Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:59 pm

dafydddafydd wrote:
SweetPea wrote: Spelling vs language. Think "texting"
I've spotted the flaw there. We are not texting.
That was a reply to your thoughts, though, which did not pertain only to what is written here. The text spellings are catching on big time. I've diagnosed Jo's problem with his effort.
Jo did not make the spelling simpler and shorter = better to use - and young texters do incorporate some of the same spelling as Jo, but they did make it more convenient and snappy than Jo does.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zyzygy » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:31 am

SweetPea wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:
SweetPea wrote: Spelling vs language. Think "texting"
I've spotted the flaw there. We are not texting.
That was a reply to your thoughts, though, which did not pertain only to what is written here. The text spellings are catching on big time. I've diagnosed Jo's problem with his effort.
Jo did not make the spelling simpler and shorter = better to use - and young texters do incorporate some of the same spelling as Jo, but they did make it more convenient and snappy than Jo does.
Thanks for the explanation.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:10 am

dafydddafydd wrote:
What does that have to do with the topic of this thread? I am skeptical of the the claim that drugs have had a huge effect on the evolution of any species. Terence Mckenna fried his brain with DMT, I don't regard him as an authority on the subject. Did you notice the bit about methodology flaws in the page that you linked to?
LOL

Evidence of Mckenna 'frying his brain' in terms of noticeable effects (oh wait, what's that, nothing?)

Evidence that raising the amount of endogenous DMT in your brain by intaking some from an external source can even cause damage (oh wait, what's that, nothing?)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:15 am

SweetPea wrote: Evolution is not a goal.
Not in the creationist creode, sure, but there are some underlying principles such as greater information with time. And if we are talking about human evolution specifically we are now in the rather unique position of being able to not only pre-empt our future evolution but alter it with our choices today. These are epigenetic changes based on our state of mind and environment rather than genetic changes.

Mckenna gives some views on human evolution here:

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:27 am

donnie wrote:I don't believe in god or think the bible is the word of god just random stories mans frist attempt looking at nature.

The fruit did not make Adam and Eve very wise, but they did realize for the first time that they were not wearing any clothes! They were embarrassed and made themselves skirts of fig leaves.The bible's attempt of looking at evolution/ consciousness. hallucinogenic plants or mushroom could of played apart of it. Made us more conscious.?
The bible pretty much opens with the story of a drug bust, Adam and Eve partake in the tree of knowledge and are banished into the chaos of history, it's interesting to read in genesis why this was, "because they will become as we are". As much as I hate reifying scripture with my own subjective take.

Mckenna discusses this here:

[ytube][/ytube]
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:33 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
SweetPea wrote: Evolution is not a goal.
Not in the creationist creode, sure
It's got nothing to do with Creationism. It's just not a "goal". Extinction happens too, and would be much more likely the more specialized for a niche the species is. Is extinction the goal?
but there are some underlying principles such as greater information with time. And if we are talking about human evolution specifically we are now
Not what was under discussion.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:21 pm

Is this a good representation of what location is being discussed for linkage to the stoned ape hypothesis?

Ethiopia, Kenya to Nigeria?

How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:53 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:A Worldwide Geographical distribution of the Neurotropic Fungi, an analysis and discussion by Gaston Guzman.
http://www.museocivico.rovereto.tn.it/U ... 0&%20C.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(scroll down to page 207 of the book ( not the PDF page no#)

"Fig 19 "Distribution of the neurotropic species of Psilocybe Mushrooms"

It does seem that McKenna's theory has nothing to do with reality concerning hominids in North Africa eating magic mushrooms.
wiki
Biological genera containing psilocybin mushrooms include Copelandia, Galerina, Gymnopilus, Inocybe, Mycena, Panaeolus, Pholiotina, Pluteus, and Psilocybe.
Psilocybin mushrooms are found in the countries in question, according to the Guzman reference
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:04 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:So he resigned due to pressure from religion for whipping up a {!#%@} storm that christian mythology could have been catalyzed by the imagination alone by the ingestion of psychedelic plants,
by using etymology

Our root words are 5,000 year old. How is etymology going to held understand human behaviour 80,000 years ago? You didn't pick up on that flawed logic.
The reference was to religions that date to about that time forward.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:21 pm

A {!#%@} legend, Bill Hicks, reached the same conclusions as Mckenna completely independently.

