Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

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Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:02 pm


  1. As Neil deGrasse Tyson says, science is true whether or not one believes in it!
  2. Pertinently, that one may believe in science, does not suddenly remove that belief is a concept that permits that one may typically ignore evidence, as observed in the analysis below:

    • Belief (by definition and research) is a model, such that one may believe in both science, and non-science.
    • However, crucially, belief typically facilitates that people especially ignore evidence.
    • A model (i.e. belief) that generally permits the large ignorance of evidence contrasts science.
    • Instead, we may employ scientific thinking, that largely prioritizes evidence, rather than a model (i.e. belief) that facilitates largely, the ignorance of evidence.
  3. Unfortunately, I had been a theist up until my 21'st birthday. Fortunately, at age 22 (I am now 27), I finally identified as an atheist. After 4 years of being an atheist, one day I thought about belief, and I recognized that not only was theistic faith invalid, but also, the very concept of belief!

    • As a precaution for preventing myself from absorbing nonsense, I had come to invent something called "non beliefism".
    • Beyond atheism, "non beliefism" enables a state of mind that rejects not merely religious belief, but the very concept of belief.
Last edited by _exit on Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:09 pm

guessing you still believe in making money .

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:27 pm

I believe I'll have another beer.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:30 pm

I think Nikki's signature says it best: from memory: "Science is NOT a set of beliefs, but rather a process."

Your insights are well understood and already in multiple books and essays to the point of becoming aphorisms.

...............Thats true with about everything we think......from the Greeks to today. Nothing new under the sun.

Its .................... humbling.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I think Nikki's signature says it best: from memory: "Science is NOT a set of beliefs, but rather a process."

Your insights are well understood and already in multiple books and essays to the point of becoming aphorisms.

...............Thats true with about everything we think......from the Greeks to today. Nothing new under the sun.

Its .................... humbling.
I don't doubt that this type of thinking is old.

"Non-beliefism" had long underlined that we can, instead of practice the concept of belief, do scientific thinking.

Scientific thinking is an old type of thinking, although uncommon in a regime where a majority of beings prefer to generally ignore evidence!

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:13 am

You might as well try to get sneezing abolished.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:57 am

ElectricMonk wrote:You might as well try to get sneezing abolished.
Yep, holding humans to an unreasonable standard will get your standards ignored. Nice try, Mr. Wild-eyed Arm Waver, but it ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:08 am

I can't believe it.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:03 pm

Pyrrho wrote:I can't believe it.
♫I believe I can fly.♫
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:55 pm

This premise is ridiculous. You believe that belief should be abolished.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:18 pm

Austin Harper wrote:This premise is ridiculous. You believe that belief should be abolished.
1.) Your response is typical, however disappointing, as far as evidence goes.

2.) We can avoid the concept of belief (which generally permits that evidence is ignored).

3.) Instead of belief, we may contact a model (scientific thinking) that generally facilitates that evidence is prioritized.

4.) Do you garner that evidence "cares" about what people believe? Does gravitational theory suddenly stop working because of flat earth belief? Do equations suddenly work empirically based on the amount of belief that may be supplied by scientists?

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:31 pm

Are you twelve or what?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:12 pm

By "non belief-ism" do you mean rationalism? You're about 400 years late "inventing" that idea.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:50 pm

Austin Harper wrote:By "non belief-ism" do you mean rationalism? You're about 400 years late "inventing" that idea.
"Every generation storms ramparts that fell long ago."
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:26 pm

~2300 years ago, the Greek philosopher, Pyrrho espoused:
A summary of Pyrrho's philosophy was preserved by Eusebius, quoting Aristocles, quoting Timon, in what is known as the "Aristocles passage."

"Whoever wants to live well (eudaimonia) must consider these three questions: First, how are pragmata (ethical matters, affairs, topics) by nature? Secondly, what attitude should we adopt towards them? Thirdly, what will be the outcome for those who have this attitude?" Pyrrho's answer is that "As for pragmata they are all adiaphora (undifferentiated by a logical differentia), astathmēta (unstable, unbalanced, not measurable), and anepikrita (unjudged, unfixed, undecidable). Therefore, neither our sense-perceptions nor our doxai (views, theories, beliefs) tell us the truth or lie; so we certainly should not rely on them. Rather, we should be adoxastous (without views), aklineis (uninclined toward this side or that), and akradantous (unwavering in our refusal to choose), saying about every single one that it no more is than it is not or it both is and is not or it neither is nor is not.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm

Yeah, dat {!#%@} dere.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:01 pm

Image
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:41 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Image
Yeahhhhhhh.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:59 am

Austin Harper wrote:By "non belief-ism" do you mean rationalism? You're about 400 years late "inventing" that idea.
1.) As an atheist, I had long encountered rationalism.

