Politically correct nonsense.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:25 pm

Mara wrote:Why would a person really want to raise a child?
I've paid a small fortune in IVF and we're about to have two. However, culture is pretty good today and it doesn't matter anymore if you have children or not.

Secondly, If I was a subsistence farmer a hundred years ago "May I be blessed with more young farmhands"
:D
Mara wrote:...hope they will take care of you when you get old,
That one is sort of real. I had to drop everything for two to three years, as both my parents had strokes. However my elder brother ran away and only returned for the reading of their wills. ( I will kill him eventually). :D

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:12 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mara wrote:Why would a person really want to raise a child?
I've paid a small fortune in IVF and we're about to have two. However, culture is pretty good today and it doesn't matter anymore if you have children or not.

You didn't answer the "why" question. I have never wanted kiddies. Too afraid I would not be a good parent, however, my fiance once said her father didn't "want" kiddies either but he loved her mother and accepted them as they came along. I said "that sounds about right." She came from a family of 6 kiddies so wanted a small one of 4. Had twins and settled for 5. Not with me.......the guy she dated after me that said he actually wanted kiddies.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You didn't answer the "why" question.
I just want to have kids. It's probably genetic, but being lonely and old does worry me. :D

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:38 pm

Yep...being Child Free, I do note the love, affection, and support Mom had in her declining days. I'll have............none.

Pros and Cons to all we do.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:50 pm

Gord wrote:I agree 78% with Mara. The other 22% of me will cling to my chocolate until someone pries it from my cold dead hand!
At least it won't be melted by that stage.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I just want to have kids. It's probably genetic, but being lonely and old does worry me. :D
Being old with kidlettes clambering all over me like an opossum mother kinda turns me off. But the idea of grand kidlettes scrambling all over me is something I must have.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:18 am

ElectricMonk wrote: It's not about you,or your children: it's about their great-great-xxx-grandchildren and what they will achieve.
LOL they will achieve nothing more than a basic homo sapien can achieve...That is, if they make it despite global warming and overpopulation. Anti-natalism is also a philosophical concept not evidence based...which is the crucial point here.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:21 am

Major Malfunction wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:I just want to have kids. It's probably genetic, but being lonely and old does worry me. :D
Being old with kidlettes clambering all over me like an opossum mother kinda turns me off. But the idea of grand kidlettes scrambling all over me is something I must have.
LOL in the real world, they will be like 'Grandpa, I need a guarantor for a home mortgage... ' that kind of scrambling all over you? ;-) The irony is that your grandchildren likely will be smart enough not to have children...

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:24 am

If they can't out-smart you, out-breed 'em. That's what I always say...
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:27 am

Major Malfunction wrote:If they can't out-smart you, out-breed 'em. That's what I always say...
wonder if that is why we have 7 billion people in the world and growing... all those who cannot be outsmarted...

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:31 am

Matthew Allard wrote: I just want to have kids. It's probably genetic, but being lonely and old does worry me. :D
Matt, they have good drugs for that these days :-D

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:35 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yep...being Child Free, I do note the love, affection, and support Mom had in her declining days. I'll have............none.

Pros and Cons to all we do.
'love and affection' are just overly romanticised medieval terms for anatomy, physiology and psychology...just saying.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:42 am

Mara wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:If they can't out-smart you, out-breed 'em. That's what I always say...
wonder if that is why we have 7 billion people in the world and growing... all those who cannot be outsmarted...
It makes the maxim all the more pertinent, eh?
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:43 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mara wrote:Why would a person really want to raise a child?
I've paid a small fortune in IVF and we're about to have two. However, culture is pretty good today and it doesn't matter anymore if you have children or not.

You didn't answer the "why" question. I have never wanted kiddies. Too afraid I would not be a good parent, however, my fiance once said her father didn't "want" kiddies either but he loved her mother and accepted them as they came along. I said "that sounds about right." She came from a family of 6 kiddies so wanted a small one of 4. Had twins and settled for 5. Not with me.......the guy she dated after me that said he actually wanted kiddies.


I actually did answer the question if you are able to focus on the actual reality, not the overly romanticised version of it.

Fear of children is a psychological issue not an intelligent choice, everyone can be a parent as long as their reproductive organs produce. I have worked with 14 years old heroin addicts that managed to become mothers and brought children up. It takes more brain to use contraception than just fu*k without it.

All you need to do is realise that it is just a basic reproductive process not a religion created concept of a miracle...
Last edited by Mara on Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:46 am

Major Malfunction wrote:
Mara wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:If they can't out-smart you, out-breed 'em. That's what I always say...
wonder if that is why we have 7 billion people in the world and growing... all those who cannot be outsmarted...
It makes the maxim all the more pertinent, eh?
it calls for homo sapiens to realise that they are really not that smart... ;-)

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:57 am

I think the Chinese one child policy was a good idea. I think Indian and African peoples could take a note from that page.

