"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:59 am

You almost have me convinced until you say "may.".....Making the fallacy of false equivalency and voiding your allegation of Strawman. Why don't you adopt the standard causation language of "necessary but not sufficient"? THEN you would use terms of art and not introduce the vagaries you think everyone else should give you a pass on.

This is probably worthless, but consider a mighty dam (Societal Expectations) backing up a huge amount of water (the sex drive) but you look across the land and everything is just as it should be (Peace and Nobility, tranquility between the sexes). Then at one location that has not been inspected for years due to Trumps withdrawal of regulations and the funding for inspectors, and a gopher has dug a hole into the bank of the dam. Then there is a heavy rain. The dam fails (a Violent Date Rape) causing more deaths than all the Nuclear Energy deaths that have ever been.

Can you give us your analysis as to what caused the flood? Note: this is a trick question. Right out in the open..... but still a trick.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:01 am

Yes, definitely worthless.

I don't really know why I reply to you, Bobbo. So many of your posts are just too silly.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:18 am

You're no fun Lance. Too Rigid.

Sayeth the Lanced: "I have only two hypotheses for why men commit rape. It is power and control or the sex drive. Sure, there will be occasional overlap, but mostly it will be one or the other."

That wasn't the trick.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:53 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki

I hate to say it, but this is straw man alert number two.

Please do not suggest I have said things I did not. Sheesh!!
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I quoted your posts, Lance, so I'm not suggesting you've said things that you didn't; I'm actually providing evidence that you did say those things.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I said that rape is about sex. But I also said it was multifactorial.

Any statement by yourselves to the effect that I said it was solely about sex is a straw man. Now please stop it.
Please stop gaslighting. These are your posts, Lance.
If rape is due to power and control, then most victims will be those women who are vulnerable. ie. older or handicapped.
It rape is due to the sex drive, then most victims will be those women who most stimulate the sex desire. ie. Younger women, less than 35 years.

Except that the sex drive IS the cause of rape.

By far the most common form of rape is date rape. That is 100% sex drive.

But date rape is the most clearly due to the sex drive and not to any other motive.

Date rape is 100% due to the sex drive and only an idiot claims it is due to the desire for power and control.

Sex drive is normally the basic motive
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:45 pm

Yes, date rape is almost all sex drive.
Other forms of rape are sex drive, but often influenced by other factors.
Any suggestion that I said only sex drive for all rape is straw man.

To Bobbo
The power and control thing is not my hypothesis. But it is a hypothesis which I felt needed examination. I checked it the best way I could and it was falsified by my test.

If rape were due to something other than sex drive, it would not be rape. There are numerous other ways of expressing anger, violence, sadism etc. In fact, these are expressed on people and animals by nasty people all the damn time. But if sex is the action, then it comes from sex drive. Modified by those other things quite often, sure. But still sex drive.

It is quite annoying to be misrepresented.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:07 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: But if sex is the action, then it comes from sex drive.
Except when sex is the tool, and something else, such as anger, a desire to humiliate, dominance assertion, etc are the motivators.

There is a great deal of research into rape being done. Perhaps you might look some up.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:20 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Yes, date rape is almost all sex drive.
Other forms of rape are sex drive, but often influenced by other factors.
Any suggestion that I said only sex drive for all rape is straw man.
This is not a straw man:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Except that the sex drive IS the cause of rape.
Cause: A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition.
Police are investigating the possibility of mechanical failure as the cause of the accident.
Cardiovascular disease is the leading cause of morbidity and mortality in the elderly.
Instead, it pointed to soil erosion as being the cause of sea level rise.
Your statement claims that sex drive IS the cause of rape (emphasis yours).
Lance Kennedy wrote:It is quite annoying to be misrepresented.
It is quite annoying to be gaslighted.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:02 pm

The sex drive is the cause of rape. There are other modifiers very often, but they are not the cause. If there was no sex drive, the person responsible would not even be capable of rape. Are you guys being deliberately obtuse?

If the cause was a tendency to violence, then the form of the crime would be violence, like beating someone up. Only the sex drive is what leads to an act of sex.

Oleg

I have already looked up the research, in some depth. It shows a range of modifiers to rape behaviour, but no alternate cause. If a guy is sexually aroused by violence to women, and some are, and then goes on to commit rape, the cause of the rape is his sexual arousal, modified by the violence.

