Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:43 am

A-number please reconsider your over-reaction, LC did nothing out of line (as far as I can see) in this thread. And to date I have appreciated both of your posts :) Life is way too short to ignore other people, you might as well either get along or argue to the death :)

All I'm saying is that you will regret ignoring your opponents, as in an odd way, often the people you choose to argue against make you who are.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Austin Harper » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:55 pm

A-number wrote:My humble eyes have seen The Glory of The Lord. And I will be damned if I ever shut up about it!
But you do understand that your personal anecdote is meaningless to everyone else and we don't find it convincing in any way, right?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:30 am

A-number wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
A-number wrote:My humble eyes have seen The Glory of The Lord. And I will be damned if I ever shut up about it!
But you do understand that your personal anecdote is meaningless to everyone else and we don't find it convincing in any way, right?
As far as who is dying to convince who, your compadre is the one who is resorting to name calling...
That sounds a little odd, if not hypocritical coming from you.

From what I've read so far, you are not beyond name calling yourself.


And try as I might, I can't see just exactly where Lance called you anything. :scratch:
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:00 am

Nor did I, except by implication. A-number said he had a direct line from jesus, and heard him. My suggestion was that hearing voices was a sign of schizophrenia, and A-number took umbrage. Perhaps fair enough, but my comment was still absolutely 100% correct.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:39 pm

Soooo ... anyway ... it might be helpful to quote another post of mine here at this point to get the conversation flowing:
zeuzzz wrote:I think that it needs to be always kept in consciousness that to an extent we are plants, and the diet of our ancestors is almost certainly the critical catalyst in propelling our consciousness from our protohominid state to making us as truly human as you or I today.

The paradigm that seems to be emerging is that when it used to be thought of one gene to one enzyme, one gene one protein, and that may be true to an extent, but what actually seems to be important in making these systems so complex is post translational modifications, both internal and external. The proteins are made and come off the ribosome, they may be epigenetically methylated, this is not genomic but this is proteomics. Meaning that one gene may make one protein but that protein may feed into multiple functions, and a single gene is not as simple a picture as it used to be a single gene can make proteins that have multiple functions, and it's at this level that the complexity arises.

Epigenetic alterations are far more flexible than genetic changes, and allow for very rapid yet easily reversible adaptation, so determining which proteins can be turned off, via release of the usual hormones/endorphins/neurochemicals that relate to particular states of mind, is very important.

Epigenetic changes determine which proteins are transcribed. So far theres three systems which intertwine with each other to silence genes: histone modifications (histone proteins that are the primary components of chromatin responsible for forming DNA that makes up chromosomes), RNA-associated silencing and DNA methylation.

I commented on some of these factors on my blog.
"When thinking about diet, plants and drugs culturally we tend to focus on episodes of intoxication, but many drugs are used in sub-threshold or maintenance doses; coffee and tobacco are obvious examples in our culture. The result of this is a kind of 'ambience of intoxication'. Like fish in water, people in culture swim in the virtually invisible medium of culturally sanctioned yet artificial states of mind.



The ways in which humans use plants, foods, and drugs cause the values of individuals and, ultimately, whole societies to shift. The effect of drink culture is all too readily becoming apparent to our health services. Eating some foods makes us happy, eating others sleepy, and still others alert. We are jovial, restless, aroused, or depressed depending on what we have eaten. Society tacitly encourages certain behaviors that correspond to internal feelings, thereby encouraging the use of substances that produce acceptable behaviors with little side effects whilst discouraging destructive compounds.

At Gombe Steam National Park was one of the fist institutions that noticed Apes would tend to even eat food that they did not appear to like the taste of, or were not able to digest very well. Despite previously not enjoying this food, the Apes would still selectively go looking for it [1] Eventually a redish oil was found called Rhiarubrine-A. Neil Towers of British Columbia University soon found out that this oil kills bacteria in their dozens, but just below the significant 10 in a million to make it clinically dangerous. [2]

Thus it seemed that even if the food they learn to eat was unpleasant, if it has a positive effect on it's well being, health or mind in some way, they would tend to continue eating it by self medicating themselves through their choice of food selection from their surrounding natural pharmacy [3][4][5]