Brilliant, funny, and relevant video here.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:20 am

zeuzzz wrote:A {!#%@} legend, Bill Hicks, reached the same conclusions as Mckenna completely independently.

Brilliant, funny, and relevant video here.
I admit is it a stand up comedy routine and not a scientific claim, however...

He opens his statement "Why is marijuana against the law? It's natural!" So are arsenic, deadly nightshade and blunt objects. That is not an argument.

He states he thinks that magic mushies were God's gift to our evolution but never goes into the mechanism he believes is doing this.

This brings it back to the same basic problems. McKenna cannot name the mushroom species, cannot place it in "hominid" areas of Africa, can't place any mushroom in the african Savannah in ungulate poo , cannot state which hominid species ate the mushrooms and the human physiological evolution of the larynx does not match his claim. Additionally, I now have gathered lots of 1960s military experiments of soldiers on LSD and their "skills" drop under any level of LSD. ( LSD and other drugs whose acronyms I haven't solved, were considered as chemical weapons on the battlefield to be used against American troops and thus the tests).

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:36 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: the human physiological evolution of the larynx does not match his claim.
Please explain what doesn't match.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:09 am

Enough already guys.

The stoned ape idea is an absolute crackpot idea. It has no credibility in terms of what we know of the mechanisms of evolution. In fact, if evolution was working on apes eating mushrooms and getting stoned, it would work by building an antipathy to mushrooms. A stoned ape is less likely, not more, to survive.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:A {!#%@} legend, Bill Hicks, reached the same conclusions as Mckenna completely independently.

Brilliant, funny, and relevant video here.
I admit is it a stand up comedy routine and not a scientific claim, however...

He opens his statement "Why is marijuana against the law? It's natural!" So are arsenic, deadly nightshade and blunt objects. That is not an argument.

He states he thinks that magic mushies were God's gift to our evolution but never goes into the mechanism he believes is doing this.

This brings it back to the same basic problems. McKenna cannot name the mushroom species, cannot place it in "hominid" areas of Africa, can't place any mushroom in the african Savannah in ungulate poo , cannot state which hominid species ate the mushrooms and the human physiological evolution of the larynx does not match his claim. Additionally, I now have gathered lots of 1960s military experiments of soldiers on LSD and their "skills" drop under any level of LSD. ( LSD and other drugs whose acronyms I haven't solved, were considered as chemical weapons on the battlefield to be used against American troops and thus the tests).
I've got an odd feeling the satirical nature of some of Bills comments as they relate to religion and god have been taken slightly too literally by you ...
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:33 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Enough already guys.

The stoned ape idea is an absolute crackpot idea. It has no credibility in terms of what we know of the mechanisms of evolution. In fact, if evolution was working on apes eating mushrooms and getting stoned, it would work by building an antipathy to mushrooms. A stoned ape is less likely, not more, to survive.
Explain why please. I'm presuming you have read all the evidence I have posted thus far and have a counterargument for them? I can bring them up again if you want.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:41 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Enough already guys.

The stoned ape idea is an absolute crackpot idea. It has no credibility in terms of what we know of the mechanisms of evolution. In fact, if evolution was working on apes eating mushrooms and getting stoned, it would work by building an antipathy to mushrooms. A stoned ape is less likely, not more, to survive.
There are other stoner animals doing it. Most things are not as black and white as all that, Lance. There may be some disadvantages and some advantages.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:49 am

http://m.livescience.com/18067-psychede ... ivity.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a large body of research on the effects of various drugs on human performance, and that includes mental performance. Drugs, including 'magic' mushrooms, do not improve performance. Quite the opposite. They reduce it, and in a primitive society, that makes it less likely for an individual to survive. It is counter to evolution, in that it is weeded out by evolution, rather than added in.

