Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:53 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Science doesn't prescribe a color for the sky.
On the contrary, see the source below.

LiveScience: Why is the sky blue?.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:37 pm

prescribe: 1. Issue commands or orders for
2. Suggest, order or authorize (a drug or medical device) for use by a particular patient

why: The cause or intention underlying an action or situation

aka: prescribe is not the same concept as why
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:29 am

But sometimes the sky is grey, or greenish. You're missing the whole point of the question, and I think it's on purpose because you know "non-beliefism" is idiotic and indefensible.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by mirror93 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:08 am

I bet anyone here that _exist is another non dualist troll
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:34 am

I believe I'm not convinced of that. Who's _exist? :-P
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Austin Harper wrote:But sometimes the sky is grey, or greenish. You're missing the whole point of the question, and I think it's on purpose because you know "non-beliefism" is idiotic and indefensible.
1.) No, ironically, you fail to detect that science prescribes descriptions of the cosmos, including the sky.

2.) Crucially, science applies regardless of anybody's belief.

3.) Does gravitational theory fail due to flat earth belief?

4.) Do equations suddenly empirically apply because scientists supply belief?

5.) Lastly, is it true or false that the concept of belief generally permits the ignorance of evidence?
Last edited by _exit on Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:35 pm

Would science exit without sentient beings?
Nope.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:39 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Would science exit without sentient beings?
Nope.
I don't detect the significance of your remark above.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:43 pm

_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:But sometimes the sky is grey, or greenish. You're missing the whole point of the question, and I think it's on purpose because you know "non-beliefism" is idiotic and indefensible.
1.) No, ironically, you fail to detect that science prescribes descriptions of the cosmos, including the sky.

2.) Crucially, science applies regardless of anybody's belief.

3.) Does gravitational theory fail due to flat earth belief?

4.) Do equations suddenly empirically apply because scientists supply belief?

5.) Lastly, is it true or false that the concept of belief generally permits the ignorance of evidence?
There are theories that predict what color the sky will appear to be to a given observer under given conditions, but that doesn't do any good if the person asking the question doesn't have all the inputs. If I'm asking what color the sky is because I've been indoors all day and you spout off this nonsense that's not helpful.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:46 pm

mirror93 wrote:I bet anyone here that _exist is another non dualist troll
Contrarily, as somebody who seeks to contribute to the development of artificial general intelligence, I observe (as far as science goes) that all the mind's processes are physical.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:48 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:But sometimes the sky is grey, or greenish. You're missing the whole point of the question, and I think it's on purpose because you know "non-beliefism" is idiotic and indefensible.
1.) No, ironically, you fail to detect that science prescribes descriptions of the cosmos, including the sky.

2.) Crucially, science applies regardless of anybody's belief.

3.) Does gravitational theory fail due to flat earth belief?

4.) Do equations suddenly empirically apply because scientists supply belief?

5.) Lastly, is it true or false that the concept of belief generally permits the ignorance of evidence?
There are theories that predict what color the sky will appear to be to a given observer under given conditions, but that doesn't do any good if the person asking the question doesn't have all the inputs. If I'm asking what color the sky is because I've been indoors all day and you spout off this nonsense that's not helpful.
1.) That a person is unaware of the science, or fails to seek the science does not suddenly warrant that the science does not exist.

2.) Anyway, is it true or false that the concept of belief generally permits the ignorance of evidence?

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:51 pm

1) That's ridiculous. I'm familiar with science, I just want to know if the sky is grey right now because I've been indoors all day.
2) Belief is needed in the absence of evidence. If I know the sky was blue 1 second ago and it's blue now, I believe it remained blue for the fraction of a second when I was blinking.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:00 am

Austin Harper wrote:1) That's ridiculous. I'm familiar with science, I just want to know if the sky is grey right now because I've been indoors all day.
2) Belief is needed in the absence of evidence. If I know the sky was blue 1 second ago and it's blue now, I believe it remained blue for the fraction of a second when I was blinking.
1.) You may contact scientific data to observe probabilities. (For which belief is not required)

2.) Yes, belief is typically used when science is absent (as per definition and research, as cited in OP).