The basic need for rape is the male erection. Guess what causes that? Clue. It is not power and control.

It is annoying to see people who claim to be skeptics making idiotic claims.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:45 am

Lance: do you have a link to any expert saying rape is caused by the sex drive?

What do you call it when you come up with NADA?

Edit for our Kiwis: Nada: a humorous way to express "nothing"...aka: zip, zero, empty. Add that to your data set. ////// You actually can't see yourself flip flopping all over the place? worse: saying the words of a more nuanced position, but ALWAYS reverting to the first thing you post?????

Just Look.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:52 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Yes, date rape is almost all sex drive.
Other forms of rape are sex drive, but often influenced by other factors.
Any suggestion that I said only sex drive for all rape is straw man.

To Bobbo
The power and control thing is not my hypothesis. But it is a hypothesis which I felt needed examination. I checked it the best way I could and it was falsified by my test.

If rape were due to something other than sex drive, it would not be rape. There are numerous other ways of expressing anger, violence, sadism etc. In fact, these are expressed on people and animals by nasty people all the damn time. But if sex is the action, then it comes from sex drive. Modified by those other things quite often, sure. But still sex drive.

It is quite annoying to be misrepresented.
the construct of this post is quite revealing. Just saying.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:00 am

Saying rape is not about sex is like saying eating is not about appetite. Or as Trump puts it, mass shootings are not about guns. "Rape not about sex" is an absurdity.

Certainly there are complications. After all, we are talking of human behaviour, and rapists are human, even if seriously unpleasant humans. But the basic reason ANYONE has sex is because they feel the sex drive. Rape is just having sex without the consent of the woman. Even if that sex drive has weird complications, like being aggravated by violence, or stimulated by anger, or by a fetish, or whatever other sickness the rapist has, ultimately it is still about sex.

So, Bobbo, when you say rape is not caused by the sex drive, take a long hard look at what you are saying, because it is bull-{!#%@}.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:11 am

Where is your link?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: So, Bobbo, when you say rape is not caused by the sex drive, take a long hard look at what you are saying, because it is bull-{!#%@}.
Ive said ad naseum to the point of your complaint that sex drive is "necessary but not sufficient" for rape.

Now.....would you call your characterization above misquoting or gas lighting?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:20 am

Bobbo

I do not trust you on the 'necessary but not sufficient' statement. You have a habit of playing word games that are so obscure I have no idea what the frack you are writing about.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:30 am

Wheres your link?

I don't know what trust has to do with YOU not looking a word/concept up in the dictionary. ===> Try it. And assuming you will think if not say you know all about what necessary but not sufficient means, whats the issue except you not incorporating the concept into your discourse?

My habit of playing word games. //// Thank you. (((Edit: Emulate it. It necessarily makes your thinking more flexible. something that you would benefit from.))))
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:40 am

No.

Word games of the kind you play create confusion, not clarity.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:10 am

So, do the good kind.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:36 am

Again, no.


My temperament is directed towards being plain and straightforward. My aim is to communicate well, although I know that none of us do that perfectly.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:45 am

Never change Lance. You are the best you could possibly be. Ignore all detractors.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:51 am

Yes I know.
If I was not so modest, I would be perfect.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:24 am

Lance: this thread has been primarily engaged in by you, me, Oleg, and Nikki. What should anyone think when 3 people who have variously agreed and disagreed with you on various issues have all come to a position that disagrees with you?

Heh, heh........Now, I could say the same thing about a thread on Doing away with Reservations....so, am I looking at, trying as honestly as I can on a clean slate, the validity of what they are saying?

Oh Heck: you are right. Why should we think less than perfection of ourselves?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:22 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The sex drive is the cause of rape. There are other modifiers very often, but they are not the cause. If there was no sex drive, the person responsible would not even be capable of rape. Are you guys being deliberately obtuse?
Let's try this again:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Following is the most comprehensive study on rape motivation to date (Barbaree and Marshall), which presents a number of models of rape motivation based on empirical studies measuring sexual arousal in response to both consenting and violent sexual scenarios in both rapists and non-rapists.
——————————
Model #1 - Ability to Suppress Arousal (Response Control)
Studies found that rapists were unable to suppress sexual arousal in response to rape stimuli. (The motive is not simply sexual desire; it's sexual desire based on violence that motivates them to rape.)