As the reference above shows, psilocybin slows brain activity.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:16 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://m.livescience.com/18067-psychede ... ivity.html

There is a large body of research on the effects of various drugs on human performance, and that includes mental performance. Drugs, including 'magic' mushrooms, do not improve performance. Quite the opposite. They reduce it, and in a primitive society, that makes it less likely for an individual to survive. It is counter to evolution, in that it is weeded out by evolution, rather than added in.

As the reference above shows, psilocybin slows brain activity.
Sorry but you are wrong. I will link to just a few of the news articles here, followed by the hard scientific literature, which is extremely highly referenced by various scientists in recent years. It is quite new research so I can appreciate you may not have known about it yet.


'Magic Mushrooms' Can Improve Psychological Health Long Term
http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/16/m ... z2ZMVQdZux" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Magic Mushrooms Expand the Mind By Dampening Brain Activity
(A new brain-scan study helps explain how psilocybin works — and why it holds promise as a treatment for depression, addiction and post-traumatic stress.)
http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/24/m ... z2ZMVW1l00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance
Psychopharmacology August 2006, Volume 187, Issue 3, pp 268-283
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 006-0457-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mystical-type experiences occasioned by psilocybin mediate the attribution of personal meaning and spiritual significance 14 months later
J Psychopharmacol August 2008 vol. 22 no. 6 621-632
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/22/6/621.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: immediate and persisting dose-related effects
Psychopharmacology, December 2011, Volume 218, Issue 4, pp 649-665
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 011-2358-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mystical experiences occasioned by the hallucinogen psilocybin lead to increases in the personality domain of openness
J Psychopharmacol November 2011 vol. 25 no. 11 1453-1461
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/11/1453.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Press releases:

http://boingboing.net/2012/01/25/shroom ... g+Boing%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Shrooms may open the doors of perception, seriously

New research suggests that taking psilocybin, the hallucinogen in magic mushrooms, may actually lead to a decrease in the amount of blood flow in certain parts of your brain. Scientists at Imperial College London injected subjects with psilocybin and scanned their brains. Turns out, they observed a reduction in neuronal activity and blood flow in core regions of the brain like the thalamus and cingulate cortex. From Science News:

“Decreasing the activity in certain hubs in the network may allow for a more unconstrained conscious experience,” says Matthew Johnson, an experimental psychologist at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore who studies psilocybin and other hallucinogens. “These drugs may lift the filters that are at play in terms of limiting our perception of reality.”

Further work by (Imperial College London) neuropsychopharmacologist David) Nutt’s team showed that the brain hubs responded together, linked by a neural circuit called the default mode network. Some scientists believe this highly interconnected brain superhighway is essential for maintaining a person’s sense of self.

Putting the brakes on this network could help to treat certain psychological conditions by opening the brain to new ways of thinking, researchers hope. Several studies have shown that psilocybin can change people’s attitudes for the better and may be useful for treating depression, a condition linked to too much activity in the default mode network.

“Chemically switching off might have very profound beneficial effects,” says Nutt, who suspects that psilocybin could also be useful for treating obsessive-compulsive disorder. “It may help people completely locked into a mindset that drives their lives.”
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Psychiatry/ ... atry/28788" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Magic Mushroom' Drug May Improve Personality Long Term

Reviewed by Robert Jasmer, MD; Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine, University of California

Many individuals who took a SINGLE dose of psilocybin showed alterations in personality characteristics, largely for the better, that persisted for more than a year.

Note that participants who reported "mystical experiences" during the hallucinogen sessions tended to show increases in the personality dimension known as openness (aesthetic appreciation and sensitivity, imagination, intellectual engagement, and awareness of feelings in themselves and others).

Many individuals who took a single dose of psilocybin -- the active ingredient in what the drug culture calls "magic mushrooms" -- showed alterations in personality characteristics, largely for the better, that persisted for more than a year, a prospective scientific study showed.

Participants who reported "mystical experiences" during the hallucinogen sessions tended to show increases in the personality dimension known as openness, according to Katherine A. MacLean, PhD, and colleagues at Johns Hopkins University.

They found no adverse effects from the drug exposure.

