Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

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Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:11 am



Reminder: One ought not to confuse the teleological argument (purpose in the realm of subjectivity/deities/religion), with teleonomy (purpose in the realm of objectivity/science); this thread is concerned with purpose in the realm of science.

I became an atheist several years ago, and for a long while I thought life was purposeless. I am still an atheist today, but two years ago, I discovered that science had something to say about the purpose of human life in particular.
  • Science reasonably indicates that the purpose of human life is likely to engineer the creation of Artificial General Intelligence!
  • But why is the purpose of human life reasonably to create Artificial General Intelligence?
Source: Research-gate/Why is the purpose of life to build Artificial General Intelligence?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:19 am

I wouldn't call it purpose ... more of universal law of evolution:

Over time, life tends towards greater complexity. The same holds for any system capable of evolution.
Computer science is a possibly inexhaustible source of complexity. Hence we can assume that (barring extinctions), humanity will come up with true A.I. at some point, simply because programs need to become more complex in order to compete with programs of current complexity.
If, for some reasons, humans don't manage to create true A.I., very likely another intelligent specie in another place and/or time will.

I see an inevitability to this, but not a purpose.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gord » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:39 am

The purpose of human life, obviously, is to own a dog.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:40 am

We need a forum titled "Attack of the Buzz Words".
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:40 am

Gord wrote:The purpose of human life, obviously, is to own a dog.
Dogs are domesticated. Cats are still considering it.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gord » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:41 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:We need a forum titled "Attack of the Buzz Words".
"Climate change denial" isn't cutting it for ya?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:42 am

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:We need a forum titled "Attack of the Buzz Words".
"Climate change denial" isn't cutting it for ya?
Too specific. Generalist in action, ya know.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:23 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I wouldn't call it purpose ... more of universal law of evolution:

Over time, life tends towards greater complexity. The same holds for any system capable of evolution.
Computer science is a possibly inexhaustible source of complexity. Hence we can assume that (barring extinctions), humanity will come up with true A.I. at some point, simply because programs need to become more complex in order to compete with programs of current complexity.
If, for some reasons, humans don't manage to create true A.I., very likely another intelligent specie in another place and/or time will.

I see an inevitability to this, but not a purpose.
1.) You probably ought to take a look at the reminder in the OP. (The very first sentence)

2.) That line describes teleonomy, which many persons tend to be unaware of.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Poodle » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:39 pm

There are so many 'reasonably's and 'may's that I have an overwhelming urge to provide a lot of 'if's and 'but's. So there they are, indicating (to me, at least) that life's purpose, if there is such a thing, is to provide me with amusing diversion in an otherwise humdrum day.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:24 pm

_exit wrote:
2.) That line describes teleonomy, which many persons tend to be unaware of.
Yeah, but its rubbish since evolution isn't end-directed.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:49 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
_exit wrote:
2.) That line describes teleonomy, which many persons tend to be unaware of.
Yeah, but its rubbish since evolution isn't end-directed.
What are you attempting to argue against? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong thread?

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:06 pm

_exit wrote: What are you attempting to argue against? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong thread?

I don't think so.
Ascribing any kind of purpose to the universe smacks of theology.
And contrary to popular opinion, science isn't end-directed, either, since (by definition) we don't know what we don't know yet: we cannot decide what the laws of nature are going to be, we can only discover what they are.

If we consider Artificial Intelligence as an engineering project, then maybe we can talk about the purpose of that project.
But humans are only one species on the planet, and it is pretty arrogant to equate the purpose of all life with the designs of a single instantiation of it.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:01 pm

_exit wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
_exit wrote:
2.) That line describes teleonomy, which many persons tend to be unaware of.
Yeah, but its rubbish since evolution isn't end-directed.
What are you attempting to argue against? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong thread?
Did you get your butt burned?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:50 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
_exit wrote: What are you attempting to argue against? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong thread?

I don't think so.
Ascribing any kind of purpose to the universe smacks of theology.

...
...

