"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:46 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:In spite of Nikki's statements, I did not come to this business of what lies behind rape with a pre-conception. I was surprised when I first saw the claim that it was all about power and control, but I had no reason then to disbelieve it. My skepticism arose over time as I saw other things that seemed to cast doubt. The final straw was reading the account by the prison warden on how crappy the "research" in prisons was. That is why I believe those people who falsely call themselves 'feminist scientists' are not scientists at all.
Data that casts doubt on a conclusion does not necessarily disprove it. You're looking at the issue in terms of either-or. "Well, X casts doubt on Conclusion Y, so Conclusion Y has now been disproven, and Conclusion Z must be correct." Even if Conclusion Y were thoroughly discredited, that does not provide evidence to support Conclusion Z.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by gorgeous » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:37 pm

tell that to dress wearing men like Caitlyn and others...they say they are women..
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:47 pm

gorgeous wrote:tell that to dress wearing men like Caitlyn and others...they say they are women..
Well, THERE is a whole new disgusting dimension to G. I wonder how many ticks on list you might fulfill?

Say G: where do you think america excells and where is it falling down?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by gorgeous » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:52 pm

why disgusting? truth
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Nikki

In science, we deal with hypotheses. I have only two hypotheses for why men commit rape. It is power and control or the sex drive. Sure, there will be occasional overlap, but mostly it will be one or the other. If you have a third hypothesis to offer, go ahead.

The scientific approach is to use your hypothesis to make a testable prediction. I did this.
If rape is due to power and control, then most victims will be those women who are vulnerable. ie. older or handicapped.
It rape is due to the sex drive, then most victims will be those women who most stimulate the sex desire. ie. Younger women, less than 35 years.

The second prediction was correct.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:23 pm

gorgeous wrote:why disgusting? truth
because that truth is of the type that you create for yourself.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:25 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki

In science, we deal with hypotheses. I have only two hypotheses for why men commit rape. It is power and control or the sex drive. Sure, there will be occasional overlap, but mostly it will be one or the other.
Check me: that is a change to your OP.....right? And why the insistence on either/or thinking?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:34 pm

Bobbo

I am not insisting on either//or.
There are two hypotheses that I am aware of. If there is a third, or a fourth, bring it on.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:38 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:... If rape is due to power and control, then most victims will be those women who are vulnerable. ie. older or handicapped. ...
ie. - subordinate, plysically weaker, out and about, younger (less experienced at self protection, dating) ...

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:43 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

I am not insisting on either//or.
There are two hypotheses that I am aware of. If there is a third, or a fourth, bring it on.
Ha, ha......you don't even understand your own posts. What else does this mean: "Sure, there will be occasional overlap, but mostly it will be one or the other."

And you didn't even try to {!#%@} up your answer to the main question.

for grins: all causes of anything are definitional. Rape can be caused by any motive you name....because motives get transformed as they warp into action. Yeah I know.........totally inscrutable.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:42 pm

Bobbo

Motive are often hard to nail down, but they are real. And no. Rape cannot be caused by any motive you can name. Each case has a definite motive. My view is that in most cases the dominant motive is sex drive. I believe the data supports that view. No one on this thread has provided any credible data to deny my view.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:53 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo
....My view is that in most cases the dominant motive is sex drive. I believe the data supports that view. No one on this thread has provided any credible data to deny my view.
What was the "data" you provided to support your view? From memory....its only been a chart showing most of the female rape victims were young? That doesn't go to motive at all.

What YOU have not even tried to address is that sex drive is a NECESSARY BUT NOT SUFFICIENT cause of rape. In the field of causation, I did not think that term of art needed to be expounded on.

C'mon Lance: what does necessary but not sufficient mean?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:32 am

Actually Bobbo, 'necessary but not sufficient' is possibly not too far off the mark.

The other factor to make it sufficient is being a grade A arsehole. No half way decent human will use rape to get sexual gratification. But the world, as you know, is full of people who are far from decent.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 am

What "necessary but not sufficient" MEANS is that sex is not "the cause" of rape. Basic terminology. too nuanced?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:54 am

Except that the sex drive IS the cause of rape. There are plenty of situations where people commit atrocities against other people to exercise power and control. It does not require sex. But a rapist is not doing those other things. His focus is purely on sex. Duh!!!

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:22 am

So Lance.....given you have flipped flopped on both sides now, what is your tie breaker? Is sex the cause of rape or is it only a necessary but not sufficient cause of rape?

Why can't you keep a simple (new) idea in mind?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:01 am

Strange turn this topic has taken...

It seems to me (if anyone cares at all how things seem to me) that the idea of sex drive being the root cause of rape is unlikely. At most I'll consider that if it a sex drive weren't present in humans rape probably wouldn't be a thing, but that's because - boiled down to its dispassionate core - the same sort of mechanical processes are involved, not because the motivations are similar - and no evolved sex drive would mean that sexual rape wouldn't exist either.