How's that for non PC?
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:08 am

Matthew Allard wrote: However, culture is pretty good today and it doesn't matter anymore if you have children or not.
Cultures are made up of old socio-political forces that hold everyone back from progress, if you go against it, you are doing the intelligent thing.
Matthew Allard wrote: Secondly, If I was a subsistence farmer a hundred years ago "May I be blessed with more young farmhands" [/color] :D
That is a conservative thinking, classic for farmers, there are other ways of understanding life.
Matthew Allard wrote: I had to drop everything for two to three years, as both my parents had strokes. However my elder brother ran away and only returned for the reading of their wills. ( I will kill him eventually). [/color] :D
Or, you could just accept that you are, in fact, going to die and it is likely not to be pretty - cheaper, better for environment, smarter, closer to the truth... :-)

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:14 am

Major Malfunction wrote:I think the Chinese one child policy was a good idea. I think Indian and African peoples could take a note from that page.

How's that for non PC?
when you think about it, humans in China wear face masks because they cannot breathe from all the pollution and overpopulation so I would be seriously questioning whether it is a complete denial to reproduce at all. It shows you how stupid homo sapiens can be - THEY CANNOT BREATHE.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:29 am

I note that the population explosion fallacy is once more being raised.

Note well. The ONLY places where reproduction is causing significant population growth is in poor communities. Wealthy societies actually have birth rates lower than replacement. The only reason that advanced western nations have growing populations is immigration. Without immigrants, the falling population would be so bad that it would cause serious economic issues.

The fertility of nations is shown below.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ility_rate

Any fertility below 2.1 means a falling population.
India has 2.4, which is barely above replacement rate.
The USA is 1.9, below replacement.
China is 1.6, which is well below replacement.

The real contributors to population growth are the very poor and unsophisticated countries such as sub Saharan nations. Our own countries actually need more children.
Last edited by Lance Kennedy on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:36 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I note that the population explosion fallacy is once more being raised.

Note well. The ONLY places where reproduction is causing significant population growth is in poor communities. Wealthy societies actually have birth rates lower than replacement. The only reason that advanced western nations have growing populations is immigration. Without immigrants, the falling population would be so bad that it would cause serious economic issues.
I note that the belief in measuring rates of population as in relation to ‘replacement’ is a politically and economic driven fallacy that has nothing to do with homo saphiens as animals of the planet earth and actual science...

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:37 am

Mara wrote:when you think about it, humans in China wear face masks because they cannot breathe from all the pollution
Well, there are three reasons Asians wear masks...

Politeness if they feel sick so as not to spread it around.
Paranoid of getting sick.
And the general Human failing fashion victims.

Also ninjas.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:38 am

Ninjas, definitely the ninjas...

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:40 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I note that the population explosion fallacy is once more being raised.
Thats not a fallacy but rather a prediction that had defined conditions that were not met.

Lance Kennedy wrote: Note well. The ONLY places where reproduction is causing significant population growth is in poor communities.
.....and so.....it is accurate to say they would benefit, from reduced birth rates.
Lance Kennedy wrote: Without immigrants, the falling population would be so bad that it would cause serious economic issues.
Sounds like the False Dichotomy Fallacy. If you need immigration to support your economy, then your economy is faultily based: aka: a PONZI SCHEME.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:41 am

Mara wrote:
I note that the belief in measuring rates of population as in relation to ‘replacement’ is a politically and economic driven fallacy that has nothing to do with homo saphiens as animals of the planet earth and actual science...
Mara
Please try to stick to the facts. I have posted a reference for you to look at to find those facts.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:42 am

Bobbo

Low population growth is a problem for many nations. Japan for example has so few children that there is insufficient productivity to support an ageing population.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:46 am

Mara wrote: I note that the belief in measuring rates of population as in relation to ‘replacement’ is a politically and economic driven fallacy that has nothing to do with homo saphiens as animals of the planet earth and actual science...
That is a silly statement.......surprising Lance gave it a thumbs up.

It is not "a belief" but one of many measures/metrics that can be applied. Totally useful depending on the subject of interest. It is not a fallacy. It is not politically or economically driven. Just a calculation. It has everything to do with homo sapiens as animals...or any living thing in any environment wherever it is and is as actual science as you can get as it is merely a statistical computation: mathematics being the language of science.

Other than being WRONG in every single thing you said: good post.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

Low population growth is a problem for many nations. Japan for example has so few children that there is insufficient productivity to support an ageing population.
Now: be relevant to what I posted.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:48 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Mara wrote:
I note that the belief in measuring rates of population as in relation to ‘replacement’ is a politically and economic driven fallacy that has nothing to do with homo saphiens as animals of the planet earth and actual science...
Mara
Please try to stick to the facts. I have posted a reference for you to look at to find those facts.
He said NINJAS. That covers a lot of ground...plus disappearing powder.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Major Malfunction » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:58 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Low population growth is a problem for many nations. Japan for example has so few children that there is insufficient productivity to support an ageing population.
Just chuck 'em in a wood chipper. Problem solved. Fertiliser.

