Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:17 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Matthew

Since you obviously know a lot about the aboriginal peoples of Australia, let me throw a question at you. Well, actually, it is a thought I had some time ago.

I read how the aboriginals use 'mosaic burning' as a technique to encourage new grass shoots, and thus attract their prey animals. The book raved on about how this was the aboriginal living in harmony with nature, since those mosaic burnings seem to be good for the ecology.

I had a contrary thought. Since humans have been in Australia for somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 years, it is long enough for minor evolutionary change. It occurred to me that it might not be the aboriginals adapting to nature's needs so much as the plants in Australia adapting to the impact of the aboriginals way of life. If the aboriginals adopt mosaic burning as a regular thing, the plants that can thrive under those conditions become dominant and the vulnerable plants die out. So it appears as if the aboriginals are helping the plant ecology, when all they are doing to changing the ecology to those plants that can tolerate their behaviour.

What do you think?
That reminds me to some extend of the Yellowstone trees, the new seedlings of which were eaten off by deer after the wolves had been eradicated. I think the trees had something like 30 year cycles and were not able to regenerate until the deer population was kept in check.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:20 pm

The Web of Life....

:)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:54 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I had a contrary thought. Since humans have been in Australia for somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 years, it is long enough for minor evolutionary change.
Humans have been in Australia for 40,000 or so years, but not the same humans. The aboriginals who were the first to reach Australia are not the same as the aboriginals here today. Modern Aboriginals are actually genetically "continental indians" and have only been here for 5,000 years. This makes absolute sense. The "indian spice islands" or Indonesia are right above us.
Lance Kennedy wrote: It occurred to me that it might not be the aboriginals adapting to nature's needs so much as the plants in Australia adapting to the impact of the aboriginals way of life. If the aboriginals adopt mosaic burning as a regular thing, the plants that can thrive under those conditions become dominant and the vulnerable plants die out. So it appears as if the aboriginals are helping the plant ecology, when all they are doing to changing the ecology to those plants that can tolerate their behaviour. What do you think?
I don't know. What you say makes sense. Certainly grain breeds changed dramatically in less than 5,000 year in the fertile crescent. However this is a thought that can only be supported "on the facts" and I don't know the facts.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:05 pm

kennyc wrote:Science takes time......sometimes deep time.
and also has dead ends. I was working on a dead end in the late 70's. In the late 70's hominids were thought to be hunters & gatherers. Observing what populations would have cranial crests would suggest something about their diet ( powerful jaw muscles connect to the crest ) however early hominids turned out, not to be hunters and gatherers and thus all the initial specific population questions for "hunter" hominids were replaced by specific questions about "scavanger" hominids and the whole process started again years after I left.

Somewhere in the bowels of Sydney university are wide carriage prints or 5" floppy discs with my classes previous efforts set out, leading in intricate detail towards a dead end.

In accounting this is called a "sunk cost"

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
kennyc wrote:Science takes time......sometimes deep time.
and also has dead ends. I was working on a dead end in the late 70's. In the late 70's hominids were thought to be hunters & gatherers. Observing what populations would have cranial crests would suggest something about their diet ( powerful jaw muscles connect to the crest ) however early hominids turned out, not to be hunters and gatherers and thus all the initial specific population questions for "hunter" hominids were replaced by specific questions about "scavanger" hominids and the whole process started again years after I left.

Somewhere in the bowels of Sydney university are wide carriage prints or 5" floppy discs with my classes previous efforts set out, leading in intricate detail towards a dead end.

In accounting this is called a "sunk cost"

:D

True, that is primarily what science is about -- skepticism, disproof of hypotheses, refinement of theories with better theories....successive refinement and elimination of incorrect hypotheses and/or theories.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:10 am

I should maybe post another post I made in another thread 'why are we different' (which was hijacked by Daedalus throughout and thus pittered out to nothing much) and repost it here, where more people seem to be engaging in a more productive fashion.
zeuzzz wrote:I think that it needs to be always kept in consciousness that to an extent we are plants, and the diet of our ancestors is almost certainly the critical catalyst in propelling our consciousness from our protohominid state to making us as truly human as you or I today.