You really ought to take a look at the introductory sentence, from the OP:

Reminder: One ought not to confuse the teleological argument (purpose in the realm of subjectivity/deities/religion), with teleonomy (purpose in the realm of objectivity/science); this thread is concerned with purpose in the realm of science.
ElectricMonk wrote: But humans are only one species on the planet, and it is pretty arrogant to equate the purpose of all life with the designs of a single instantiation of it.
1.) The word life may be used to describe human life.

1.b) Google definition of life:"the existence of an individual human being or animal."

2.) I had also long specified that I was referring to human life in my hypothesis. (See OP)
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:32 am

I have not run into the concept of teleonomy until this thread. Interesting........its PURELY DEFINITIONAL. A phrase easy to say, but harder to implement. Ahem: define a word as you will ..... and then stick to that definition. No real "truth" involved in such a workout....just an example of discipline. Truth may be more quickly devined "if" one examines the same subject with key terms redefined. REDEFINED. That means you read the new/other definition and go thru the issues again. Its rare for individuals to actually do that. What too often happens is the new definition is read and agreed to, then everyone continues with their own old/preferred definitions. ................. so..... hooman.

So.....what is the definition of teleonomy? MY READ of the link is bifurcated. I get that it is mainly just a collective all any notion that is NOT TELEOLOGICAL. And the other is that it means that certain processes are "end directed" or are taking place by some design or motive to reach a given consequence? It is simply IGNORANT to claim/think/support/argue that evolution is end goal directed. its not. Evolution is the CONSEQUENCE of adaptation to the environment. No "choices" are made. Just random gene variation + time. Now....hoomans have the ability to set a goal and to direct evolution towards it. But such was not the case as in the link with turtles coming onto land to lay eggs.

So exit: NAME the purpose in the realm of science. I'll wait.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I have not run into the concept of teleonomy until this thread. Interesting........its PURELY DEFINITIONAL. A phrase easy to say, but harder to implement. Ahem: define a word as you will ..... and then stick to that definition. No real "truth" involved in such a workout....just an example of discipline. Truth may be more quickly devined "if" one examines the same subject with key terms redefined. REDEFINED. That means you read the new/other definition and go thru the issues again. Its rare for individuals to actually do that. What too often happens is the new definition is read and agreed to, then everyone continues with their own old/preferred definitions. ................. so..... hooman.

So.....what is the definition of teleonomy? MY READ of the link is bifurcated. I get that it is mainly just a collective all any notion that is NOT TELEOLOGICAL. And the other is that it means that certain processes are "end directed" or are taking place by some design or motive to reach a given consequence? It is simply IGNORANT to claim/think/support/argue that evolution is end goal directed. its not. Evolution is the CONSEQUENCE of adaptation to the environment. No "choices" are made. Just random gene variation + time. Now....hoomans have the ability to set a goal and to direct evolution towards it. But such was not the case as in the link with turtles coming onto land to lay eggs.

So exit: NAME the purpose in the realm of science. I'll wait.
1.) Whose arguments are you attempting to negate?

2.) What do you feel is the significance of the words you have capitalized?

3.) For purpose in the realm of science, see the hypothesis cited in the OP.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:03 am

Bacteria and plants are life, too

Exit, what is your actual argument here?
Because the"Why" part of the article is certainly not making a coherent argument: it just postulates that there is a purpose.

But let's, for the sake of argument, say that the purpose of humans is to create AGI.
What then is the purpose of AGI ?

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:53 am

_exit wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
So exit: NAME the purpose in the realm of science. I'll wait.
1.) Whose arguments are you attempting to negate?
I'll simply second what EM posted as I do not see ANY argument: just a postulate, the assumption of some position that is more than debatable as is mostly debunked.
_exit wrote: 2.) What do you feel is the significance of the words you have capitalized?
It puts in punctuation what my tone of voice cannot do.
_exit wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
So exit: NAME the purpose in the realm of science. I'll wait.
3.) For purpose in the realm of science, see the hypothesis cited in the OP.
A very limited cognition of human potential. Why not say the purpose of life is to make fire? Or the transistor?? What about discoveries/challenges that will come after AGI? You know like managing cold fusion, or nanobots, or the creation of a new humanoid species thru genetic engineering? It looks to me you have just chosen what is of momentary interest to yourself.