Otherwise, we can recognize probabilities, which may occur regardless of belief, i.e. the probability of the sky possessing whichever appearance.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:05 pm

Maybe belief wouldn't be necessary if everybody had every piece of evidence at all times, but that is impossible. Nobody is omniscient and to be able to function in the world you have to operate partially on belief. Those beliefs can and should be based on facts and theories, but you can't remove belief from your life.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:42 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Maybe belief wouldn't be necessary if everybody had every piece of evidence at all times, but that is impossible. Nobody is omniscient and to be able to function in the world you have to operate partially on belief. Those beliefs can and should be based on facts and theories, but you can't remove belief from your life.

1.) Why ignore the content on nonbeliefism, only to express nonsense?

2.) Nonbeliefism had long underlined:
nonbeliefism.com wrote: Easily, we can see that there is a successful model that enables humans to prioritize evidence, without looking at all possible evidence. (Science is that model, Science is something that permits this everyday; Scientific hypothesis and Scientific theory both concern evidence prioritization contrary to the concept of belief.)
nonbeliefism.com wrote: As we can't observe all evidence at once, both non-beliefism and belief permit that mistakes may be made while considering evidence; with the large difference that non-beliefism promotes that mistakes are repaired because of evidence prioritization, while belief generally facilitates that mistakes proceed unadjusted, especially when belief tends to facilitate that people twist evidence to suit their old beliefs (i.e. ignorance/distortion of evidence), thus promoting that old mistakes go on unrepaired.
3.) Recall that:

b.) Belief: A model that generally facilitates ignorance of evidence.

c.) Scientific thinking: Generally facilitates keenness of evidence.

(Crucially, for both models above, not all evidence is available all the time!)

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:50 pm

1) I'm not ignoring non-beliefism, I'm ignoring your page. Nobody here wants to visit your site. You can make an argument here if you want. I'm not going to click over to your page just to bump up your ad revenue or whatever your goal is.
2) Your usage of belief is not the common one. You've made it up to suit your idea of non-beliefism. See below.
3) You give a link the definition of belief, then make up your own that contradicts that definition. Here is what your link says:
Oxford Dictionaries wrote:1 An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
1.1 Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
1.2 A religious conviction.
2 (belief in) Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
I think we can all agree that 1.2 is something we can be opposed to but the other three uses are useful and necessary.

This forum exists to promote science and critical thinking. Everybody here believes that the scientific method is sound and that we should look at the world with a rational worldview. But that doesn't mean we can completely avoid belief. Yes, we should always use evidence to support our beliefs. If there is contradictory evidence, then those beliefs must be discarded. But some level of beliefs are necessary to function in life. In your own word, "we can't observe all evidence". Beliefs allow us to fill in the gaps.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:26 pm

Austin Harper wrote:1) I'm not ignoring non-beliefism, I'm ignoring your page. Nobody here wants to visit your site. You can make an argument here if you want. I'm not going to click over to your page just to bump up your ad revenue or whatever your goal is.
2) Your usage of belief is not the common one. You've made it up to suit your idea of non-beliefism. See below.
3) You give a link the definition of belief, then make up your own that contradicts that definition. Here is what your link says:
Oxford Dictionaries wrote:1 An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
1.1 Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
1.2 A religious conviction.
2 (belief in) Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
I think we can all agree that 1.2 is something we can be opposed to but the other three uses are useful and necessary.

This forum exists to promote science and critical thinking. Everybody here believes that the scientific method is sound and that we should look at the world with a rational worldview. But that doesn't mean we can completely avoid belief. Yes, we should always use evidence to support our beliefs. If there is contradictory evidence, then those beliefs must be discarded. But some level of beliefs are necessary to function in life. In your own word, "we can't observe all evidence". Beliefs allow us to fill in the gaps.
Image

1.) Crucially, as I said before, I am not ignoring evidenced based beliefs, but instead, I underlined that while belief may permit evidence, it generally facilitates ignorance of evidence the remainder of the time, which you continue to ignore.

2.) Ironically, you are homing in on the portion of belief that may concern evidence, while ignoring the remainder of the concept.

3.) The concept doesn't stop at evidenced based things, it goes on to largely facilitate ignorance of evidence. (As definition and research shows, as underlined in OP!)

