward and imbecilic spelling of a word be created each time it's used.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed May 23, 2018 3:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...I don't think anyone has done any long term "testing"...
How about several million years? Seems the ape that made it to that point had no problem making it to that point on a diet of unadulterated things that were readily available. (Well, for the most part.) Seems things went downhill fast with major life and processed food changes.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 3:14 pm

Define made it.
Define no problem.
Recognize lots of natural foods are adulterated by lots of other natural things.
We will never know the counterfactual.
Define downhill accounting for the rising life expectancy from a natural mid 20's to an unnatural 83.

But, in the main, longitudinal population studies is not testing.......... Testing: is defined, and we don't do it.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed May 23, 2018 3:15 pm

> "Define made it." - You exist, don'tcha?
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 3:35 pm

Mere existence is no goal or even accomplishment. What exactly has been achieved?? What could it have been with different inputs??? Contra: you have to merely exist as the premise for anything to follow.

But "made it" was contextualized as being successful? and we don't know what else we could have been?......Contra: all the other Homo groups that did not make it, presumably on the same or close enough diet?? Other factors involved.

Ha, ha....I think from time to time about an almost did it counterfactual: imagine what HS would do with some other near sapien who really was "sub-normal." How much cotton would we grow?
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Cadmusteeth » Wed May 23, 2018 3:55 pm

JO 753 wrote:Dum peepl tend to jump to conclusionz based on insufficient info. Sum peepl hav the mental fortitude to wate till they are confident that they hav enuf info and a good theory befor they start offering conclusionz.
Even smart people can jump to conclusions and avoiding fallacious reasoning takes practice and discipline. There's a fine line between being smart and being arrogant.
Dependz how smart you are. Maybe the level uv intellijens required iz beyond human ability. There iz sum level uv information prosessing power that will make it possible to predict the effects uv any substans in a human body, the ecosystem and the climate.
Intellegence is about the rate you learn and apply knowlege. It doesn't always take a genius to make a leap in knowlege, but it certainly helps.

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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 4:00 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
JO 753 wrote:Dum peepl tend to jump to conclusionz based on insufficient info. Sum peepl hav the mental fortitude to wate till they are confident that they hav enuf info and a good theory befor they start offering conclusionz.
Even smart people can jump to conclusions and avoiding fallacious reasoning takes practice and discipline. There's a fine line between being smart and being arrogant.
Recognize you are only repeating what Jo said. Key words: "tend to"


Cadmusteeth wrote:
Dependz how smart you are. Maybe the level uv intellijens required iz beyond human ability. There iz sum level uv information prosessing power that will make it possible to predict the effects uv any substans in a human body, the ecosystem and the climate.
Intellegence is about the rate you learn and apply knowlege. It doesn't always take a genius to make a leap in knowlege, but it certainly helps.
again: key word: "leap." In context: ordinary intelligence can learn/recognize ordinary things. Walking not leaping. To leap, to see what most people cannot, is what genius is all about.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed May 23, 2018 4:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Mere existence is no goal or even accomplishment. What exactly has been achieved??...
Dunno, ask evolution?
But "made it" was contextualized as being successful? and we don't know what else we could have been?......Contra: all the other Homo groups that did not make it, presumably on the same or close enough diet?? Other factors involved...
Pretty much my point. If such earthly foodstuffs were inherently detrimental to the human organism, said organism wouldn't have survived and thrived as it did. Claiming (simple) eggs, milk, meats, grains, fruits or vegs are bad amounts to saying water is bad. There have to be other factors.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 4:48 pm

I can't tell if we are basically agreeing or disagreeing. Just because we "made it" doesn't mean (to me?==>my existential orientation??) such earthly (early??) foodstuffs weren't inherently detrimental. Some were poisonous...we learned to avoid them. But what ones gave early heart attacks??==>we still don't know. What can be said is that early food choices did not kill us off....but the record is filled with dietary impacts on early groups? Rickets, blindness, jaundice etc?
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed May 23, 2018 4:59 pm

Yes, we stopped consuming toadstools and continued eating eggs instead. :-P

I would assume illness always existed to some extend and isn't it often a lack of certain nutrients that causes problems like rickets? As now the overconsumption of refined sugars and the like (combined with other lifestyle changes) replaced the sword that prevented natural early cardiac arrests.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 23, 2018 5:15 pm

Toadstools, like falling off a cliff: results show up quickly.

..............but who knows, other than lance's rejection of crap logic, eggs aren't killing us today 50 years later?

Pros and Cons to all we do.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 23, 2018 5:35 pm

I don't have a cholesterol problem despite decades of egg consumption. I'm a whole person, not an egg-damage alarm system.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by JO 753 » Wed May 23, 2018 5:42 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:Intellegence is about the rate you learn and apply knowlege. It doesn't always take a genius to make a leap in knowlege, but it certainly helps.
Partly. Its also how many bits uv info you can juggle at the same time to produse a rezult. Relativly dum peepl get to 2 and thats it - conclusion reached, all further related facts ignored.
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Re: Eggs and logic.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed May 23, 2018 5:51 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Mere existence is no goal or even accomplishment. What exactly has been achieved??...
Dunno, ask evolution?
But "made it" was contextualized as being successful? and we don't know what else we could have been?......Contra: all the other Homo groups that did not make it, presumably on the same or close enough diet?? Other factors involved...
Pretty much my point. If such earthly foodstuffs were inherently detrimental to the human organism, said organism wouldn't have survived and thrived as it did. Claiming (simple) eggs, milk, meats, grains, fruits or vegs are bad amounts to saying water is bad. There have to be other factors.
Evolutionarily successful only means living long enough to reproduce. If your diet is unlikely to kill you before you reproduce, then it is sufficient from an evolutionary standpoint. That doesn't mean that the diet is favorable to a lengthened lifespan.
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