Model #2 - Response Compatibility (Response Control)
Studies found that rapists are able to respond with both hostile aggression and sexual arousal simultaneously, while non-rapists lack this ability. However, non-rapists provoked to anger toward women were also able to respond with both aggression and arousal simultaneously. (Again, the motive is not simply sexual desire; it's the ability to commit violent actions while sexually aroused.)

Model #3 - Sexual Preference: Cues of Force and Violence as Excitatory (Stimulus Control)
Studies found that rapists are equally aroused by violent sexual stimuli as they are by depictions of consenting sex. Non-rapists were considerably less aroused by rape stimuli. (And again, normal sexual desire is not the motive; rapists are aroused by violence against women.)

Model #4 - Inhibition: Cues of Force and Violence as Inhibitory (Stimulus Control)
Studies found that non-rapists respond to rape stimuli with both empathy and inhibited arousal, while rapists respond without empathy and with increased arousal. (Once again, the rapist responds to violence + sex.)

Model #5 - Disinhibition of Arousal to Rape Stimuli
"Disinhibition" is the condition in which a subject's ability to inhibit sexual arousal is lost following a disruptive event. Six disruptive events are examined. (In all these subcategories, the conclusion is that every man possesses the ability to commit violence while sexually aroused, given a concurrent or intervening event.)
• Permissive Instructions - Studies found that when subjects were told that sexual arousal to rape stimuli was "normal," their ability to distinguish between consenting and non-consenting clues was reduced.
• Alcohol Intoxication - Studies found that when subjects believed they had imbibed alcohol, they showed greater arousal to rape stimuli.
• Anger Toward a Female - Studies found that when subjects were provoked to anger by the actions of a woman, they completely lost the ability to distinguish between consenting and non-consenting clues.
• Victim Blame - Studies found that subjects exposed to a portrayal of rape in which the female actor claimed the experience sexually aroused her became more aroused to rape stimuli.
• Excusing the Rapist's Behavior - Studies found that non-rapists habitually excuse the actions of the rapist if he has imbibed alcohol or is in a long-term relationship with his victim.
• Exposure to Pornography - Studies found that subjects exposed to pornographic rape stimuli showed reduced discrimination between consenting and non-consenting clues.
Note: Researchers have concluded that Model #5 is most applicable to acquaintance and date rape, since both are perpetrated by men who lack the other psychological characteristics of rapists, but who fail to respond appropriately to indications of non-consent.

Model #6 - Emotional State Augmentation
Studies found that rapists' ability to inhibit sexual arousal was dependent upon their emotional feelings toward a particular woman and/or women in general. Positive feelings of love and affection inhibited arousal to rape stimuli, while negative feelings of hate and hostility increased arousal to rape stimuli. (And yet again, it's not simply sexual desire. The rapist's motivation is based in hate and hostility.)
——————————
From this comprehensive study, we can conclude the following:
1. The rapist becomes sexually aroused by violence against women. The non-rapist does not.
2. The rapist is able to commit aggressive violence while sexually aroused. The non-rapist is not.
3. The rapist lacks empathy for his victim. The non-rapist possesses empathy for women.
4. The rapist's emotional response toward a woman is an indicator of his ability to rape her.
5. Most disturbing, concurrent or intervening events can cause the non-rapist to respond like the rapist.

In all cases, it is not merely sexual desire that is the motivator. There is always a clear lack of empathy toward the victim, an ability to commit violence while sexually aroused, a negative emotional response to the victim as a human being, an abnormal response to concurrent or intervening events, an inability to distinguish between consenting and non-consenting clues, and a complete lack of emotion regulation. It's not simply the fact that the rapist is sexually aroused; it's why he's sexually aroused. And that consistently revolves around some level of misogyny...apathy at the least, hostility at the worst.
You scrolled right past it, didn't you? Back up and {!#%@} read it.
Lance Kennedy wrote:If the cause was a tendency to violence, then the form of the crime would be violence, like beating someone up. Only the sex drive is what leads to an act of sex.
Really? Then, explain the instances of rape that involve penetration with an inanimate object. Explain the rape of children. Explain the rape of the elderly and developmentally disabled.
Lance Kennedy wrote:I have already looked up the research, in some depth. It shows a range of modifiers to rape behaviour, but no alternate cause. If a guy is sexually aroused by violence to women, and some are, and then goes on to commit rape, the cause of the rape is his sexual arousal, modified by the violence.
Your research appears to have been quite selective, because that's NOT what most research shows. Your misguided opinion lacks nuance, as usual.