4.) I could copy and paste the points, but why do that when the website already contains the relevant data? Do you copy and paste all of a website's content, when your refer to a source? If not, why expect me to do the same?

5.) You are still ignoring that belief generally facilitates ignorance of evidence, while scientific thinking does not. I ponder why?

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:14 pm

I think the problem here is that you aren't using the common definitions of belief or facilitate. How does belief facilitate ignorance? It's how we cope with ignorance.

As I have already said, nobody here wants to go to your site and bump up your hits. Either make a coherent argument or go away.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:53 pm

_exit wrote: 5.) You are still ignoring that belief generally facilitates ignorance of evidence, while scientific thinking does not. I ponder why?
So what? Its beyond OBVIOUS that given the ratio of belief vs scientific thinking our species/society has advanced to: LANDING ON THE MOON even while the belief systems are as strong as ever. So....what point are you possibly trying to make?

There is one lament that atheists constantly make.......let's see if you stumble onto it?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:50 am

Austin Harper wrote:I think the problem here is that you aren't using the common definitions of belief or facilitate. How does belief facilitate ignorance? It's how we cope with ignorance.

As I have already said, nobody here wants to go to your site and bump up your hits. Either make a coherent argument or go away.
I am using standard English dictionary definitions, as underlined in the OP.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:52 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
_exit wrote: 5.) You are still ignoring that belief generally facilitates ignorance of evidence, while scientific thinking does not. I ponder why?
So what? Its beyond OBVIOUS that given the ratio of belief vs scientific thinking our species/society has advanced to: LANDING ON THE MOON even while the belief systems are as strong as ever. So....what point are you possibly trying to make?

There is one lament that atheists constantly make.......let's see if you stumble onto it?
Belief's non-trivial/negative impact, had long been underlined in nonbeliefism.

Focus on modern science (instead of archaic science/pseudoscience/nonsense) could garner more advancement.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:57 am

exit: its dishonest to argue in circles by mere repetition. Engage the dialectic. See immediate previous post and answer any of the frickin questions.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:exit: its dishonest to argue in circles by mere repetition. Engage the dialectic. See immediate previous post and answer any of the frickin questions.
See my prior response carefully.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:14 pm

_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:I think the problem here is that you aren't using the common definitions of belief or facilitate. How does belief facilitate ignorance? It's how we cope with ignorance.

As I have already said, nobody here wants to go to your site and bump up your hits. Either make a coherent argument or go away.
I am using standard English dictionary definitions, as underlined in the OP.
Define the following terms:
Please provide the definitions of "belief" and "facilitate" that you are using.

Also please answer the question "How does belief facilitate ignorance?"
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:29 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:I think the problem here is that you aren't using the common definitions of belief or facilitate. How does belief facilitate ignorance? It's how we cope with ignorance.

As I have already said, nobody here wants to go to your site and bump up your hits. Either make a coherent argument or go away.
I am using standard English dictionary definitions, as underlined in the OP.
Define the following terms:
Please provide the definitions of "belief" and "facilitate" that you are using.
I am using standard dictionary definitions.
Austin Harper wrote: Also please answer the question "How does belief facilitate ignorance?"
Belief: To accept something as true especially absent evidence.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:52 pm

_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Define the following terms:
Please provide the definitions of "belief" and "facilitate" that you are using.
I am using standard dictionary definitions.
Austin Harper wrote: Also please answer the question "How does belief facilitate ignorance?"
Belief: To accept something as true especially absent evidence.
It's really strange that you again link to a dictionary, then don't use the definition it provides. Instead you slightly changed the first definition ("an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof) and then ignored the others "something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion," "a religious conviction," and "trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)". You also gave that partial definition underneath my question as if it was an answer (which it wasn't) instead of under the part where I asked for your definition. I'll get back to why you need to use the rest of the definition of the word if you're going to say we shouldn't have any beliefs in any sense of the word, but first you need to explain how belief facilitates ignorance.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:59 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Define the following terms:
Please provide the definitions of "belief" and "facilitate" that you are using.
I am using standard dictionary definitions.
Austin Harper wrote: Also please answer the question "How does belief facilitate ignorance?"
Belief: To accept something as true especially absent evidence.
It's really strange that you again link to a dictionary, then don't use the definition it provides. Instead you slightly changed the first definition ("an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof) and then ignored the others "something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion," "a religious conviction," and "trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)". You also gave that partial definition underneath my question as if it was an answer (which it wasn't) instead of under the part where I asked for your definition. I'll get back to why you need to use the rest of the definition of the word if you're going to say we shouldn't have any beliefs in any sense of the word, but first you need to explain how belief facilitates ignorance.
1.) How did I supposedly not use the definition provided? (Please see my prior post, where the definition was correctly used.)