I'll say again what you and the link fail to recognize: EVOLUTION IS NOT GOAL DIRECTED. Listen to the words now, and remember them later. (sic==>thats a joke). Why isn't the PURPOSE of life to make jokes?.....etc?????
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Pyrrho » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:12 am

What is the purpose of spam?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:43 am

Pyrrho wrote:What is the purpose of spam?
To fill basketballs?

Or is that something else? :?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gord » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:34 pm

I'd just like to point out that teleonomy refers to the quality of apparent purposefulness of structure or function in living organisms due to evolutionary adaptation. The lede to the wikipedia article seems to be flawed -- although it appears to have originally been based on the Merriam-Webster definition I've sited, it's been modified, including by the replacement of the term "evolutionary adaptation" with the odd and grammatically incorrect phrase "the exercise, augmentation, and, improvement of reasoning". These two terms are not interchangeable.

Teleonomy is about things that appear to have an end-goal. That doesn't mean they necessarily do have them.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:01 pm

Does Wiki keep trace of edits?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Does Wiki keep trace of edits?
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: A very limited cognition of human potential. Why not say the purpose of life is to make fire? Or the transistor???
An explanation is given in the hypothesis, as long cited in the OP. (Hint: Entropy)

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:10 pm

Gord wrote:I'd just like to point out that teleonomy refers to the quality of apparent purposefulness of structure or function in living organisms due to evolutionary adaptation. The lede to the wikipedia article seems to be flawed -- although it appears to have originally been based on the Merriam-Webster definition I've sited, it's been modified, including by the replacement of the term "evolutionary adaptation" with the odd and grammatically incorrect phrase "the exercise, augmentation, and, improvement of reasoning". These two terms are not interchangeable.

Teleonomy is about things that appear to have an end-goal. That doesn't mean they necessarily do have them.
1.) What is the significance of your last sentence above, in relation to the hypothesis cited in the OP?

2.) As another has pointed out, you can quickly determine whether the article has been "modified" as you supposedly detected, by observing the edit history.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:34 pm

The hypothesis is not supported by the arguments.

Also, the arguments are flawed, as higher intelligence doesn't necessarily mean faster increase in entropy.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:42 pm

_exit wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: A very limited cognition of human potential. Why not say the purpose of life is to make fire? Or the transistor???
An explanation is given in the hypothesis, as long cited in the OP. (Hint: Entropy)
Gibberish. Entropy like all the other laws/constants in the Universe has NO purpose. and even if we accept that it does have a purpose, there is no explanation at all as to why it would be to create AGI rather than anything else hoomans have and will create.

IOW==>gibberish.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:14 pm

I think exit talks about how technology can affect how fast entropy is increased: we could conceivably drain the hydrogen out of the sun, thereby accelerating its decay.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:07 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I think exit talks about how technology can affect how fast entropy is increased: we could conceivably drain the hydrogen out of the sun, thereby accelerating its decay.
Sounds like a brilliant plan. :roll:
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:28 pm

If entropy had a goal, it would be the heat death of the universe.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:53 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:If entropy had a goal, it would be the heat death of the universe.
And claims that it has a purpose are as dumb as the actuality.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:04 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:If entropy had a goal, it would be the heat death of the universe.
And claims that it has a purpose are as dumb as the actuality.
Whose arguments you are attempting to negate?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:10 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
_exit wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: A very limited cognition of human potential. Why not say the purpose of life is to make fire? Or the transistor???
An explanation is given in the hypothesis, as long cited in the OP. (Hint: Entropy)
Gibberish. Entropy like all the other laws/constants in the Universe has NO purpose. and even if we accept that it does have a purpose, there is no explanation at all as to why it would be to create AGI rather than anything else hoomans have and will create.

IOW==>gibberish.
Yes, your response is certainly gibberish.

I detect that you ought to read Wikipedia/Teleonomy.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:14 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:If entropy had a goal, it would be the heat death of the universe.
Perhaps. (I cite the probable death of the universe in my hypothesis).