The paradigm that seems to be emerging is that when it used to be thought of one gene to one enzyme, one gene one protein, and that may be true to an extent, but what actually seems to be important in making these systems so complex is post translational modifications, both internal and external. The proteins are made and come off the ribosome, they may be epigenetically methylated, this is not genomic but this is proteomics. Meaning that one gene may make one protein but that protein may feed into multiple functions, and a single gene is not as simple a picture as it used to be a single gene can make proteins that have multiple functions, and it's at this level that the complexity arises.

Epigenetic alterations are far more flexible than genetic changes, and allow for very rapid yet easily reversible adaptation, so determining which proteins can be turned off, via release of the usual hormones/endorphins/neurochemicals that relate to particular states of mind, is very important.

Epigenetic changes determine which proteins are transcribed. So far theres three systems which intertwine with each other to silence genes: histone modifications (histone proteins that are the primary components of chromatin responsible for forming DNA that makes up chromosomes), RNA-associated silencing and DNA methylation.

I commented on some of these factors on my blog.
"When thinking about diet, plants and drugs culturally we tend to focus on episodes of intoxication, but many drugs are used in sub-threshold or maintenance doses; coffee and tobacco are obvious examples in our culture. The result of this is a kind of 'ambience of intoxication'. Like fish in water, people in culture swim in the virtually invisible medium of culturally sanctioned yet artificial states of mind.



The ways in which humans use plants, foods, and drugs cause the values of individuals and, ultimately, whole societies to shift. The effect of drink culture is all too readily becoming apparent to our health services. Eating some foods makes us happy, eating others sleepy, and still others alert. We are jovial, restless, aroused, or depressed depending on what we have eaten. Society tacitly encourages certain behaviors that correspond to internal feelings, thereby encouraging the use of substances that produce acceptable behaviors with little side effects whilst discouraging destructive compounds.

At Gombe Steam National Park was one of the fist institutions that noticed Apes would tend to even eat food that they did not appear to like the taste of, or were not able to digest very well. Despite previously not enjoying this food, the Apes would still selectively go looking for it [1] Eventually a redish oil was found called Rhiarubrine-A. Neil Towers of British Columbia University soon found out that this oil kills bacteria in their dozens, but just below the significant 10 in a million to make it clinically dangerous. [2]

Thus it seemed that even if the food they learn to eat was unpleasant, if it has a positive effect on it's well being, health or mind in some way, they would tend to continue eating it by self medicating themselves through their choice of food selection from their surrounding natural pharmacy [3][4][5]

Since other animals enjoy psychoactive drugs, like cats love catnip, or monkeys enjoy alcohol they scrounge from humans, it is only natural to expect chimps to also; and numerous studies have found this if they enjoy the medicinal effects they continue to ingest it despite of the taste [5][6] This is sometimes referred to zoopharmacognosy [7][8][9] The basic premise of zoo- pharmacognosy is that animals utilize plant secondary compounds or other non-nutritional substances to medicate themselves. Among primatologists a major focus of concern about plant secondary compounds in the diet has been on how and why pri- mates can cope with their presence "

[1] Huffman, Michael (2007) Current evidence for self-medication in primates: A multidisciplinary perspective - YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 40:171–200

[2] G. H. Neil Towers (1996) 'Leaf-swallowing by chimpanzees: A behavioral adaptation for the control of strongyle nematode infections' - International Journal of Primatology August 1996, Volume 17, Issue 4, pp 475-503

[3] Dale H. Clayton Nathan D. Wolfe (1998) The adaptive significance of self-medication Volume 8, Issue 2, February 1993, Pages 60–63

[4] Andrew Fowler, Yianna Koutsioni, Volker Sommer (2007) Leaf-swallowing in Nigerian chimpanzees: evidence for assumed self-medication January 2007, Volume 48, Issue 1, pp 73-76

[5] Harold Altshuler (1975) 'Intragastric self-administration of psychoactive drugs by the rhesus monkey' Volume 17, Issue 6, 15 September, Life Sciences Pages 883–890

[6] Glander KE (1994) Nonhuman primate self-medication with wild plant foods - University of Arizona Press, pp. 239–256.