The thinking in this thread has gone a bit too narrow-focused. It should be clear to anyone who's taken a step back and had a think about it that the motivation for rape is more complex than this one thing or that one thing.
Like any human behaviour it's a complex interplay of multiple factors, and sex drive is only a possible (albeit likely) one of them. Alcohol, drugs, opportunity, misread signals, fog of youth (who in their youth hasn't done something they've looked back on in adulthood and thought 'wtf was I thinking'?), peer pressure, psychological disorder, misdirected rage, etc etc, as well as the aforementioned need to dominate can potentially all play a part to some degree.

I've always found the argument that rape was fundamentally 'the need to dominate' to be lacking. Life just isn't that simple.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:31 am

io

By far the most common form of rape is date rape. That is 100% sex drive.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:41 am

Lance: you really are stuck on.........................stupid....................your initial thought upon posting here. That limitation in your potential to grow is really glaring.

Why so resistant to anything but your own ideas? You don't think any Prom Queen hasn't been raped to bring her down a notch?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:50 am

It may no longer be the case - but I recall dates as me (male) driving and paying - and I know that some might think that earns benefits, but at a minimum the driving part implies control.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:04 pm

gorgeous wrote:tell that to dress wearing men like Caitlyn and others...they say they are women..
Apparently, you are ignorant of the difference between 'transvestite' and 'transsexual.' For the nth time, buy a dictionary.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:14 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:In science, we deal with hypotheses. I have only two hypotheses for why men commit rape. It is power and control or the sex drive. Sure, there will be occasional overlap, but mostly it will be one or the other. If you have a third hypothesis to offer, go ahead.
You see only two possible hypotheses. That doesn't mean there are only two.
Lance Kennedy wrote:The scientific approach is to use your hypothesis to make a testable prediction. I did this.
If rape is due to power and control, then most victims will be those women who are vulnerable. ie. older or handicapped.
It rape is due to the sex drive, then most victims will be those women who most stimulate the sex desire. ie. Younger women, less than 35 years.

The second prediction was correct.
The problem is your 'tests' are based on your biases.

1. Why do you believe that the conclusions in your two if-then statements are valid? You assume that rapists are uninterested in power and control over younger women, and your assumption is based on your bias, not on factual evidence.

2. What makes you define 'vulnerable' as solely a physical quality? The fact that men possess more upper body strength than women should lead you to the conclusion that all women are physically vulnerable. What you miss is that young women and girls are also emotionally vulnerable and inexperienced, and that most rape victims are assaulted by someone they know.

Nuance, Lance. Your arguments tend to lack it.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:16 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

Motive are often hard to nail down, but they are real. And no. Rape cannot be caused by any motive you can name. Each case has a definite motive. My view is that in most cases the dominant motive is sex drive. I believe the data supports that view. No one on this thread has provided any credible data to deny my view.
You haven't provided any credible data to support your view. Instead, you've examined the demographics of rape victims and made assumption after assumption.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:25 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:io

By far the most common form of rape is date rape. That is 100% sex drive.
Yeah? How about these?

• One in every seven victims of sexual assault is under the age of six.
• One in four victims of sexual assault under the age of twelve is a boy.
• Among developmentally disabled adults, up to 83% of females and 32% of males are victims of sexual violence.
• In a study of elderly female sexual abuse victims, 81% of abuse was perpetrated by the victim’s primary caregiver. 78% was perpetrated by family members, of whom 39% were sons.

Your assumption completely ignores all data except that which you feels supports it.

* data from the DoJ, the FBI, and HHS
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:33 pm

Nikki

I am sorry, but your data stinks.
All those cases are minorities. The majority of rapes are young women. The fact that there are a small number of cases that are not young women does not obviate my case.

There will, of course, be a small number of rapists who have different motives, or are driven by the sex motive but warped by other concerns. For example, there are rapists who have deluded themselves into believing that the woman they are raping really wants to have sex and the rapist is doing her a favour. But occasional delusions does not change what the majority are up to. The majority of rapists attack women younger than 35, but old enough to menstruate.

Using minority examples to deny the rule is lousy illogic.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: Using minority examples to deny the rule is lousy illogic.
Is that a double negative? Could be read either way.....but still.

Speaking of logic: have you figured out why/how "necessary but not sufficient" "obviates" your notion that rape is mostly about sex, or are you completely comfortable not dealing with the conflict/nuance?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:28 pm

Bobbo

"Mostly about" means just that. It does not mean totally about. All people are different, which means that what people do has a range of motives. Rape is no different. The sex drive is the main motive underlying that, but humans have this habit of complicating things....

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:30 pm

lance: so what does necessary but not sufficient mean?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:38 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki

I am sorry, but your data stinks.
All those cases are minorities. The majority of rapes are young women. The fact that there are a small number of cases that are not young women does not obviate my case.
Why the massive Denial that young women are vulnerable?