What's the big economic deal?

Why artificially prop it up to some arbitrary number?

Why not just let the population settle at its natural carrying capacity?

What's the obsession with endless economic growth?
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Mara wrote: I note that the belief in measuring rates of population as in relation to ‘replacement’ is a politically and economic driven fallacy that has nothing to do with homo saphiens as animals of the planet earth and actual science...
That is a silly statement.......surprising Lance gave it a thumbs up.

It is not "a belief" but one of many measures/metrics that can be applied. Totally useful depending on the subject of interest. It is not a fallacy. It is not politically or economically driven. Just a calculation. It has everything to do with homo sapiens as animals...or any living thing in any environment wherever it is and is as actual science as you can get as it is merely a statistical computation: mathematics being the language of science.

Other than being WRONG in every single thing you said: good post.

That’s a problem with economists and social scientists, they think that the truth is open to interpretation, hard sciences do not do that. Stop misusing the term ‘facts’ please. The boundaries that you call countries are man made - start with that realization...in few years you’ll get there...

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:51 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

Low population growth is a problem for many nations. Japan for example has so few children that there is insufficient productivity to support an ageing population.

And that has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with understanding of how environment works. This is a classic case of illusionary destructive antroprocentrism, still embedded in conservative mentality from the days of monotheistic religions. It’s 2018, time to move on with sciences.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:19 am

Mara, in your opinion, was there ever a time when humans were living "in balance" with the environment? Would you be ok with humans reproducing at a sustainable level?

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: I just want to have kids. It's probably genetic, but being lonely and old does worry me. :D
Mara wrote:Matt, they have good drugs for that these days :-D
Trust me. Soon after I made my IVF "genetic donation" I went back to some good drugs. I was straight for almost a year to maximise sperm count and reduce genetic abnormalities. :lol:

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:30 am

genetic abnormalities... plenty of those around.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Mara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:45 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Mara, in your opinion, was there ever a time when humans were living "in balance" with the environment? Would you be ok with humans reproducing at a sustainable level?
Yes, there was such time but you need to look at Indigenous populations of the world, eco-centrism rather than monotheism / anthropocentrism (very important to understand) is at heart of their cultures... If you want closer to us historically speaking things were less 'out of balance' prior to industrialisation, prior to Fordism, Taylorism etc. An analogy would be in saying you can kill less people in a specific time with a knife than with a machine gun (no idea why I chose this rather wacky metaphor...)

Would I be ok with it? I do not think it's up to me. You would need to look at numbers, age, local distribution, waste management, general habits, industrialisation patterns to support specific agglomerations, farm factories including marine, land management...it's not just about numbers at one point of the globe hiding heads in the sand. At the moment, we do whatever we like driven by economic rationale, it is like analysing all the factories in the world based on how much money they have in cash registers rather than size, what and how they do things.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:33 am

Mara

Indigenous people's have been shockingly out of balance with the environment. This is shown by the vast number of species that went extinct when they moved in. An estimated 1000 species of birds and reptiles killed off by Polynesians crossing the Pacific. Several hundred by Carib Indians entering the Caribbean . About 50 species of megafauna wiped out by early man in North America. Over 100 species of megafauna wiped out by the first humans in Australia. Numerous in Madagascar. Ditto NZ and Hawaii.

The only reason this is not obviously also true for Europe and Africa is that human and pre humans have been there so long that their extinction effect is hidden by time.

There has NEVER been a time when humans have lived in some kind of romantic harmony with nature. That idea is total and complete bull dust.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Gord » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:38 am

I reject your "don't know" and substitute my own.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:17 pm

Talking about depleting the planet's resources makes no sense if humans actively increase the resources through asteroid mining and solar energy harvesting more efficiently than plants can.
Neither does it make sense if humans establish colonies on other planets or live in generation ships.

In short: anti-natalists presume to know how the future of the universe is going to play out and have decided that humans will be the doom of it: it is just another form of anthropocentric view of the universe.

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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:35 pm

Thats a big IF....or, several of them.

Natalism goes to the progress or not of the human species...NOT.. the universe. And yeah...you can think about it and try to maximize the outcome, or not. Homo Sapiens: aka "wise man"...aka think about things....TRY to maximize the human outcome, make errors, correct, give it another go. Nothing else is acceptable or in our nature.
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Re: Politically correct nonsense.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:20 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Talking about depleting the planet's resources makes no sense if humans actively increase the resources through asteroid mining and solar energy harvesting more efficiently than plants can.
Neither does it make sense if humans establish colonies on other planets or live in generation ships.

In short: anti-natalists presume to know how the future of the universe is going to play out and have decided that humans will be the doom of it: it is just another form of anthropocentric view of the universe.
Well done, EM.

That is a very good and very rational post.