[7] Huffman, A (2001) 'Self-Medicative Behavior in the African Great Apes: An Evolutionary Perspective into the Origins of Human Traditional Medicine 'BioScience 51(8):651-661. 2001

[8] Huffman MA et al (1994) 'The diversity of medicinal plant use by chimpanzees in the wild.' Chimpanzee Cultures. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, pp. 129–148.

[9] Rodriguez E et al (1993) Zoopharmacog 'The use of medicinal plants by animals. In KR Downum, JT Romeo, and H Stafford' Recent Advances in Phytochemistry, vol. 27: Phytochemical Potential of Tropic Plants. New York: Plenum, pp. 89–105.
So the fact that we have fewer genes than a grain of rice it seems that on the proteomic level the degree of modification following the synthesis of these proteins must be more complex. We think we are more complex than a turnip, but maybe we are not so much. It's not so much about genetics as it is about epigenetics when it comes to defining the difference. It opens the door to other evolutionary mechanisms, it's not just a simple Darwinian picture of natural selection of survival of the fittest, there are all kinds of symbiosis and other catalysts between biological species, and thus the picture becomes far more elaborated because it opens the door to environmental modifications.

There is a very interesting perspective on these matters given in a book called left in the dark which is a theory about neuro-evolution which talks about the environment in which early hominids evolved in, pointing out that it was a mainly arboreal environment in which the diet was mainly fruits very little meat mainly fruits and other plants, and the net effect the constituents in that kind of diet was very high in neurotramsmitter precursors and neurotransmitter type brain chemicals, MAOIs, and essentially the types of chemicals that you find in pineal functions. And the theory is that this environment essentially influenced by the chemical ecology influenced and potentiated pineal functions, and those people had a much more integrated hemispheric level, their culture was not so dominated by the left hemisphere and was more balanced by the right more intuitive and creative side. Which leads to male dominance hierarchies, war mentality, etc.

So essentially what he is proposing is a type of neuro-devolution as opposed to neuro-evolution. That we essentially lost the natural homeostatic balance between our hemispheres over time as our diet changed.

One of the things about evolutionary theory that has always puzzled me is that because of this plant communication system that works throughout the ecosystem, and it works on everything in it that interacts with plants, it just makes sense that secondary products that work usually at the genomic level and various other levels had an influence on evolution in terms of the way we adapted to this chemical environment. Some of them were behavioral and inherited epigenetically, and some of them were genetic. There is a delicate balance between the two, and I think that a great portion of our history as viewed through the usual cultural lens of traditional mechanistic evolutionary theory completely overlooks the behavioral epigenetic traits that our ancestors passed down through previous generations.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:47 pm

Those ape thingies probably got well high bro, and probably ate enough of these mind expanding plants to distinguish them from the normal dietary confined apes so much to the point they likely out bred, out laughed, and linguistically and mentally out maneuvered them into a kind of evolutionary obsolescence.

On a more serious and broader note what the inclusion of psychedelics into our diet did is they broke our rigid behavior patterns that as primates we were evolutionarily stuck in, and forced us to think about our genetic and habitual behaviors in a completely new light. In effect a far more introspective, and higher dimensional perspective, of what we are, what we are doing, and what we could possibly do. It's no co-incidence (if you have been following the other threads I have started on this topic) that magic mushrooms seem to cure obsessive compulsive disorder on the natch.

Well it doesn't take a tremendous leap from that recent evidence to suppose that a substance that cures habitual behaviours could have been a huge catalyst into human creativity and the development of our Prefrontal cortex into art, culture, language, etc, not bound by simple animal instincts.

Anyone else who has tried these things will know what I mean.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:49 pm

Out of interest has anyone here actually tried magic mushrooms? Would be nice to have a point of reference here between two users, rather than it just be me supporting the work and scientific literature I outline in this post.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:34 am

LSD.jpg
zeuzzz wrote:Out of interest has anyone here actually tried magic mushrooms? Would be nice to have a point of reference here between two users, rather than it just be me supporting the work and scientific literature I outline in this post.
Nope. I've taken "blotting paper" LSD (liquid "street' LSD dropped onto tabs), Microdots & Orange Barrels ( Dutch street manufactured LSD pills) and Sandoz manufactured LSD that was used in the 80's by psychiatrists.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:42 am