... snip ....
http://www.naturalnews.com/041393_psilo ... z2tbzZ4NZS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
New study shows magic mushrooms repair brain damage caused by extreme trauma

(NaturalNews) A new study by The University of South Florida has found that low doses of the active ingredient in magic mushrooms repairs brain damage caused by extreme trauma, offering renewed hope to millions of sufferers of PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder).

The study confirms previous research by Imperial College London, that psilocybin, a naturally occurring compound present in "shrooms", stimulates new brain cell growth and erases frightening memories. Mice conditioned to fear electric shock when hearing a noise associated with the shock "simply lost their fear", says Dr. Juan Sanchez-Ramos, who co-authored the study. A low dose of psilocybin led them to overcome "fear conditioning" and the freeze response associated with it faster than the group of mice on Ketanserin (a drug that counteracts the receptor that binds psilocybin in the brain) and a control group on saline.

An estimated 5 percent of Americans - more than 13 million people - have PTSD at any given time, according to the PTSD Alliance. The condition more often associated with combat veterans, is twice as likely to develop in women because they tend to experience interpersonal violence (such as domestic violence, rape and abuse) more often than men.

PTSD is not just psychological

Common symptoms, such as hyper-vigilance, memory fragmentation, flashbacks, dissociation, nightmares and fight or flight responses to 'triggers', are generally thought to be psychological and therefore treatable by learning to change thought processes. But new research suggests that they may in fact be the result of long term physiological mutations to the brain.

In the South Florida University study, the mice treated with low doses of psilocybin grew healthy new brain cells and their overactive medial prefrontal cortex regions (common in PTSD sufferers) were restored to normal functionality.

Further independent studies (http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) have shown that the hippocampus part of the brain is damaged by extreme stress and that this is specific to PTSD and not associated with anxiety or panic disorders.

Dr. Sanchez-Ramos acknowledged that there was no way of knowing whether the mice in the experiment experienced altered states of consciousness or hallucinations - commonly experienced with magic mushrooms, but he believed the doses were too low to cause psychoactive effects.

Decriminalisation of psilocybin could help millions
Previous studies have shown that low doses of psilocybin produce no consciousness state altering effects. Administered in the correct amount, psilocybin could therefore be assumed to safely treat PTSD with minimal risk of adverse side effects. Magic mushrooms could help millions recover from the debilitating cycles of fight and flight and other conditioned biological responses caused by extreme trauma, if only they weren't listed as a dangerous Schedule 1 drug with no medical benefits.

Meanwhile, doctors are authorised to dispense powerful, side-effect laden pharmaceutical drugs to army vets and others suffering from the symptoms of PTSD without any evidence that these treatments actually work, according to a major review by the committee of the Institute of Medicine on the topic.

The situation is so bad that an average of 18 American veterans commits suicide every day (http://www.naturalnews.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), linked to the sharp rise in prescription drugs, depression, and other psychological conditions. Safe, natural alternatives to pharmaceuticals such as homeopathic and herbal remedies have been found to alleviate symptoms (http://www.naturalnews.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Meditation has also been shown to reduce high activity levels in the amygdala (the brain's emotional centre) experienced in PTSD sufferers as anxiety, stress and phobias.
http://www.naturalnews.com/040803_psilo ... z2tbxwaT21" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Magic mushrooms and depression: Another promising treatment halted by the war on drugs

(NaturalNews) England is attempting to embark upon the first ever clinical trial to explore the potential positive effects psilocybin-the hallucinogenic ingredient in magic mushrooms-has on depression. However, the trial, despite having the funds to commence, is being halted due to the fact that it is still illegal under federal law. In America, the situation is similar with periodic small studies showing promise, however the iron fist of the law prevents further exploration.

Psilocybin mushrooms grow all over the world and have been used in religious and other rituals for thousands of years. Today, studies have shown that there are improvements in people with depression and obsessive compulsive disorder who have taken psilocybin. Brain scans have shown that the posterior cingulate cortex, a part of the brain that is hyperactive in people with depression, is significantly slowed down under the effects of psilocybin. Furthermore, the effects of the mood on psilocybin have been shown to last up to two weeks after a single treatment. This could be a huge breakthrough for severely depressed people who don't respond to other treatments.