2.) Notably, rationalism permits the concept of belief, while nonbeliefism does not.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:41 am

Non-beliefism: word not found.

.....................we all know what THAT means.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:17 am

From the wiki:
The main principle of Pyrrho's thought is expressed by the word acatalepsia, which connotes the ability to withhold assent from doctrines regarding the truth of things in their own nature; against every statement its contradiction may be advanced with equal justification.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrho#Pyrrhonism

Hmmmm..... seems to me the flaw here is that RARELY will any proposition have equal arguments of both sides. Makes me wonder then "in practice" what made Pyrrhonism attractive at all. Perhaps it was the Academic strain? Not interested enough to look it up. The more mature philosophy of existential pragmatism covers it quite well.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:31 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Are you twelve or what?
No, 27.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:49 am

We seem to have a semantic problem here, one with which I myself have struggled over the years: What do we mean by the word "belief"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
"With or without...empirical evidence" and "with factual certainty".

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief
1 - An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
1.1 - Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
1.2 - A religious conviction.

2 - (belief in) Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something).
"Especially one without proof", "opinion", "conviction". Even "confidence".

So it's possible for someone to "believe" in something based on the evidence. In fact, one could say one's "belief" grows stronger as the evidence amasses. But at what point does a "belief" become "knowledge"? Is it even possible for "knowledge" to ever actually exist?

Yuck. Epistemology. We hates it, precious.



It's one of the reasons why I try to avoid words like "know" and "believe" and just go with "probably" and "currently accepted" and "until more information comes along" whenever I'm trying to be more exact.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:From the wiki:
The main principle of Pyrrho's thought is expressed by the word acatalepsia, which connotes the ability to withhold assent from doctrines regarding the truth of things in their own nature; against every statement its contradiction may be advanced with equal justification.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrho#Pyrrhonism

Hmmmm..... seems to me the flaw here is that RARELY will any proposition have equal arguments of both sides. Makes me wonder then "in practice" what made Pyrrhonism attractive at all. Perhaps it was the Academic strain? Not interested enough to look it up. The more mature philosophy of existential pragmatism covers it quite well.
As I understand it, Pyrrhonism was a "response" to blowhards of the day who claimed to know a whole lot more than everybody else. In essence, Pyrrhonism asserts that we cannot absolutely know the true nature of things--our senses are limited and can be deceived...and then there is selection bias, etc.

We see a similar "response" with Socrates.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:22 pm

Pyrrho wrote: As I understand it, Pyrrhonism was a "response" to blowhards of the day who claimed to know a whole lot more than everybody else.
Not surprising that that sounds like skepticism.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:34 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: As I understand it, Pyrrhonism was a "response" to blowhards of the day who claimed to know a whole lot more than everybody else.
Not surprising that that sounds like skepticism.
Skepticism permits the concept of belief, while non-beliefism does not.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:39 pm

Gord wrote:We seem to have a semantic problem here, one with which I myself have struggled over the years: What do we mean by the word "belief"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.
"With or without...empirical evidence" and "with factual certainty".

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/belief
1 - An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
1.1 - Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
1.2 - A religious conviction.

2 - (belief in) Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something).
"Especially one without proof", "opinion", "conviction". Even "confidence".

So it's possible for someone to "believe" in something based on the evidence. In fact, one could say one's "belief" grows stronger as the evidence amasses. But at what point does a "belief" become "knowledge"? Is it even possible for "knowledge" to ever actually exist?

Yuck. Epistemology. We hates it, precious.



It's one of the reasons why I try to avoid words like "know" and "believe" and just go with "probably" and "currently accepted" and "until more information comes along" whenever I'm trying to be more exact.

1.) Non-beliefism
had long underlined that one may believe in science. (In fact, the definition you provided above, is on the website.)

2.) Notably, that one may believe in science does not change the reality that belief is a concept that generally facilitates that evidence is ignored.

This means that while one may rarely believe in evidence, one otherwise typically ignores evidence while believing. This contrasts scientific thinking.