It's a longish story, but I had a coupla dozen hits of dissolved/liquid window pane absorb into my fingertips and creep up my arms before entering my brain......at about the same time a massive lighting/tornado storm struck the countryside through which a buddy and I were zooming in his Shelby Boss 302 Mustang......woo-hoo! :D

Magic Mushrooms my ass! :roll:
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:04 am

kennyc wrote:Magic Mushrooms my ass
*prepares a psilocybin suppository*

U like?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:11 am

This whole thread should have died ages ago, it's been thoroughly debunked. (See Matthew's first few posts #11, 12, etc) There is no evidence, no support, nothing, other than wishful speculation by drug addled minds.

The evolution of human intelligence and consciousness is well established by standard evolutionary processes. End of story.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:29 am

kennyc wrote:This whole thread should have died ages ago, it's been thoroughly debunked. (See Matthew's first few posts #11, 12, etc) There is no evidence, no support, nothing, other than wishful speculation by drug addled minds.

The evolution of human intelligence and consciousness is well established by standard evolutionary processes. End of story.
Kenny, where is your information for well established by standard evlutionary processes human evolution of consciousness?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:19 pm

Image
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:56 pm

How about if the ancestors took to eating coffee and it got them to work in the morning?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:28 pm

SweetPea wrote:How about if the ancestors took to eating coffee and it got them to work in the morning?
Kaffa
I don't think throwing faeces at your enemies requires much coffee. If anything mushrooms give you diarrhea making this outdated form of communication far harder and likely lead us to develop calculus and mathematics when we realized that throwing poo at each other was not the best way to communicate.

Christ I sound like the guy from the onion. :D

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:34 pm

It's dead Jim.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:43 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
SweetPea wrote:How about if the ancestors took to eating coffee and it got them to work in the morning?
Kaffa
I don't think throwing faeces at your enemies requires much coffee. If anything mushrooms give you diarrhea making this outdated form of communication far harder and likely lead us to develop calculus and mathematics when we realized that throwing poo at each other was not the best way to communicate.
Eating coffee could do that too. We may be on the trail.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:18 pm

Ignoring my sarcastic post above ....
SweetPea wrote: Kenny, where is your information for well established by standard evlutionary processes human evolution of consciousness?
kennyc wrote:It's dead Jim.
Image

I've put quite a lot of text and ideas on the line here in this thread kenny, irrespective of the truthfulness, please reciprocate this.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:23 pm

Kenny is correct. This idea has been thoroughly debunked. It was pure idiocy from the word go.

Evolution simply does not work that way. Take a drug which interferes with cerebral function, and it reduces odds of survival. Counter to evolution.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:31 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Evolution simply does not work that way. Take a drug which interferes with cerebral function, and it reduces odds of survival. Counter to evolution.
Interferes in what type of way? Can you be more exact please.

And how would it reduce odds of survival? I'm all ears.

Also as a side note how do you explain the evolution of art, religion and a sense of awareness and self introspection into our own state of consciousness that seems to far surpass any other animal on earth?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:33 pm

If I wasn't high I wouldn't post this

But I am so I will :D

[ytube][/ytube]

A nice idea. Near impossible to prove. Hard to falsify.

I wrote this article a while back on the matter:
Could mushroom spores act as galactic interstellar DNA transporters? Apparently ... yes!

"Endospores can survive without nutrients. They are resistant to ultraviolet radiation, desiccation, high temperature, extreme freezing and chemical disinfectants. According to scientist Dr. Steinn Sigurdsson, "There are viable bacterial spores that have been found that are 40 million years old on Earth - and we know they're very hardened to radiation"

Strictly speaking these aren't "living organisms", they're more akin to a template of an organism that can become that organism again.

From Microbial World - "Several scientists have been able to recover viable endospores from bees trapped in amber that is 25-40 million years old"

Complex molecules are rather ubiquitous in space. We're not talking a handful of sugar mollecules or some barely-detectable amino acids in a small number of weird sampels--we're talking siginificant quantities of these materials pretty much everywhere we look.

