P. Theory of forms

How should we think about weird things?
AliasJamesCarpenter

P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:25 pm

Howdy P!

I was just reflecting on how to manage some creative activities in my job and a few controversial theories popped up. I don't know why would this help me solve work related issues, but anyhow, maybe my unconscious self wants to serve me well today. :) So a notion got me to jot down some of my thoughts from the process to the open.

1st q
What is your experience with 'Theory of forms'?

Cheers

User avatar
Poodle
True Skeptic
Posts: 10165
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Poodle » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:20 pm

It's all Greek to me.

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Cadmusteeth » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:35 pm

I read a little bit of that in an introduction to philosophy class a few years back.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29565
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:50 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:I was just reflecting on how to manage some creative activities in my job
What is the nature of this creative work, in general terms?

I worked for a Swedish chartered accountant who had absolutely no creativity or personality. He worked out all the tax incentives for making TV documentaries & shows and gathered creative people together, to make shows, whom he looked upon, as cost lines on an excel spreadsheet and no more. Sadly I was in the admin area and my created input was limited to filling in six minute unit time-sheets. :D

User avatar
Nobrot
Poster
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Nobrot » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:I was just reflecting on how to manage some creative activities in my job
What is the nature of this creative work, in general terms?

I worked for a Swedish chartered accountant who had absolutely no creativity or personality. He worked out all the tax incentives for making TV documentaries & shows and gathered creative people together, to make shows, whom he looked upon, as cost lines on an excel spreadsheet and no more. Sadly I was in the admin area and my created input was limited to filling in six minute unit time-sheets. :D
Sorry but 'chartered accountant?
[ytube][/ytube]

AliasJamesCarpenter

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:45 pm

Poodle wrote: It's all Greek to me.
Hey, hey Poodle!

Thanks for chipping in. ;)

[note: I thought about expressing this in transcendent Greek-English parallels to be super funny but it would be too complex.]

With a very-very super scientific method, I will try the impossible and demonstrate and formalize this idea to easy consumption. :)

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That is a representation of Theory of Forms.

:)

AliasJamesCarpenter

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:51 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote: I read a little bit of that in an introduction to philosophy class a few years back.
Hi Cadmusteeth,

Thanks for your response! Good to know.
Is there any residual memory fragments from those philo classes? Anything, it's ok if it's not about ToF.

Ta ta

AliasJamesCarpenter

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:07 pm

Hi Matt,

Many thanks for the reaction!
Matthew Ellard wrote: What is the nature of this creative work, in general terms?
It was/is actually a collaboration game (it is similar to 'brainstorming') in a specific product development context.
Matthew Ellard wrote: had absolutely no creativity or personality
Well, Matt. Funny you say that, as I'm a Swedish chartered accountant with no creativity. And I produce and love TV documentaries.

I kid. :) Anyhow, it seems to me that this fella was standing on his feet, in this way maybe he's creative?

Your story is funny and fits. Let me paraphrase, how I get it. How we grasp experiences.

I venture the guy sees it very differently. But first and foremost, you had an experience which you'd lived through with distinct and presumably changing feelings. And now you look back and maybe see a very distinct picture, with possibly altering features.

It's not overthinking, is it?

Cheerio

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29565
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:26 am

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote: It's not overthinking, is it?
No. It's worth thinking about. As I am an accountant I had to read all the larger firms "how to" books on management accounting, consulting and eventually studied industrial & organisational psychology (which was quite useful and validity tested. ).

For mixed creative and production "teams" I have concluded there must be one person who is the visionary and all other are there to submit better creative ideas or production methods to that one person. It is the executive producer ( or financier) who has taken the risk to invest in that one visionary person, so its the Exec.Prod's money and risk. Sadly that means high cost creative ventures are hierarchical.

For software brainstorming, it seems to me that most team input would be people's experience of other external projects and that after that information is introduced you can get rid of most of those people and replace them with the most skilled to achieve the visionary's vision for the least cost or maximum benefit.