Let's add another piece to the puzzle...
• "...new findings demonstrate cognitive processing of sexualized female bodies as object-like, a crucial aspect of dehumanized percept devoid of agency and personhood. Sexual violence is a consequence of a dehumanized perception of female bodies that aggressors acquire through their exposure and interpretation of objectified body images." (Awasthi. Frontiers in Psychology. 2017; 8: 338.)

• "Faces and bodies provide a vast array of social cues that are relevant for perception and communication. Rapid assessment of identity, gender, age, intentions, and emotional state is made through faces as well as bodies. Scores of research findings have established that bodies (as well as faces) are perceived by separate brain mechanisms than those for inanimate objects. (Kanwisher and Yovel. Philosophical transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological sciences Royal Society. 2006 Dec 29; 361(1476):2109-28.; Peelen and Downing. Nature Reviews Neuroscience. 2007 Aug; 8(8):636-48.)

• "A focus on appearance rather than on personality diminished the degree of human nature attributed to females." (Heflick and Goldenberg. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology. 45 598–601. 10.1016/j.jesp.2009.02.008) "The recognition and attribution of human nature is key to social perception, allowing people to differentiate humans from objects." (Loughnan and Haslam. Psychological Science. 2007 Feb; 18(2):116-21.)

• "Through a series of experiments, the authors demonstrate that only objectified women were associated with less human concepts. The authors further show that sexually objectified women shift a man’s focus toward a female target, away from her personality and more onto her body, triggering a dehumanization process. The experiments also showed that sexualized women are implicitly associated with animals by both male and female perceivers." (Vaes, Paladino, and Puvia. European Journal of Social Psychology. 41 774–785. 10.1002/ejsp.824)

• "...the perception of sexualized women deploys cognitive mechanisms specific to object perception, while sexualized men are perceived as persons. Specifically, sexualized female bodies are perceived as objects." (Bernard, Gervais, Allen, Campomizzi, and Klein. Psychological Science. 2012 May 1; 23(5):469-71.; Bernard, Gervais, Allen, and Klein. Psychological Science. 2013 Jun; 24(6):1071-3.; Schmidt and Kistemaker. Cognition. 2015 Jan; 134():77-84.)

• "Sexual objectification has been related to decreased mind attribution." (Loughnan, Haslam, Murnane, Vaes, Reynolds, and Suitner. European Journal of Social Psychology. 40 709–717. 10.1002/ejsp.755.) "Sexual objectification has been related to diminished agency perception." (Cikara, Eberhardt, and Fiske. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience. 2011 Mar; 23(3):540-51.) "Sexualized women are perceived as less competent and less fully human." (Vaes, Paladino, and Puvia. (2011). European Journal of Social Psychology. 41 774–785. 10.1002/ejsp.824).

• "Examining the degree and nature of sexualization in girls’ clothing, the authors reported substantial presence of sexualization in girls’ clothing being marketed to and worn by young girls in the US, thereby contributing to the cultural objectification of pre-teen girls." (Goodin, Van Denburg, Murnen, and Smolak. Sex Roles. 65 1–12. 10.1007/s11199-011-9966-8.)

• "Another recent study examining the influence of sexual objectification on men and women’s rape perceptions, the authors show that sexual objectification increased victim blaming and diminished rapist blame in cases of stranger rape." (Bernard, Loughnan, Godart, Marchal, and Klein. Sex Roles 72 499–508. 10.1007/s11199-015-0482-0.)