Also we know it happens. I don't mean life coming from outer space; I mean that the way we know that meteors can carry amino acids is that we've found meteors with amino acids in them (and under conditions that prevented contamination). You can actually hold an example of what I'm talking about in your hands if you want to (and can convince the owner to let you). This won't have much impact on modern life, but since it's happening now it's reasonable to conclude it happened in the past (unless someone can demonstrate a mechanism preventing it--this is basic uniformitarianism, and the non-controversial bits at that).

So we know it happens today. We know that the Earth was more or less constantly bombarded with extraterrestrial material for the first few hundred million years. And given how common complex organic mollecules are in space, it'd be much more surprising if there weren't such molecules in the early solar system than if there were. So it's reasonable to conclude that complex molecules came to Earth from extraterrestrial sources at all times, including during its early formation.

The question is, how much of a role did they play? The answer is "Somewhere between none at all and they're the reason we're alive today", and there's not enough data to put it any more firmly than that, far as I know.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 pm

That's more a 'in the back of my mind' notion than one I seriously consider.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Evolution simply does not work that way. Take a drug which interferes with cerebral function, and it reduces odds of survival. Counter to evolution.
That's simplistic claptrap, Lance, whether or not the McKenna stuff is overworked BS.
Evolutionary theory says nothing of what you assert. Of course, you could prove me wrong by producing - something which we both know just is not going to happen.
Do you have another side of your bed to get up from? :)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:49 am

When a person is under the influence of a drug, whether alcohol, cannabis, psilocybin, or LSD, their ability to function is impaired. There is a heap of research data that shows this clearly. I know that drug addled people tend to talk of drugs enhancing perception, but it is not true. Drugs reduce the ability to perceive reality, and they reduce the ability to respond appropriately to hazards. As a result, taking drugs is contrary to survival.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:30 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:When a person is under the influence of a drug, whether alcohol, cannabis, psilocybin, or LSD, their ability to function is impaired. There is a heap of research data that shows this clearly. I know that drug addled people tend to talk of drugs enhancing perception, but it is not true. Drugs reduce the ability to perceive reality, and they reduce the ability to respond appropriately to hazards. As a result, taking drugs is contrary to survival.
I'm amazed you can post this in this very thread without first demolishing some of the facts stated in the actual article this thread is about, which can be viewed here. Where I quite clearly outline numerous potential benefits a species could be conferred by ingesting these substances, not just based on supposition but based on quite recent scientific literature in extremely respected scientific journals. I can re-quote them if you want, but I feel that may be pointless.

In fact I notice a trend throughout this thread of people ignoring* the main points made and focusing on the minutia of the theory as opposed to it's impact as a whole. I've edited the original article numerous times due to the helpful input from people here.

* (apart from Matthew Ellard, who has actually offered one or two very good counterarguments throughout, that still need addressing, and I'm working on that!)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:30 am

The floor is yours now, lance. Lets dance.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:22 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:When a person is under the influence of a drug, whether alcohol, cannabis, psilocybin, or LSD, their ability to function is impaired. There is a heap of research data that shows this clearly. I know that drug addled people tend to talk of drugs enhancing perception, but it is not true. Drugs reduce the ability to perceive reality, and they reduce the ability to respond appropriately to hazards. As a result, taking drugs is contrary to survival.
That's not what your claim was. This is your claim:
Evolution simply does not work that way. Take a drug which interferes with cerebral function, and it reduces odds of survival. Counter to evolution.
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v25/n ... 5754a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Functional magnetic resonance imaging was used to evaluate the effects of oral d-amphetamine on brain activation elicited by auditory and simple motor tasks in ten normal right-handed subjects. We measured the percent signal change and number of voxels activated by a tone discrimination task and a right hand finger-tapping task after 20 mg of d-amphetamine and after placebo. Compared to placebo, amphetamine significantly increased the number of activated voxels in the left and right primary auditory cortices during the tone discrimination task and increased the number of activated voxels in the ipsilateral primary sensorimotor cortex and right middle frontal area during the motor task. Although highly specific vascular effects of drug cannot be ruled out as an explanation, these results could also mean that amphetamine increases the neuronal activity associated with each of these two tasks.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:12 am

Sweet pea.