Since other animals enjoy psychoactive drugs, like cats love catnip, or monkeys enjoy alcohol they scrounge from humans, it is only natural to expect chimps to also; and numerous studies have found this if they enjoy the medicinal effects they continue to ingest it despite of the taste [5][6] This is sometimes referred to zoopharmacognosy [7][8][9] The basic premise of zoo- pharmacognosy is that animals utilize plant secondary compounds or other non-nutritional substances to medicate themselves. Among primatologists a major focus of concern about plant secondary compounds in the diet has been on how and why pri- mates can cope with their presence "

[1] Huffman, Michael (2007) Current evidence for self-medication in primates: A multidisciplinary perspective - YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 40:171–200

[2] G. H. Neil Towers (1996) 'Leaf-swallowing by chimpanzees: A behavioral adaptation for the control of strongyle nematode infections' - International Journal of Primatology August 1996, Volume 17, Issue 4, pp 475-503

[3] Dale H. Clayton Nathan D. Wolfe (1998) The adaptive significance of self-medication Volume 8, Issue 2, February 1993, Pages 60–63

[4] Andrew Fowler, Yianna Koutsioni, Volker Sommer (2007) Leaf-swallowing in Nigerian chimpanzees: evidence for assumed self-medication January 2007, Volume 48, Issue 1, pp 73-76

[5] Harold Altshuler (1975) 'Intragastric self-administration of psychoactive drugs by the rhesus monkey' Volume 17, Issue 6, 15 September, Life Sciences Pages 883–890

[6] Glander KE (1994) Nonhuman primate self-medication with wild plant foods - University of Arizona Press, pp. 239–256.

[7] Huffman, A (2001) 'Self-Medicative Behavior in the African Great Apes: An Evolutionary Perspective into the Origins of Human Traditional Medicine 'BioScience 51(8):651-661. 2001

[8] Huffman MA et al (1994) 'The diversity of medicinal plant use by chimpanzees in the wild.' Chimpanzee Cultures. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, pp. 129–148.

[9] Rodriguez E et al (1993) Zoopharmacog 'The use of medicinal plants by animals. In KR Downum, JT Romeo, and H Stafford' Recent Advances in Phytochemistry, vol. 27: Phytochemical Potential of Tropic Plants. New York: Plenum, pp. 89–105.
So the fact that we have fewer genes than a grain of rice it seems that on the proteomic level the degree of modification following the synthesis of these proteins must be more complex. We think we are more complex than a turnip, but maybe we are not so much. It's not so much about genetics as it is about epigenetics when it comes to defining the difference. It opens the door to other evolutionary mechanisms, it's not just a simple Darwinian picture of natural selection, the picture becomes far more elaborated because it opens the door to environmental modifications.

There is a very interesting perspective on these matters given in a book called left in the dark which is a theory about neuro-evolution which talks about the environment in which early hominids evolved in, pointing out that it was a mainly arboreal environment in which the diet was mainly fruits very little meat mainly fruits and other plants, and the net effect the constituents in that kind of diet was very high in neurotramsmitter precursors and neurotransmitter type brain chemicals, MAOIs, and essentially the types of chemicals that you find in pineal functions. And the theory is that this environment essentially influenced by the chemical ecology influenced and potentiated pineal functions, and those people had a much more integrated hemispheric level, their culture was not so dominated by the left hemisphere and was more balanced by the right more intuitive and creative side. Which leads to male dominance hierarchies, war mentality, etc.

So essentially what he is proposing is not a type of neuro-devolution as opposed to neuro-evolution. That we essentially lost the natural homeostatic balance between our hemispheres over time as our diet changed.

One of the things about evolutionary theory that has always puzzled me is that because of this plant communication system that works throughout the ecosystem, and it works on everything in it that interacts with plants, it just makes sense that secondary products that work usually at the genomic level and various other levels had an influence on evolution in terms of the way we adapted to this chemical environment. Some of them were behavioral and inherited epigenetically, and some of them were genetic. There is a delicate balance between the two, and I think that a great portion of our history as viewed through the usual cultural lens of traditional mechanistic evolutionary theory completely overlooks the behavioral epigenetic traits that our ancestors passed down through previous generations.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:04 am

I went a different route and looked at research on the use of LSD and BZ in battlefield conditions as this may offer indications of hominid behaviour when hunting on Magic mushrooms. Firstly, it seems that there is a problem in individuals taking hallucinogenics when the rest of the team is straight. This suggests no behavioural differences for the breeding group and thus no contribution to evolutionary change.