• "In a sexually objectified context, the target’s clothing increased victim blaming and lower moral concern in an acquaintance rape circumstance, highlighting animalization and infra-humanization as a result of clothing and objectification." (Workman and Freeburg. Sex Roles 41 261–277. 10.1023/A:1018858313267.; Grubb and Harrower. Journal of Sexual Aggression. 15 63–81. 10.1080/13552600802641649.; Loughnan, Pina, Vasquez, and Puvia. (2013). Psychology of Women Quarterly. 37 455–461. 10.1177/0361684313485718.)
Sex drive is manifestly NOT the cause of rape. The cause is the fact that the rapist does not consider his victim to be human. Therefore, he feels justified in assuming autonomy over her because, in his mind, she is not a human being; she is an object or an animal. The rapist feels his victim has no right to object, and if she attempts to, he simply exerts power to control the situation. I would extrapolate and state that this cognitive dysfunction is most likely the cause of all violence against women, whether sexually-based or not. It doesn't matter what you do to an object, since it has no self-awareness, no emotions, and no capacity to feel pain.

Even worse, experiments proved that men are taught to rape. They're steeped in a society that consistently objectifies women, from advertising...
ImageImage
Image
...to politics...
Even when she dresses to impress, Merkel can’t win. In 2008, after attending the inauguration of Norway’s new national opera house in Oslo – dressed in a low-cut black dress with a distracting deep décolletage, designed by Munich-born Anna von Griesheim – Merkel made the front pages of papers in Germany and across Europe. Heading the hyena pack was the UK’s Daily Mail, which ran the pictures beneath the headline, ‘Merkel’s Weapons of Mass Distraction’, while online, the phrase ‘Deutschland boober alles’ was deployed. BBC
...to fashion...
Image
...to pornography. All of these things portray women as mere objects, valued solely for their appearance. And the implication is that men can own women, then do whatever they like to them. THIS is the cause of rape. Stop being deliberately obtuse.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:06 pm

Deep sigh.

Nikki

I thought you were smarter.
You ignore the fact that almost all of your references discusses sexual arousal. Duh !!

My point is that rape is the result of the sex drive. Your references discuss how rapists get sexually aroused. Guess what ? Sexual arousal is the sex drive in operation.

Seriously, Nikki.
Get away from the emotional logic and look at what those references actually say. They say that someone gets sexually aroused, and then carries out a sex act. That is the sex drive.

A sex act driven by the sex drive. Gee, how unlikely. Only unlikely if the person talking is an idiot.

I do not think you are an idiot, Nikki, but your current message sure looks like it. Why not think this through. A man gets sexually aroused, and does a sex act. Not the sex drive ???

Sure, different people get sexually aroused to different stimuli. Sure, the rapist is an arsehole. Sure, a normal decent man does not do this. But it is always the sex drive at work, even if warped.

Bloody hell. How can I make this simpler.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:43 pm

Nikki: thats for all that work, you really pulled it together. aka: Lance can only look at one factor at a time, and can't remember more than one factor: so, causation is whatever multi-factorial event he first thinks of. The very definition of failure to deal with nuance.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:34 am

What is happening Bobbo, is that you are ignoring what is as obvious as the nose on your face.

Rape is a sex act. Sex acts come from the sex drive. There is nothing even strange about my statement. It is simple scientific sense. The sex drive causes sexual arousal, which causes the sex act. Simple.

Nikki's references talk of how rapists get aroused in strange ways. Sure. No problem there. They do. But the arousal is the sex drive, and that causes the sex act of rape. You can do the ostrich thing and refuse to look at reality, but reality does not go away.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 am

Well Lance....repetition alone actually kinda evidences a weakness in your position. Where are your links to sex drive causes rape?

What you have contra is 3 independent minded folks who disagree with you and the link to a concept that SUBSUMES your own (FTL above by Nikki):

From this comprehensive study, we can conclude the following:
1. The rapist becomes sexually aroused by violence against women. The non-rapist does not.
2. The rapist is able to commit aggressive violence while sexually aroused. The non-rapist is not.
3. The rapist lacks empathy for his victim. The non-rapist possesses empathy for women.
4. The rapist's emotional response toward a woman is an indicator of his ability to rape her.
5. Most disturbing, concurrent or intervening events can cause the non-rapist to respond like the rapist.

I suspect Lance that what you are so non-scientifically doing is simply places yourself into an imagined scenario of rape and thinking it would be the same sexual arouse/violence action that is what you imagine. But read the study above. Most likely were you in such a circumstance you could not rape when sexually aroused.