Men are generally stronger, and can use force effectively. Boys' play uses force more than girls' play, so boys are more experienced with using force.

Other vulnerabilities I described above.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:43 pm

Oleg

It is relative vulnerability.
I could argue that every man, woman, and child on planet Earth is vulnerable and I would be right. But young women are LESS vulnerable than the elderly or the handicapped. So if rape was about power and control, we would expect more rapes of those who are more vulnerable. But the reverse is true.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:51 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:But young women are LESS vulnerable than the elderly or the handicapped.
You are conflating the vulnerability of physical capability with the vulnerability of exposing one to the risk.

What does necessary but not sufficient mean Lance?

You are aware that conflation is a SIN, ...........so is understanding what necessary but not sufficient means, and then ignoring it. You are a very sinful person Lance.

Go to church..............and take the dictionary with you.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:49 am

I would never deny being a sinner, but sadly I am not very good at it. My sins are trivial. I do not have any really memorable and exciting ones to remember. (sob).

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:11 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:All those cases are minorities.
Minorities? WTF does their ethnicity have to do with anything? Oh...wait. You meant 'minors.' Elderly women and developmentally disabled adults are not minors.
Lance Kennedy wrote:The majority of rapes are young women. The fact that there are a small number of cases that are not young women does not obviate my case.
It's not 'a small number of cases.' You're deliberately ignoring data.
12.3% female rape victims and 27.8% of male rape victims were first raped when they were age 10 or younger.
These percentages are not 'a small number of cases.'
29.9% of female rape victims were first raped between the ages of 11-17.
Average age of menarche in the US is 14, so half these girls were still children. Again, not 'a small number of cases.'
31% of rape victims are over the age of 35.
Again, not 'a small number of cases.'
54% of rape victims are between the ages of 18 and 34.
That's just barely the majority of victims. Your conclusion ignores 46% of victims, again, not 'a small number of cases.'

At this point, you're in denial, Lance. The statistics you claim support your conclusion clearly don't. Obviously, sexual desire is an element of rape, since a man cannot rape unless he's sexually stimulated. But if it were overwhelmingly the sole motive, there would be a lot more rape. Your conclusion speaks to men being unable to control their actions while sexually stimulated, and that's blatantly false. The rapist doesn't care that his actions cause physical and emotional damage, which speaks to a level of misogyny that denies women are people entitled to autonomy. Rape is violence, not sex. Sex is merely the weapon.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:47 pm

The sex drive kicks in for a non pedophile rapist who looks at any girl over the age of, say, 13. The big majority of rape victims are between say 14 and 34 (not 18 and 34). That is the age range where women look sexiest, and also the age range where they are least vulnerable in terms of ability to resist physically. It is also about one quarter of a womans total life span. That age group is seriously over represented in rape statistics.

The argument that some people outside that range are also raped is a very, very weak one. That is like Xoupers argument on guns that a minority of murder victims are stabbed, so guns are OK. Most rapes are of the sexiest women, and most rapes are driven by the sex drive. To suggest that most are driven by the desire for power and control is quite ludicrous.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:08 pm

Lance: what does necessary but not sufficient mean?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:58 pm

Bobbo

I have already answered that question. You did not like the answer. Tough!!

I suspect you push these irrelevancies because they fit your personal agenda, and you have a specific answer in mind. Again, tough. It is not my role to hand you lines you can jump on.

You are a dog worrying a bone. Let it go.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:29 pm

Lance: a little help. I've been following this thread, and missed your response. I assume you used words that I did not recognize as addressing the issue? Can you copy and paste to get us on the same page? Thanks.

.........................................

So I just did a word search on (sufficient) and that words appears once in Your Posts where you agree necessary but not sufficient is close to the mark. So...I took that as your agreement that SEX DRIVE is necessary but not sufficient causation..............but you have consistently posted in ignorance/negation of the concept.

Explain yourself. NO DODGES. I know that is TOUGH, but I'd like to see you do it once.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:40 pm

Bobbo

As I said before, rape is like other human behaviours - influenced by many factors. Sex drive is normally the basic motive, but the way it is expressed varies according to other aspects of our behaviour. For example, my sex drive as a teenager mostly consisted of me looking at beautiful gals and drooling. Others kick into Casanova mode and set out to seduce. Rapists, of course, are the arseholes, and their response to their sex drive is horrible.

So the sex drive is necessary to cause a person to commit rape, but not sufficient, since the rapist must also have other qualities that make him do the wrong thing.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:41 pm

Correct. So is sex drive "the cause" of rape?///////// ............and you still haven't defined what "necessary but not sufficient" means in the field of causation. Must have missed that class?

The answer Lance fails to acknowledge is:
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Real Name: bobbo the contrarian existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Lance Kennedy
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:45 pm

In other words, Bobbo, you want to argue semantics. If you have a different definition for the word 'necessary' or the word 'cause' you can argue anything you like. Not very useful.