"It has been found for example that drugged soldiers may behave in an apparently normal way if there are undrugged soldiers in their unit."

Secondly, the soldier's aiming, reaction times and discerning targets dropped off remarkably ( mostly shown through graphs). This suggests to me that the use of hallucinogenics is a strong disadvantage to resource gathering and therefore of no evolutionary advantage at all. In fact it is an obstacle for breeding as Alpha males fight to retain sexual dominance.

"Military Uses and Abuses of Psychology" / Peter Watson
US Army Edgewood Arsenal (Maryland) "Problems of measuring performance of Incapacitated troops" 1965-1967 ( No author cited)

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:06 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:I went a different route and looked at research on the use of LSD and BZ in battlefield conditions as this may offer indications of hominid behaviour when hunting on Magic mushrooms. Firstly, it seems that there is a problem in individuals taking hallucinogenics when the rest of the team is straight. This suggests no behavioural differences for the breeding group and thus no contribution to evolutionary change.

"It has been found for example that drugged soldiers may behave in an apparently normal way if there are undrugged soldiers in their unit."

Secondly, the soldier's aiming, reaction times and discerning targets dropped off remarkably ( mostly shown through graphs). This suggests to me that the use of hallucinogenics is a strong disadvantage to resource gathering and therefore of no evolutionary advantage at all. In fact it is an obstacle for breeding as Alpha males fight to retain sexual dominance.

"Military Uses and Abuses of Psychology" / Peter Watson
US Army Edgewood Arsenal (Maryland) "Problems of measuring performance of Incapacitated troops" 1965-1967 ( No author cited)
Reminds me of this, hilarious :)

[ytube][/ytube]

Of course LSD is very different in effects to psilocybin, and of course high dosages of any hallucinogen would render any type of hunting out of the question, being nailed to the ground in hallucinogenic ecstasy is not going to be very productive for this means. The hunting advantage would only be conferred in threshold dosages as apes foraged for various foods.

Found out the other day that the second most intelligent animal on the planet, dolphins, use puffer fish to get high: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not really evidence in favor as so do many other animals like reindeer and cats ... of course a bad selection of substance to get high on (a toxic one or a heavily sedating one) would probably render a user group a devolutionary effect, whereas a group of a species that find one with overall benefits (whether hunting, reproductive, social, etc) would gain an advantage over other members of the species and eventually would start to out breed, outlive and dominate over other members that did not.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:53 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Of course LSD is very different in effects to psilocybin, and of course high dosages of any hallucinogen would render any type of hunting out of the question, being nailed to the ground in hallucinogenic ecstasy is not going to be very productive for this means. The hunting advantage would only be conferred in threshold dosages as apes foraged for various foods.
Walk me slowly through these claims.

How exactly does taking threshold doses of psilocybin assist hunting when all the hard evidence says it does exactly the opposite?

How does a hominid measure a threshold dose?

If there are no psilocybin mushrooms in the African savanna then where did the psilocybin mushrooms come from?


Apes currently eat hallucinogens and stimulants ( Kola tree, Alchornea floribunda ) but these cause detrimental changes in behaviour which is exactly the opposite to McKenna's claim. Why didn't McKenna ever introduce or use real scientific research papers to assess the validity of his claim?

Prof Michael Huffman of the Primate Research Institute, Kyoto University :"local people claim to have discovered the intoxicating effects of the plant by watching animals, including gorillas, go into a frenzy of fear, as if being chased by invisible objects, after eating the roots".

Here is video footage of monkeys on LSD in 1968.
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... ive-gloves" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:41 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Of course LSD is very different in effects to psilocybin, and of course high dosages of any hallucinogen would render any type of hunting out of the question, being nailed to the ground in hallucinogenic ecstasy is not going to be very productive for this means. The hunting advantage would only be conferred in threshold dosages as apes foraged for various foods.
Walk me slowly through these claims.