I posted somewhere, maybe not this thread but maybe, my own self involved rape of a woman I was attracted to. I concluded I wouldn't rape the woman because: "...what would we talk about afterwards?" You see.....a concern totally disconnected from what rape "is." Rape is NOT the end product of sexual desire.

Necessary but not sufficient. C'mon Lance: grow a new idea.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:16 am

C'mon Bobbo.

Grow a brain.
All those references are about sexual arousal. Sexual arousal begins with a sex drive.

No sex drive means no sexual arousal. Duh !

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:05 am

From this comprehensive study, we can conclude the following:
1. The rapist becomes sexually aroused by violence against women. The non-rapist does not.
As a scientist Lance, I'm surprised the math of it all did not sway you? So, at risk of being confusing, let me rephrase it another way, for as we know, repetition is the mark of an idiot: so say the same thing but use different words. An intro to word play if you you must know.

so Lance: if rape is caused by the sex drive and all people have the sex drive, then how come not all people rape?

Again: if A does not = B, and C does not = B, but A+C=B, then what is the cause of B? aka: If sex drive alone does not cause rape, and a desire for violence does not cause rape, but sex drive + desire for violence does cause rape, then what causes rape???????

Have you noticed you hardly ever respond to anyone Else's argument but your own? Could be why you repeat yourself so much. Try something new...............actually ENGAGE the discussion. You might learn sumting.

WARNING: There is a trap here. Lance...repeat something you have already said about 5 times....and you will jump right into it. Now: proceed.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:31 am

Bobbo

Please stop acting like an idiot. I do not want to descend to calling you one.

The quote you gave above is EXACTLY what I am talking about. A rapist gets sexually aroused and then commits rape. He MUST get sexually aroused to be able to commit rape. But no one who lacks a sex drive can get sexually aroused. There are people who have no sex drive. Like eunuchs, and the 1% of the population who are totally asexual (See "asexuality" on Wiki). Those people do not get sexually aroused and they never, ever commit rape. Only people with a sex drive can get sexually aroused, and thus commit rape.

Why do some people with a sex drive commit rape and others not? Because all humans are different. Duh !

All of us like money, but only some become bank robbers. Same thing.

You really do say some pretty silly things, Bobbo.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:42 am

RIGHT into the trap............even when forwarned. So.....call me an idiot, I've got my rubber and glue ready to go:

Ahem: I assume YOU, ME, AND 99% of males are aroused by our SEX DRIVE..............not the desire to commit VIOLENCE. Is that plain english just too subtle for you? You never have answered whether or not English is your first language. Nuance in any foreign tongue is easy to miss.....I thought the MATH of it all would avoid that problem..........but, no, here you are, busily repeating yourself. Try to concentrate on what published studies and the good folks on this forum have been telling you. Squint if you have to.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:10 am

I don't know if the problem here isn't a misunderstanding of the definition of the sex drive. There seems to be assertions that the impulse to have sex is a primary driving force in rape. Also there are assertions that it is a secondary force driven by other factors. The urge to reproduce is certainly a primary driver, but the same drive can also clearly be brought on by a desire for violence. So the simplistic term 'sex drive' can ambiguously mean the desire for sex or the impulse towards sexual rape as a result of a desire to do violence. The former is caused by the sex drive, the latter caused by need for violence and, I'd argue, not technically the sex drive itself. I wonder if terminology isn't a confusing issue here.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with Lance that the sex drive clearly is a driver for rape, or that the sex drive is only one factor of many. The contention is the notion that the sex drive is always a factor. It should be easy to comprehend that heterosexual male/male rape (genital or object) is not primarily sex-driven. It's not a stretch to think that other forms of rape might also not involve a sexual driver.

I agree with the general idea that Nikki is communicating: A rapist is someone who is, at least in that moment, incapable of putting their victim's needs or human rights ahead of their own, and has lost (with or without their own volition) their own self control. At that moment their needs are their only concern and they don't care what effect it has on anyone else. This may change later as, or if, they regret what they did and at that point other social pressures & effects come in to play that determine how they react beyond that point. That's another topic.