2.) The concept of belief generally permits that evidence is ignored, i.e. belief generally facilitates evidence ignorance. (Is English your first language?)

3.) I am the only person here who is sensibly observing all meanings of the concept of belief. You continue to home in on the minor portion of belief, that is belief that may occur on evidence.

The concept of belief doesn't stop at the minor portion that permits evidence, by extension the major portion generally facilitates ignorance of evidence:

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:12 pm

  1. You changed the definition that was on the page you linked to and omitted the majority of it.
  2. Belief doesn't "permit" evidence to be ignored. It's what is used in the absence of evidence. English is my first language (of six). I don't have problems speaking with anybody here except you. Meanwhile, you can't express your ideas clearly in this thread or your other one.
  3. You clearly aren't talking about all forms of belief since you intentionally removed some of them from your working definition. You can't get upset that I'm homing in on a particular piece of the definition if you're claiming it's useless in all meanings.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:30 pm

Just to provide a breather for Austin:
_exit wrote:1.) How did I supposedly not use the definition provided? (Please see my prior post, where the definition was correctly used.)
You define belief "To accept something as true especially absent evidence." but your OP Statement and your following two circle diagrams total blur and equate the very distinction between belief (as religion) and science (as a belief in the scientific process). So...as stated...you define words/concepts variously but don't thereafter use any of them consistently. aka: a Hot Mess.
_exit wrote: 2.) The concept of belief generally permits that evidence is ignored, i.e. belief generally facilitates evidence ignorance. (Is English your first language?)
Lets go with that. Now: in your OP statement of "Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!" what other than religious belief are you referring to? Tell us, and then stick with that.
_exit wrote: 3.) I am the only person here who is sensibly observing all meanings of the concept of belief. You continue to home in on the minor portion of belief, that is belief that may occur on evidence.
And there it is again. .....or is it your position that you can thereafter be consistent on that belief occurring "on evidence" is actually science...and that belief is in the PROCESS of applying the scientific method rather than specific outcomes? Or is your position something else?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:39 pm

Another way to try to take a fresh look at the subject is to go to consequences.

Exit: if we could understand what point you are making, what issue of interest would be better understood? ie: take any issue/idea/thought/meme as it is generally understood and show how belief shapes our understanding of it, and how abolishing said identified belief system would change our understanding. Everything I can think of...is just too obvious.

I mean: is your position just as simple as saying Belief systems allow people to think the Earth is Flat ((for which there is evidence for and against)) and if we abolish Flat Earth thinking with evidence, then everyone will think the Earth is round. I mean.....is that how deep it goes....or what?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Just to provide a breather for Austin:
_exit wrote:1.) How did I supposedly not use the definition provided? (Please see my prior post, where the definition was correctly used.)
You define belief "To accept something as true especially absent evidence." but your OP Statement and your following two circle diagrams total blur and equate the very distinction between belief (as religion) and science (as a belief in the scientific process). So...as stated...you define words/concepts variously but don't thereafter use any of them consistently. aka: a Hot Mess.
On the contrary, I have consistently cited the definitions.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
_exit wrote: 2.) The concept of belief generally permits that evidence is ignored, i.e. belief generally facilitates evidence ignorance. (Is English your first language?)
Lets go with that. Now: in your OP statement of "Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!" what other than religious belief are you referring to? Tell us, and then stick with that.
You falsely presume that religious beliefs are the only nonsensical beliefs that may be absent evidence.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
_exit wrote: 3.) I am the only person here who is sensibly observing all meanings of the concept of belief. You continue to home in on the minor portion of belief, that is belief that may occur on evidence.
And there it is again. .....or is it your position that you can thereafter be consistent on that belief occurring "on evidence" is actually science...and that belief is in the PROCESS of applying the scientific method rather than specific outcomes? Or is your position something else?
1.) Yes, one may believe in evidence based stuff, as I had long underlined from the Op.

