Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:58 am

:lol:


But as so often, I still prefer "different". It seems less judgmental.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:10 am

[ytube][/ytube]
This is something I didn't know about.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:28 am

8-) Same here. Thanks for sharing that.


But "keeping them as pets" is such a human notion. Maybe they regard them more as adopted friends and family. Besides their function as guards.


:scratch: Utility. Animal's animal husbandry... even insects do that.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:13 pm

I'd like to find out more about this. Do the baboons play any role in the "captive" dog matings ( e.g. driving off receptive "wild" females") or subsequent puppy raising? Do they ever nurse puppies?

Why do they steal puppies? Don't the dogs they have breed enough? High mortality rate of "captive" guard dogs? Defections ?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:44 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:...
But "keeping them as pets" is such a human notion. Maybe they regard them more as adopted friends and family. Besides their function as guards.


:scratch: Utility. Animal's animal husbandry... even insects do that.
You're way underestimating the baboons' sophistication, eggs. Check @ 2:18.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:43 pm

The female dog at 2:18 wears a collar.

I have been wondering if that baboon actually kidnapped the pup, or just retrieved it/played with it. Maybe they just live peacefully together somehow in that region. Looking for more info, I found this.






(It's the teeth. :-P )
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:00 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:The female dog at 2:18 wears a collar.

I have been wondering if that baboon actually kidnapped the pup, or just retrieved it/played with it. Maybe they just live peacefully together somehow in that region. Looking for more info, I found this.






(It's the teeth. :-P )
If it was kidnapped as a pup the collar would have strangled it by the time it grew up. That dog chose to live there. Maybe the baboons are friendlier than the wild dogs.

There's no video footage of pups growing up and being tended by baboons, it seems.
Last edited by SweetPea on Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:05 pm

I think there were quite a few females but no footage of a female dog nursing a baboon. But dogs have been witnessed adopting/nursing different animals, such as kittens. Makes one wonder if they'd do that there, too.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:10 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I think there were quite a few females but no footage of a female dog nursing a baboon. But dogs have been witnessed adopting/nursing different animals, such as kittens. Makes one wonder if they'd do that there, too.
Oh yeah...baboons take in orphaned puppy, puppy grows up and takes in orphaned lion cub...
a) baboons open game farm, but it's closed down due to permit problems
b) baboons grow their dog and lion contingent and go hunting
c) during hunt on the savannah, they notice curious fungi...
d) permit problems straightened out
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:23 pm

Until I hear different, I now tend to think the dogs keep pet baboons. :-P
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:26 pm

Alien dogs. Employing baboon workers. :mrgreen:




Edit: Disclaimer for all the fruit loops out there. This is udder nonsense. There are no such things as baboons or dogs.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:59 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Matthew, A one metre high ape that is still only half adapted to life away from the trees will not run terribly fast. I doubt that a look out and a willingness to run is the answer.
I don't think "establishing a lookout" is a conscious decision for a pride of lions either. Apes already have "lookouts" like other scavengers. It is quite common.
look outs.jpg
As for running, well that's the whole point. Chimpanzees "run like buggery" and are not bi-pedal. It would seem odd to say that the bi pedal Australopithecus would not run, when that's exactly the advantage he evolved. I don't think they put up a "fight" as a lion would still weigh 180 kilos compared to an Australopithecus at 45 kilos. A modern human sits at around 80 kilos. The little Australopithecus would make for easy prey in the savanna.[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:49 am

Matthew

I am sure the Australopithecines would 'run like buggery' with a lion bearing down on them. But do you know how fast a lion goes in a charge?** The poor little ape would have no chance.

But if there are 50 of them with clubs and spears, then they would make that lion regret ever disturbing them.







**Measured at 80 kms per hour, or 50 mph.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:16 am

But what about the female hunting pack?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:26 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:But if there are 50 of them with clubs and spears, then they would make that lion regret ever disturbing them.
If there were fifty males in the group they would starve to death. Most apes groups have 10 to 15 members and only one alpha male. I assume ( but don't know) that Australopithecus males and females scavenged together, simply because they couldn't carry anything like berries or fruit.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:29 am

scrmbldggs wrote:But what about the female hunting pack?
I have a problem of using modern "hunter & gatherers" as models for early hominids. How would a tiny ape carry home berries and fruit for all tribal members. I imagine early hominids ate where they found the food. There was no "gathering" at all.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:36 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:But what about the female hunting pack?
I have a problem of using modern "hunter & gatherers" as models for early hominids. How would a tiny ape carry home berries and fruit for all tribal members. I imagine early hominids ate where they found the food. There was no "gathering" at all.
Oops, I meant the lion(s). It seemed like encounter with only one was being discussed.