I'd also like to voice a mild disagreement with a couple of Nikki's points, however.
Nikki Nyx wrote:The cause is the fact that the rapist does not consider his victim to be human.
Only a minor issue this as I'm assuming this was exaggeration for emphasis, but I don't think a rapist considers their victim to be non-human, even figuratively. I just think they have no respect for their humanity, at least at that point.
I don't think it's true that the impulse for rape is triggered by the belief that the victim-to-be is less-than-human (figuratively), just that this is something that becomes true during the event. Desire is the thing that dampens the empathy. Desire of what is the contention.
Nikki Nyx wrote:experiments proved that men are taught to rape. They're steeped in a society that consistently objectifies women, from advertising.
I think that this is too much of a simplification. It's clear that people (and not just men; although predominately men, granted) learn that others can be objectified, and that facilitates the lack of empathy required to rape. To say that men are taught is probably not correct as this implies directed effort (on the part of advertisers in Nikki's example) to encourage rapists. In reality it's a feedback process of market & social forces - and of lots of people in advertising not giving a {!#%@} about anyone but themselves (same thing occurs in journalism). The meme influences society which encourages new memes. Feedback. You see the effect in film, music and advertising to name but three, and they all influence each other in highly complex ways. I don't think there is any malice here (which doesn't mean I don't think we should take steps to curtail the harm that this effect can produce).

Also, despite no definitive evidence (I've not looked) I'll go on record as saying that rape was definitely a thing before advertising was a thing.

I'd also like to point out that objectification in and of itself isn't a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing in conjunction with the inability to change your attitude with a change of context, and continued objectification once other factors come into play. For example it's fine to objectify a porn actress when the context is 'watching a porn film for 10 minutes, er I mean an hour. or two. yes, two. beaucoup de stamina'. However it becomes wrong if you continue to treat the same actress as an object if you bump into her in a café and strike up a conversation.

Just my two cents. Although, looking back at it all it looks more like a tenner. And I'm not sure all of it makes sense. Well I'll post it anyway and maybe it'll turn out not to be utter gibberish.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:34 am

On being taught to rape.

There is far more rape in primitive societies than in modern society. In fact, according to Prof. Stephen Pinker ("Better Angels of our Nature"), rape is diminishing over time. If primitive societies without TV etc do far more rape (which they do), it appears unlikely that rape is a result of some kind of modern media conditioning.

There is no doubt that some rapists have their sex drive activated by violence to women. I do not think they are a majority, though, since date rape is the most common, and that seems to be a result of heavy petting leading to a young guy, whose sex arousal is over the top, not taking no for an answer.

Whatever the pathological reasons for the rape, it requires sexual arousal, and that happens only with a reasonably strong sex drive.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:16 am

WHooooooosh!
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:23 am

That presumably is Bobbo falling on his sword.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:24 am

Io wrote:It's clear that people (and not just men; although predominately men, granted) learn that others can be objectified, and that facilitates the lack of empathy required to rape.
A quibble: its the lack of empathy that facilitates the objectification.

Sex drive and the act of sex or placing one genital inside another. Lance makes no distinction. A drive vs an act. Nuance matters.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:That presumably is Bobbo falling on his sword.
HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I claimed dibs on the rubber and the glue. What ya doing?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:16 am

Here's another demonstration of Lance's yet to bloom command of the English language:

The Turpin Family. Those 13 kiddies some grown to adulthood who had been chained up, starved, and tortured for their entire lives................... Now Lance: do you think that torture and abuse was the product of the parental drive.......or something else? ..................Now, be fair: they were parents and all.

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-amer ... D=ref_fark
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:41 pm

Parental drive equated to rape ?

Bobbo, what is wrong with you ? That is a ridiculous example of over-generalisation.

My view is simple.

Sex drive plus stimulus equals sexual arousal.
Sexual arousal in a raping arsehole leads to rape.

Without the sex drive, there is no sexual arousal and no rape. With the sex drive, rape becomes possible. The problem is that this idea is not emotionally acceptable to a whole bunch of morons who use emotional logic instead of brains.

The extremists among feminists say :
Sex is nice. I like it.
Rape is horrid.
Therefore rape has nothing to do with sex.

This is emotional logic at its worst, and I am disappointed that skeptics support this kind of bull-{!#%@}.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:44 pm

Silly Hooman.
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