In the "old days" a TV production or feature film production had roles that had evolved economically to match the most efficient trade off between creative and economical production. This was stable for decades. Nowadays people adopt meaningless fancy titles that don't mean anything and float around productions. ( I love sacking them) However, the best TV, Film, live stage, and music production teams still retain the old titles and the producer knows exactly what everyone does and where they fit into the hierarchy. ( The production accountant is way way way down the pecking order but has the ear of the Executive Producer.....who says who gets sacked) :D

AliasJamesCarpenter

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:55 am

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the resp!
Matthew Ellard wrote: "one person who is the visionary"
In a way, this is true and right. In "knowledge works" (it's a jargon sry.) there are many games called 'collaboration games' to make your team achieve some distinct clear goal, you can go for creativity for example. Or there are games to prioritize things, or how to design something. These are comptetencies that you can learn and develop.
And creativity in its profound self is a competency also. It's not an ability or capacity so to speak. Everyone is creative. The 'visionary' is the client or customer or 'owner'. :)
It is very clear in the inno industry that in most cases, the seniors of a company are good operators but that's it. There are only a small number of CEOs who have any resemblance with the Appleman. And I could argue fkn hard against how creative he was.
The other point you say is that "creative ventures are hierarchical." It is a hard nut to crack. I am in a global innovation panel and this is the opposite what we see but it's definitely a bias of somekind. And to to give it an other pivot. Just take a look to the AUS companies. Yo man!
The small 2-9? (don't remember the exact number sry) SMEs are the ones who are able to spin the whole economy. They are creative, not just a bit. Are they hierachical? Well, what "hierarchical" means could be a stupid run for a pseudo-skeptical BSer, but to give it a go the term is: "a body of persons in authority". I can't imagine when a small company goes into bloodbath because of a stupid tension due to authority. And of course, we've both learnt psychology and we both know that this is not what happens in a small team.

Just to reflect on your point, I reckon it's a tidbit really. :)

Brainstorming. Well, we conduct R&D in many industries so sw would be a misrepresentation of the horizon. Anyhow, what you just described is something existing, not a madeup situation. :D Hell man, we are real! :) (Oh boy, just read the topic: "Do you believe in water". We have some hard epistomologists here. I was there, it was awful.)

So brainstorming, and we have a jargon for it, of course! :), which goes by "expert judgement".
The situation you mentioned normally happens when you start-up a project or some bigger initiative. It's not about replacing anyone, but to get expert knowledge, finding the best team who can accomplish the goals and the list goes on.

But you are right.

But this is not what I've asked. :)
I was in a situation when I got the impulse: "Theory of Forms. I can use it in this situation, or..." And the last time, I'd had any direct experience, reading about ToF was 10 ys back. So, I think :) I'm chewing upon how can I use ToF in a real situ.

Well. :) Just to fckup the whole conversation. :) Sry.

Anyhow, I've had a feeling that production is effiicient and not that red tape...

User avatar
Nobrot
Poster
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Nobrot » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:18 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:...And I could argue fkn hard against how creative he was...
I can argue fkn hard that you desist in verbiage. That way you would be more readable.

AliasJamesCarpenter

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:26 pm

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:Well. :) Just to fckup the whole conversation. :) Sry.

AliasJamesCarpenter

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by AliasJamesCarpenter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:30 pm

Nobrot wrote:
AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:...And I could argue fkn hard against how creative he was...
I can argue fkn hard that you desist in verbiage. That way you would be more readable.
We can all add value. Thank you.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11853
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:29 pm

Plato's theory of Forms or theory of Ideas argues that non-physical (but substantial) forms (or ideas) represent the most accurate reality. When used in this sense, the word form or idea is often capitalized.

As such, this does not seem to me to be anything a skeptic would take seriously.

Creativity is itself a bit vague. Not subject to solid scientific definition. I am not sure why a Jackson Pollock painting should be seen to be very creative, while a well designed scientific experiment is not?????

I write science fiction as a hobby. Does this make me creative? My writings are based on what I see as genuine science, and I eschew the 'magic' found in most scifi stories. Is my lack of 'magic' a sign I am less creative?

User avatar
Cadmusteeth
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:43 pm
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: P. Theory of forms

Post by Cadmusteeth » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:54 am

AliasJamesCarpenter wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote: I read a little bit of that in an introduction to philosophy class a few years back.
Hi Cadmusteeth,

Thanks for your response! Good to know.
Is there any residual memory fragments from those philo classes? Anything, it's ok if it's not about ToF.

Ta ta
I remember having existential crises reading about the various philosophies. (It helped that they shown what they lacked when getting over them)