The dangers of psilocybin lie in the ignorance of the user. Major illness or even death can occur by ingesting the wrong type of mushrooms for example. Like other hallucinogenics, the user can also experience a "bad trip" with feelings of paranoia, anxiety, and aggression among others. However the effects of the mushroom last between four to six hours so any unpleasant effects are temporary. The substance is not addictive, and there are no long term side effects known. These negative side effects could be alleviated if taken under the care of a doctor.

Antidepressants, the current treatment for people with depression, have a slew of negative side effects including and not limited to: irritability, flattened emotions, rapid or slow heartbeat, body aches, sexual dysfunction, weight gain, and suicidal thinking or ideation. Antidepressants have gotten their fair share of a bad rap in the media as many a mass shooter has been under their influence. In fact, a fairly recent study has shown that long-term antidepressant use can actually worsen depression and cause other behavioral abnormalities.

It seems so simple: just allow scientists to research psilocybin for the treatment of depression. It is much safer and probably more effective than conventional antidepressants. The problem is that it remains a schedule I narcotic under federal law; it has no medical purpose (just like marijuana) to legal entities.

Psilocybin is just another casualty of the war on drugs backed by Big Pharma. Under the rule of the pharmaceutical industry, natural and safe treatments will remain illegal or bastardized while poisonous pills continue to be disbursed to the population en masse.
If those sources do not satisfy you then I can link to more reputable ones from new scientist or scientific American if you want, these just happen to be the ones I had ready to link to.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:23 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://m.livescience.com/18067-psychede ... ivity.html

There is a large body of research on the effects of various drugs on human performance, and that includes mental performance. Drugs, including 'magic' mushrooms, do not improve performance. Quite the opposite. They reduce it, and in a primitive society, that makes it less likely for an individual to survive. It is counter to evolution, in that it is weeded out by evolution, rather than added in.

As the reference above shows, psilocybin slows brain activity.



Odd that surviving primitive societies use drugs.
War also makes it less likely for an individual to survive, but guess what kind of human survived?
Let's not be too overly simplistic in analysis
Drugs, including 'magic' mushrooms, do not improve performance
Lance Armstrong's pile of records begs to differ
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Drugs, including 'magic' mushrooms, do not improve performance. Quite the opposite. They reduce it, and in a primitive society, that makes it less likely for an individual to survive. It is counter to evolution, in that it is weeded out by evolution, rather than added in.
You are spot on. I actually thought there may be some merit and started digging. I found all those military experiments that support exactly what you say. These experiments were for groups on the battlefield and measured communication, observation, accuracy and reflexes (and other things). Any level of hallucinogenic drugs, for the hunting group, is a disaster.

This is why McKenna never brings these up, or any other hard facts for that matter.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:17 am

zeuzzz wrote: I've got an odd feeling the satirical nature of some of Bills comments as they relate to religion and god have been taken slightly too literally by you ...
It was a stand up comedy routine. There were no "facts" for me to comment on. That's what I said earlier.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:23 am

zeuzzz wrote:Sorry but you are wrong.

If those sources do not satisfy you then I can link to more reputable ones from new scientist or scientific American if you want, these just happen to be the ones I had ready to link to.
Lance is right. Not one of these citations has any relationship to McKenna's claim concerning evolution.

Magic Mushrooms still exist in the wild. Can you name any other species that has taken them to improve group hunting?

Which exact hominid is McKenna claiming underwent McKenna's claim? ( He didn't actually ever say....and said "over a five million year period" which is about twenty different known species who all evolved in different ways. This is another hole in the claim).

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:12 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Any level of hallucinogenic drugs, for the hunting group, is a disaster.
Did you make that up?
wiki
DMT occurs in trace amounts in mammals, including humans, where it putatively functions as a trace amine neurotransmitter/neuromodulator.[8] It is originally derived from the essential amino acid tryptophan and ultimately produced by the enzyme INMT during normal metabolism.
Let's not go off the deep end.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:31 pm

Aw come on, Pea. You know he meant anything above and beyond such. Lets not go off the deep end. :-P
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:37 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Aw come on, Pea. You know he meant anything above and beyond such. Lets not go off the deep end. :-P
It's the same. Poking little holes to try and prove that McKenna got some part wrong (while he gets some parts wrong in so doing) isn't actually addressing the whole idea.