Drugs can stimulate, sure. But they all have downsides. Amphetamines can kill when over-used. In small doses they can fend off fatigue, but there is a price to pay, which means major problems later.

I am unaware of even one drug that could be called an aid to survival in the wild, for our prehuman ancestors.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:54 am

Coffee.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:58 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Sweet pea.

Drugs can stimulate, sure. But they all have downsides. Amphetamines can kill when over-used. In small doses they can fend off fatigue, but there is a price to pay, which means major problems later.
Lance,
That doesn't deny that your simplistic statement was wrong.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:32 pm

[ytube][/ytube]
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:13 pm

SweetPea wrote:[ytube][/ytube]
It's very hard to separate the corporately funded hype in American media from the scientific facts. Modafinil works. I know it does from experience. But It's certainly not the wonder drug made out in that clip.

Nootropics in general are a fascinating area of research, originally funded to try to help people with neurological degenerative disorders they have pretty much found that some of these racetam drugs also help the day to day functioning of healthy people, in terms of memory and various other functions. But try to get funding for a study on healthy volunteers to definitively prove this, and you will run into major legal hurdles. All we can really do at this point is extrapolate the studies from people with dementia, alzheimers, etc, and hope it works in a similar way on healthy brains. Which we have pretty good reason to assume, pharmacologically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nootropics, also referred to as smart drugs, memory enhancers, neuro enhancers, cognitive enhancers, and intelligence enhancers, are drugs, supplements, nutraceuticals, and functional foods that purportedly improve mental functions such as cognition, memory, intelligence, motivation, attention, and concentration.[1][2] The word nootropic was coined in 1972 by the Romanian Dr. Corneliu E. Giurgea,[3][4] derived from the Greek words νους nous, or "mind," and τρέπειν trepein meaning "to bend/turn". Nootropics are thought to work by altering the availability of the brain's supply of neurochemicals (neurotransmitters, enzymes, and hormones), by improving the brain's oxygen supply, or by stimulating nerve growth.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:34 am

Basically Lance was wrong. Unless he can now prove otherwise.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:50 am

"Psilocybin and psilocin can produce muscle relaxation or weakness, ataxia, excessive pupil dilation, nausea, stomach pain, vomiting, and drowsiness. Individuals who use psilocybin mushrooms also risk poisoning if one of the many existing varieties of poisonous mushrooms is incorrectly identified as a psilocybin mushroom. Beyond this, panic reactions and psychosis also may occur, particularly if a user ingests a large dose. Long-term effects such as Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) have been described in case reports."

Side effects of psilocybin are shown in the quote above. Basically, we have a drug, that affects the human brain in such a way as to induce a false perception of reality. Sometimes those hallucinations can be long term. However, anything that takes away a clear cut idea of what is real is counter to survival. Thus, peoples who take it, are less likely, not more, to survive.

A primitive pre-human who sees a lion as a beautiful admixture of colours is lion food.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Flash » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
I am unaware of even one drug that could be called an aid to survival in the wild, for our prehuman ancestors.
All these really well fermented berries...alcohol.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:46 am

Flash wrote:Lance Kennedy wrote:
I am unaware of even one drug that could be called an aid to survival in the wild, for our prehuman ancestors.
All these really well fermented berries...alcohol.
Ah, so that's how the lions got their fill. :-P
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:34 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Basically, we have a drug, that affects the human brain in such a way as to induce a false perception of reality. Sometimes those hallucinations can be long term. However, anything that takes away a clear cut idea of what is real is counter to survival. Thus, peoples who take it, are less likely, not more, to survive.

A primitive pre-human who sees a lion as a beautiful admixture of colours is lion food.
Does not help you out of your previous simplistic over-statement.

Also, isn't a lion a beautiful creature? isn't it recognized that predators play a role in keeping populations healthy, by weeding out those who fall victim most easily? The overly simplistic view is that survival is good, but natural selection operates to improve stock through removal, Lance!
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:48 pm

And extinction comes from accelerating the removal process. Your illogic does not work, Sweet pea.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:06 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:And extinction comes from accelerating the removal process. .
Reference for that assertion, Lance. You can't. You just made it up. It's more of your overly simplistic stuff...but it's getting to be complete nonsense as you dig yourself deeper.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;