2.) However, belief is a concept that doesn't end at permitting evidence based stuff.

Not only does the concept permit non evidenced bases stuff, it does so in general.

This means belief permits evidence based stuff a small amount of the time, while otherwise permitting nonsense/non evidence most of the time, as per definition and research, as long cited in the Op.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Another way to try to take a fresh look at the subject is to go to consequences.

Exit: if we could understand what point you are making, what issue of interest would be better understood? ie: take any issue/idea/thought/meme as it is generally understood and show how belief shapes our understanding of it, and how abolishing said identified belief system would change our understanding. Everything I can think of...is just too obvious.

I mean: is your position just as simple as saying Belief systems allow people to think the Earth is Flat ((for which there is evidence for and against)) and if we abolish Flat Earth thinking with evidence, then everyone will think the Earth is round. I mean.....is that how deep it goes....or what?
Precisely, abandon the concept of belief, and instead, contact a model that generally encourages keenness of evidence.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:19 am

_exit wrote: Precisely, abandon the concept of belief, and instead, contact a model that generally encourages keenness of evidence.
Well, overlooking the use of "keenness", EVERYONE agrees with that. Amusing that 3 pages of fog can so easily be cleared up. Do you see.....it? Just SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. Straightforward and simple.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:16 am

Austin Harper wrote:
  1. You changed the definition that was on the page you linked to and omitted the majority of it.
  2. Belief doesn't "permit" evidence to be ignored. It's what is used in the absence of evidence. English is my first language (of six). I don't have problems speaking with anybody here except you. Meanwhile, you can't express your ideas clearly in this thread or your other one.
  3. You clearly aren't talking about all forms of belief since you intentionally removed some of them from your working definition. You can't get upset that I'm homing in on a particular piece of the definition if you're claiming it's useless in all meanings.
1.) No such change nor omission occurred.

2.) Belief definition: To accept as true, especially absent evidence.

That meaning already encompasses the other meanings of belief; i.e. when evidence isn't especially ignored, there are particularly times when evidence is considered! (Is your first language English?)

3.) Belief does indeed permit evidence to be ignored, as per definition.

4.) Your statement is false that belief is used in the absence of evidence! Belief does not necessarily concern non-evidenced stuff! (See the definitions)

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:07 pm

  1. This is an obvious lie. I'm done engaging with you if you can't be truthful about basic facts.
    • _exit definition:
      To accept something as true especially absent evidence.
    • Oxford definition:
      1. An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
      1.1 Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
      1.2 A religious conviction.
      2. Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
    • These are not the same.
  2. This doesn't address my point at all, it's more of a response to #1. Why do you number all of your points if you're not going to be consistent with what's in each section? As I've clearly said, English is my first language. It shouldn't matter whether it is or not since I'm speaking it well. It is you who is having trouble communicating your points. Don't try to pin your shortcomings on others.
  3. You keep saying this, but when I ask you to explain what you mean by that, you just state your claim again. You must justify it. I'll ask again. HOW does belief "permit" evidence to be ignored?
  4. Belief is certainly used in the absence of evidence. You even said so in your own definition: to accept something as true especially absent evidence.
If you would like to continue to discuss this, I'm going to need you to do three things.
  • Admit that you changed the definition of belief to suit your claims as shown in Point 1 above.
  • Start using the entire definition that you cited and which I have reproduced in full in Point 1 above.
  • Justify your claim that belief permits evidence to be ignored.
If you fail to do these three things it will demonstrate that you are not interested in an honest discussion and I will not respond any further to you.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:03 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
  1. This is an obvious lie. I'm done engaging with you if you can't be truthful about basic facts.
    • _exit definition:
      To accept something as true especially absent evidence.
    • Oxford definition:
      1. An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
      1.1 Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
      1.2 A religious conviction.
      2. Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
    • These are not the same.
i.) No such lie was told (by myself).

ii.) Both the OP and the website (that you chose to ignore) had long underlined the various meanings under belief!