My bad. I should have quoted.



Edit: This video Pea posted is quite interesting:
[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:05 pm

The likely approach is a loose tribal association, with lookouts. They would pack together for defense only when the lion was seen. Otherwise, they are somewhat scattered, though ready to come together, and as a scattered group gather food.

Ever since I read of the Australopithecines moving onto the savannah, and knowing how small they were, had this image of lions, leopards etc treating them as goods on a supermarket shelf. There had to be a way for them to survive, or else we would not be here.

The article I read suggested they would cooperate for defense. Without weapons, that would just make for a greater abundance of lion food.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:12 pm

Here's an example of the tendency to use overly simplistic reasoning about evolution, that I mention:
It would seem odd to say that the bi pedal Australopithecus would not run, when that's exactly the advantage he evolved.
Advantage over what, Matthew? Certainly not over more powerful and quicker predators. Advantage over similar but quadrupedal apes in sprints on level ground? Does that translate into a real advantage when the sprinting competition is not against quadrupedal apes, but against leopards or lions?

A taller stance for better view might be, but better sprinting? Hardly makes a difference if the advantage is said to be used for running away.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:48 pm

Opposable thumbs, though, is an easy one to paint scenarios about.

As the video shows, chimps attack using sticks.
First, begin able to hold onto the stick for multiple swipes and direct the motion of the stick is a great survival advantage in fending off enemies.
Second, the male which has an opposable thumb is going to be the group leader because he can beat the daylights out of males that are more like chimps. There isn't even one good stick contact with the fake leopard, in the video
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:34 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:But if there are 50 of them with clubs and spears, then they would make that lion regret ever disturbing them.
If there were fifty males in the group they would starve to death. Most apes groups have 10 to 15 members and only one alpha male. I assume ( but don't know) that Australopithecus males and females scavenged together, simply because they couldn't carry anything like berries or fruit.
If they were mushed apes, more males could co-exist :) and be a more productive hunting.scavenging group, even taking on bigger game.
Without mush, the same would apply. more members, better hunting. With few members, they couldn't even make maximum use of a nice big corpse.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:But if there are 50 of them with clubs and spears, then they would make that lion regret ever disturbing them.
If there were fifty males in the group they would starve to death. Most apes groups have 10 to 15 members and only one alpha male. I assume ( but don't know) that Australopithecus males and females scavenged together, simply because they couldn't carry anything like berries or fruit.
Your troop size is off by an order of magnitude., though they will break up into smaller groups for foraging purposes. You are likely correct that the Australopithecines ate where they found food. They could not have carried much, for one, and none of the other apes do differently, so, at least at first, the behaviour would have been inherited.

SweetPea: The chimps don't hit the leopard because they are not trying to, they are trying to intimidate it/scare it off. They can do that from a much safer distance than actually hitting it.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:44 pm

SweetPea: The chimps don't hit the leopard because they are not trying to, they are trying to intimidate it/scare it off. They can do that from a much safer distance than actually hitting it.
How is it that you can tell they are trying to miss, Oleg?
Watch again. We might suppose that naturally they would prefer to always stay at a safer distance and threaten. However, that is not at all what happens.



Somehow they eventually missed missing and the head came off. :)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:32 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:Your troop size is off by an order of magnitude., though they will break up into smaller groups for foraging purposes.
150 Chimps are a breeding community, not a cooperating group in hunting. 150 Chimps did not encounter lions all at once.

"The common chimpanzee lives in groups which range in size from 15 to 150 members"

Cooperative hunting in wild chimpanzees
A model for the evolution of cooperation shows that two conditions are necessary for cooperation to be stable: a hunting success rate that is low for single hunters and increases with group size, and a social mechanism limiting access to meat by non-hunters. Testing this model on Taı̈ chimpanzees, Pan troglodytes, showed that (1) it pays for individuals to hunt in groups of three or four rather than alone or in pairs, and (2) cooperation is stable because hunters gain more at these group sizes than cheaters, owing to a meat-sharing pattern in which hunting, dominance and age, in that order, determine how much an individual gets
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7284712851" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:4) I found the "prehistoric Mushroom art" that is evidence for the claim. Let me use a pun and suggest the claim that these are mushrooms is a bit of a phallusy [/color]
mushroom.gif
Image
Ancient dildos?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:52 pm

I think they were used to darn socks with.
Spoiler:
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Image
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Now Gord's going to have a painful experience next time when he mends his.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:28 pm

SweetPea wrote:Now Gord's going to have a painful experience next time when he mends his.
?

And if I say they were used as pestles, what will you be making of that? (And, please, explain that, too.) :-P
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:39 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
SweetPea wrote:Now Gord's going to have a painful experience next time when he mends his.
?