"such" ... What is the such ? Anything beyond the such is going to be a negative in every way and will have no positive aspect? Deep end.
Last edited by SweetPea on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by kennyc » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:40 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Aw come on, Pea. You know he meant anything above and beyond such. Lets not go off the deep end. :-P

It's all due to climate change anyway.....no really....it's what made us what we are....
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:43 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Aw come on, Pea. You know he meant anything above and beyond such. Lets not go off the deep end. :-P
Did he also not mean "a disaster"?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:46 pm

The "such" would be any amount that is/remains at a level which does not impair proper function.

But you are right about the "anything". That is too sweeping a statement.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:52 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:The "such" would be any amount that is/remains at a level which does not impair proper function.

But you are right about the "anything". That is too sweeping a statement.
Function of what?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:06 pm

Teh brain functions. And with that the rest of the machine.

What machine?

My lathe.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:09 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Teh brain functions. And with that the rest of the machine.

What machine?

My lathe.
What is the proper brain function? Is there a proper DMT amount that gives this "proper" brain function?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:14 pm

Apparently so, as it is a neurotransmitter.

But I don't have an in depth knowledge about the details, so I can only say that most of the time, anything out of its natural balance and range (sometimes even to a very small amount) can be detrimental to function and/or health of a body or mind. There's plenty evidence for that.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:58 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Apparently so, as it is a neurotransmitter.

But I don't have an in depth knowledge about the details, so I can only say that most of the time, anything out of its natural balance and range (sometimes even to a very small amount) can be detrimental to function and/or health of a body or mind. There's plenty evidence for that.
"Can be". So it may be or it may not be? Plenty of evidence for may or may not?

Is a soldier in battle in a healthy state of mind?

What about steroid use and amphetamines? Better or worse performance? What about antibiotics when struck with deadly diseases? Bad? Vaccines. Bad ?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:11 pm

A soldier in battle hopefully would be in a state of mind which would be suitable to perform at the required level.

Steroids and amphetamines may affect neurotransmitters but are not neurotransmitters themselves, nor are they the subject of this discussion.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:12 pm

Antibiotics and vaccines are both useful and valuable if used correctly.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:27 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:A soldier in battle hopefully would be in a state of mind which would be suitable to perform at the required level.
And is that a healthy state of mind?
Steroids and amphetamines may affect neurotransmitters but are not neurotransmitters themselves, nor are they the subject of this discussion.
...until you broadened it
anything out of its natural balance
...and you're using "natural" as a stand-in for "good:" or "perfect" or "optimal".
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:35 pm

Yes.

Or no.

Whichever you prefer.

Look, you're out to trip me up, and most likely will succeed. But that doesn't matter to me. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, when I'm right, I'm right, like all of us can be. *shrug*

As for use of any drug, there can be benefits and also setbacks. With most it's both and one has to weigh the evidence and see which is more beneficial, use or abstain.

DMT appears to have a short-lived effect (compared to other psychedelics), but I would not know if an increased amount administered, especially over a longer period of time, may not have detrimental effects in the long run.

But however one looks at it, while high, feet are normally not planted firmly on the ground of reality.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:41 pm

As for soldiers, they are trained to perform a certain way under certain conditions. If that is healthy or unhealthy, you decide.

But, apparently, it was shown that with use of certain drugs (I think it was LSD?), that required performance was impaired or missing.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:15 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Yes.

Or no.

Whichever you prefer.

Look, you're out to trip me up, and most likely will succeed. But that doesn't matter to me. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, when I'm right, I'm right, like all of us can be. *shrug*
If the argument against McKenna is that he overstates or makes unsupportable blanket statements, then it's hardly a good counter to do the same - that's my point.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:20 pm

I don't think I made an unsupportable statement, but point taken.
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