2.b) You ought to recognize that scientific thinking is not in the business of "especially ignoring evidence", as the concept of belief permits!!
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:40 pm

Could you provide the definition of the word "belief" you're using?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:44 pm

Austin Harper wrote:Could you provide the definition of the word "belief" you're using?
There is no definition of belief (as many definitions as I have come across) that is absent a description that permits ignorance of evidence.

Albeit, the website provides the same definition provided by "Gord" earlier. The website also cites cognitive research on belief.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:50 pm

It's going to be impossible for us to talk about belief if you won't tell us what you mean by that word. As was pointed out, it can be used in multiple ways. Which way are you using it in this thread?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:59 pm

_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:Could you provide the definition of the word "belief" you're using?
There is no definition of belief (as many definitions as I have come across) that is absent a description that permits ignorance of evidence......
Yeah.........so could you post the definition you are using?....or are you going to continue to demonstrate what Pyrrho of Ellis was railing against?

Note: I get that Pyrrhosim is a counter to blowhard religion and its postulation of certainty through the mechanism of belief......but that does not requiring going so far as to suppose that any idea can be negating by finding equal arguments against it. That I believe requires way too much and people might say and think they are doing that, but all they are more simply doing is "acatalepsia" or "withholding their assent" to any doctrine advocated. You don't even need "reasons" or arguments to do that. Just "don't believe." Absent real world consequences like taking a long walk on a short pier, there is little reason in this universe to believe: anything.

I do love the insight that having a big brain has not yet proven itself to be superior adaptive mechanism. Logically...to me... it appears the very opposite.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:07 pm

Austin Harper wrote:It's going to be impossible for us to talk about belief if you won't tell us what you mean by that word. As was pointed out, it can be used in multiple ways. Which way are you using it in this thread?
Here is a helpful diagram:

Image

So, belief is not a contronym; the meaning which talks about evidence based beliefs, does not oppose the other meaning about especially ignoring evidence!

Notice also that science does not contain any meaning regarding especially ignoring evidence.

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:26 pm

Say exit: you post just like a theist.

Definition of theist: full of it.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:39 pm

_exit wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: As I understand it, Pyrrhonism was a "response" to blowhards of the day who claimed to know a whole lot more than everybody else.
Not surprising that that sounds like skepticism.
Skepticism permits the concept of belief, while non-beliefism does not.
No, we merely hold temporary, provisional conclusions while we continue to evaluate evidence, hypothesis, theory, and law.
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:03 pm

OP sure is dancing. Image
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:46 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Say exit: you post just like a theist.

Definition of theist: full of it.
What do you gain by calling an atheist a theist?

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:13 pm

exit: you are known not by who you think you are but rather as you present yourself. You present as a theist: a word game player, a rhetorician, NOT an honest debater. Kinda the modern update of a Jesuit although not as cloistered.

What do you gain by rarely answering a direct question and not defining your words?
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Austin Harper
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by Austin Harper » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:33 am

_exit wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:It's going to be impossible for us to talk about belief if you won't tell us what you mean by that word. As was pointed out, it can be used in multiple ways. Which way are you using it in this thread?
So, belief is not a contronym; the meaning which talks about evidence based beliefs, does not oppose the other meaning about especially ignoring evidence!

Notice also that science does not contain any meaning regarding especially ignoring evidence.
Well, you put in a picture telling us two definitions of the word that we've already established are definitions (and which has two blank lines and a bunch of dead space for no reason) instead of telling us which definition you are using in your claim that belief should be abolished. So are you claiming that nobody should hold any beliefs of any kind? Not only should people not believe in God but they shouldn't believe that the sky is still blue if they close their eyes?
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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by _exit » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:exit: you are known not by who you think you are but rather as you present yourself. You present as a theist: a word game player, a rhetorician, NOT an honest debater. Kinda the modern update of a Jesuit although not as cloistered.

What do you gain by rarely answering a direct question and not defining your words?
As I said prior, the Op had long cited the definition in question!

Signature: I am interested in completing a novel learning model I call the "Supersymmetric Artificial Neural Network".

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Re: Belief (not just religious belief) ought to be abolished!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:44 am

Sorry exit: you gave a general review of the definition NOT choosing/identifying how YOU use it. But rereading the OP...I see you were first or earlier a self recognized theist. Ha, ha.........as the twig is bent...........
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?