And if I say they were used as pestles, what will you be making of that? (And, please, explain that, too.) :-P
He grinds a lot. He's subject to bruxism too.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Matthew

A one metre high ape that is still only half adapted to life away from the trees will not run terribly fast. I doubt that a look out and a willingness to run is the answer.
Perhaps not, but there is the selective pressure. Humans are well known to be the best long-distance long-duration runners of all.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:41 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:But what about the female hunting pack?
Like this? http://www.verabradley.com/product/Back ... 001886.uts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:32 pm

:lol:

Nah, more like this
Spoiler:
Image
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:35 pm

SweetPea wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
SweetPea wrote:Now Gord's going to have a painful experience next time when he mends his.
?

And if I say they were used as pestles, what will you be making of that? (And, please, explain that, too.) :-P
He grinds a lot. He's subject to bruxism too.
Thanks.

I often don't "get" such things. And maybe I like and respect Gord too much to even try to figure it out. :-D
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:47 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
SweetPea wrote:Now Gord's going to have a painful experience next time when he mends his.
?

And if I say they were used as pestles, what will you be making of that? (And, please, explain that, too.) :-P
He grinds a lot. He's subject to bruxism too.
Thanks.

I often don't "get" such things. And maybe I like and respect Gord too much to even try to figure it out. :-D
I like Gordy too. But you have to notice things.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:49 pm

scrmbldggs wrote::lol:

Nah, more like this
Spoiler:
Image
Spoiler:
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:36 am

steve24 wrote:A population of homo erectus existed all over Earth. They all slowly evolved into homo sapiens. With the Aborigines retaining more erectus traits.
That's not exactly correct. There have been three different types of Aboriginals in Australia. The second lot killed off the first. The third lot killed off the second. It is only the first lot of aboriginals, who no longer exist, who had "cranial crests" suggesting a stronger genetic link to Erectus.

What's fun is that I was an undergraduate in the late 70's studying this exact question and 30 years later......we still don't know!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittal_keel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


A 150-Year Conundrum: Cranial Robusticity and Its Bearing on the Origin of Aboriginal Australians
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/632484/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:18 pm

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/632484/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Australian palaeoanthropological theory and method continues to be dominated by adaptationist accounts [20] of robusticity and population history. The assumption that the cranium is optimised part by part and that atomising its form into traits assumed to be heritable units, functionally discrete, to have been shaped by natural selection and, therefore, positively associated with reproductive success, remains the core proposition of the field. In the present contribution, it is argued that the failure to fully consider alternative (nonadaptationist) approaches is a major reason why the interrelated issues of firstly, the cause(s) of cranial robusticity and, secondly, its relevance to reconstructing the origins of Aboriginal Australians remain unresolved.
Failure by overly-simplistic adaptationist explicating has been evident here, too!
A lesson still not appreciated.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
steve24 wrote:A population of homo erectus existed all over Earth. They all slowly evolved into homo sapiens. With the Aborigines retaining more erectus traits.
That's not exactly correct. There have been three different types of Aboriginals in Australia. The second lot killed off the first. The third lot killed off the second. It is only the first lot of aboriginals, who no longer exist, who had "cranial crests" suggesting a stronger genetic link to Erectus.

What's fun is that I was an undergraduate in the late 70's studying this exact question and 30 years later......we still don't know!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittal_keel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


A 150-Year Conundrum: Cranial Robusticity and Its Bearing on the Origin of Aboriginal Australians
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/632484/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:49 pm

To Matthew

Since you obviously know a lot about the aboriginal peoples of Australia, let me throw a question at you. Well, actually, it is a thought I had some time ago.

I read how the aboriginals use 'mosaic burning' as a technique to encourage new grass shoots, and thus attract their prey animals. The book raved on about how this was the aboriginal living in harmony with nature, since those mosaic burnings seem to be good for the ecology.

I had a contrary thought. Since humans have been in Australia for somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 years, it is long enough for minor evolutionary change. It occurred to me that it might not be the aboriginals adapting to nature's needs so much as the plants in Australia adapting to the impact of the aboriginals way of life. If the aboriginals adopt mosaic burning as a regular thing, the plants that can thrive under those conditions become dominant and the vulnerable plants die out. So it appears as if the aboriginals are helping the plant ecology, when all they are doing to changing the ecology to those plants that can tolerate their behaviour.

What do you think?

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JO 753
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by JO 753 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:59 pm

I got a tune for you zeuzzz:
[ytube][/ytube]

XeR IT GOZ! xaNKS, VaNDRPQL!
Last edited by JO 753 on Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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