Regardless of the universe's probable end, things may still maintain purposes.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:25 am

ElectricMonk wrote:The hypothesis is not supported by the arguments.

Also, the arguments are flawed, as higher intelligence doesn't necessarily mean faster increase in entropy.

1.) Can you demonstrate why you feel the hypothesis fails to be supported by the data? (You need to get into the habit of providing evidence for your claims, instead of expressing non-evidenced blather.)

2.) As far as evidence goes, more cognitive work (i.e. AGI) shall induce steeper entropy costs.

Source: See the "Consciousness, unconsciousness and entropy" section in my hypothesis. (In particular, see the relevant work by Mateos et al)

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:34 am

_exit wrote: I detect that you ought to read Wikipedia/Teleonomy.
I did, which allows me to CONCLUDE: you don't know what the word/concept "apparent" means.

Buy a dictionary..... look it up. ha, ha.......since I have not looked it up myself, let me check that:

apparent: Appearing as such but not necessarily so. //// Do you see the issue that so far you have ignored and expressly negated?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:21 am

_exit wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:The hypothesis is not supported by the arguments.

Also, the arguments are flawed, as higher intelligence doesn't necessarily mean faster increase in entropy.

1.) Can you demonstrate why you feel the hypothesis fails to be supported by the data? (You need to get into the habit of providing evidence for your claims, instead of expressing non-evidenced blather.)

2.) As far as evidence goes, more cognitive work (i.e. AGI) shall induce steeper entropy costs.

Source: See the "Consciousness, unconsciousness and entropy" section in my hypothesis. (In particular, see the relevant work by Mateos et al)
Actually, pure logic shows that the arguments, even if valid, do not support the hypothesis to any significant degree: there is just no connection.

But, as I said, let's pretend there was.
Concerning 2): for decades, energy consumption in high-tech countries has been stagnant or even declining, despite massive increase in the number of electronics we use: that is because machines have become so much more efficient. The efficiency rate of energy production is also increasing while the energy loss through transmission is decreasing.
A consciousness instantiated in a computer system would use up even less energy than in a biological one.
The biggest energy drain for a civilization might be inter-solar travel with rockets - but if we used space elevators instead, energy costs would drop to next to nothing. Inter-stellar travel could conceivably require huge amounts of energy, but only initially if we just beamed consciousness via laser to previously built receivers.
In short, the idea of grading civilization by the amount of energy it harvests/consumes is throughly antiquated: higher intelligence means you can get way more out of way less.

More generally: how, in your words, does life increase entropy faster than pure physics would?
Light from a lone sun sent into infinite vacuum is nearly as low in entropy as you can get. But by catching it in systems capable of photosynthesis, new ways to increase the entropy are accessed that pure physics couldn't even reach (a photon can't lose it energy unless it hits something - or if it can decay, which isn't certain).
So as long as life/technology manages to increase entropy in new ways, it can presumably stay ahead of the heat-death or at least not get there faster than the universe would without it.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:12 am

ElectricMonk wrote: But by catching it in systems capable of photosynthesis, new ways to increase the entropy are accessed that pure physics couldn't even reach (a photon can't lose it energy unless it hits something - or if it can decay, which isn't certain).
EM: For real....for my education/confirmation: for some reason, I'm always a bit confused about entropy (along with acidity levels measured by "PH")...wouldn't photosynthesis DECREASE EMPATHY?....or am I still not able to understand how double negatives work?

EDIT: hah, hah.....I said empathy. Well.......I'll let it stand.
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ElectricMonk
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:20 am

According to thermodynamics, you can never decrease entropy in a closed system. So while photosynthesis creates order by making plant matter, in also increases entropy via heat loss during the conversion.
But is also creates a a chemical bond that can lead to systems of orders of complexity that purely physical systems will never reach.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:26 am

EM===not sure, but my gut says that is a dodge? anywhere that photosynthesis takes place is an open system....so...you are being non-responsive.....unless you are operating at a level of empathy I don't grok.
Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
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