1.) The definition: "To accept something as true especially absent evidence." (Already encompasses the remainder of the meanings!)

2.) Here's a digram to explain things in toddler like fashion:

Image
Austin Harper wrote: [*]This doesn't address my point at all, it's more of a response to #1. Why do you number all of your points if you're not going to be consistent with what's in each section? As I've clearly said, English is my first language. It shouldn't matter whether it is or not since I'm speaking it well. It is you who is having trouble communicating your points. Don't try to pin your shortcomings on others.
[*]You keep saying this, but when I ask you to explain what you mean by that, you just state your claim again. You must justify it. I'll ask again. HOW does belief "permit" evidence to be ignored?
3.) Given that the definition of belief consists of general ignorance of evidence, it literally generally permits ignorance of evidence!
Austin Harper wrote: [*]Belief is certainly used in the absence of evidence. You even said so in your own definition: to accept something as true especially absent evidence.
Given your priorly vague statement:
Austin Harper wrote: Belief doesn't "permit" evidence to be ignored. It's what is used in the absence of evidence.
4.) I simply underlined that belief is not merely used in the absence of evidence, as a clarification of your vague words in bold above.

5.) Of course, your other words above, that belief supposedly doesn't permit evidence ignorance, is demonstrably false, as underlined in item (3) above.
Austin Harper wrote: If you would like to continue to discuss this, I'm going to need you to do three things.
  • Admit that you changed the definition of belief to suit your claims as shown in Point 1 above.
  • Start using the entire definition that you cited and which I have reproduced in full in Point 1 above.
  • Justify your claim that belief permits evidence to be ignored.
[/list]
If you fail to do these three things it will demonstrate that you are not interested in an honest discussion and I will not respond any further to you.[/align]
6.) No such definition change occurred. (See the diagram in item (2)). You also ignored the website from the OP, that had long underlined all meanings.

7.) The OP had also long underlined the various belief meanings. (See the diagram in item (2)).

8.) The concept of belief unavoidably permits evidence ignorance, as underlined in item (3).
Last edited by _exit on Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
_exit wrote: Precisely, abandon the concept of belief, and instead, contact a model that generally encourages keenness of evidence.
Well, overlooking the use of "keenness", EVERYONE agrees with that. Amusing that 3 pages of fog can so easily be cleared up. Do you see.....it? Just SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. Straightforward and simple.
Well, the OP had long underlined the above.
OP wrote: ...Instead, we may employ scientific thinking, that largely prioritizes evidence, rather than a model (i.e. belief) that facilitates largely, the ignorance of evidence...
You are however correct, although the "fog" was not generated by myself.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:58 pm

1) I quoted your omission and you still deny it. I'm not dealing with you anymore.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:16 am

Austin Harper wrote:1) I quoted your omission and you still deny it. I'm not dealing with you anymore.
On the contrary, no such omission occurred, I had long argued for the various meanings of belief, as seen in the OP, and as observed in the very quote you cited!
Austin Harper wrote:
  1. This is an obvious lie. I'm done engaging with you if you can't be truthful about basic facts.
    • _exit definition:
      To accept something as true especially absent evidence.
    • Oxford definition:
      1. An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
      1.1 Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
      1.2 A religious conviction.
      2. Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
    • These are not the same.
1.) Notice that my definition above, already contains the subsequent meanings. (This is how dictionaries work!)

2.) "Especially absent evidence" means that where especially does not apply, evidence does!

As such, evidence based beliefs naturally follow from the definition I cited above, as well as the definition you cited (although belief mostly facilitates non-evidence based stuff).

3.) Consider my prior quote:
_exit wrote:
(a) BeliefConcept = Generally NonEvidencedBeliefs (science incompatible) + EvidencedBeliefs (science compatible). (As per definition/research)

(b) ScienticThinking = Generally EvidencedBasedStuff (science compatible).
4.) The expression of mine, that you cited (along with the other Oxford meanings), already encompasses both non-evidence based beliefs, and evidence based beliefs, although my expression (that you cited) doesn't use the words "evidence based beliefs"!
Last edited by _exit on Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Aztexan » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:05 am

I believe he said 'Good day, sir'!
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