How exactly does taking threshold doses of psilocybin assist hunting when all the hard evidence says it does exactly the opposite?

How does a hominid measure a threshold dose?

If there are no psilocybin mushrooms in the African savanna then where did the psilocybin mushrooms come from?


Apes currently eat hallucinogens and stimulants ( Kola tree, Alchornea floribunda ) but these cause detrimental changes in behaviour which is exactly the opposite to McKenna's claim. Why didn't McKenna ever introduce or use real scientific research papers to assess the validity of his claim?

Prof Michael Huffman of the Primate Research Institute, Kyoto University :"local people claim to have discovered the intoxicating effects of the plant by watching animals, including gorillas, go into a frenzy of fear, as if being chased by invisible objects, after eating the roots".

Here is video footage of monkeys on LSD in 1968.
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... ive-gloves" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jesus Christ! How much did they give that monkey in mg/kg? He looks terrified.

I would be interested in the 'hard evidence' that it does exactly the opposite. We are talking threshold dosages here. You only have to try even marginal dosages of psilocybin to know that the first main effect is that all colors become more distinct from others, all edge's of nearby things become sharper and clearer, even in your peripheral vision. Of course going anything above a sub recreational dose will render these effects negligible as you start seeing things that are not physically there, the dosage window to these effects is rather small but still there none-the-less.

A hominid would not have to measure an effective dose, I expect they would dose too much at first, but eventually find a nice equilibrium between (x) mushrooms eaten and (x) effects on various beneficial functions. Whether daily, weekly, monthly or yearly ... as my previous links have shown you don't have to take them daily to keep the long term effects for many months after in terms of long term perspective.

Also the full on (x*10) effects of a full blown experience likely sparked not only spiritual experiences in our ancestors but most of the original art and abstractions (look at where the most original art comes from in this day and age, 95% from people using hallucinogens) that lead to culture and different ways of habitual creatures to think.

All very well (if you have no morals) giving an animal an overdose and scaring the crap out of them ({!#%@} awful) than giving them the actually recommended dose in terms of mg/kg. If you have the data from what you linked to then please share it, otherwise it's no more than scare tactics.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:37 pm

zeuzzz wrote:I would be interested in the 'hard evidence' that it does exactly the opposite.
I offered a citation to the various experiments above. The use of any amount of hallucinogens is detrimental to the performance of humans when hunting and undertaking tasks. There is no McKenna study or experiment to compare to.

Objectively, we have to go where the evidence takes us and McKenna has failed on all fronts. He had no experimental data to support his theory, he can't nominate the species of mushroom in his theory, he can't place any hallucinogenic mushroom in the African savanna, he is unable to state which actual hominid underwent his pet theory, the evolution of the larynx does not match his claim, he can't explain how a hominid would measure a correct dose of psilocybin yet will eat the entire mushroom because the hominid is hungry, he ignores all the other validated evolutionary changes going on and so on.

To be frank McKenna's theory makes no sense at all and it doesn't match the evidence.


zeuzzz wrote:We are talking threshold dosages here.
How exactly is an Australopithecus going to measure a threshold dose while eating a pile of mushrooms with his mates. Exactly how much potassium was in the last hamburger you ate? See what I mean?
zeuzzz wrote: (look at where the most original art comes from in this day and age, 95% from people using hallucinogens)
That is absolute crap! Go to Indonesia, Iran, China, Russia and tell all their artists that 95% of them take hallucinogens because an American "said so".

You do know that none of the Surrealists took hallucinogens? Dali, “I don’t use drugs. I am drugs,”

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Dali, “I don’t use drugs. I am drugs,”[/color]
Fruity quote :) http://puttingtheeinjref.blogspot.co.uk ... drugs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I plucked the 95% bit out of my derriere, my bad. Just the trend that I see in my various facebook / twitter associations in terms of modern art really are all psychedelic based artwork ... probably just my social circle.

Image

This just went viral for me and my friends and the artist claimed it was created after a DMT trip ... and Alex Grey images have followed an exponential google trend curve for the last five years. I'm probably inhibiting my artistic horizons by focusing on subjective cases however.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:59 pm

JO 753 wrote:It seemz like wun uv thoze inspired little speculationz that make sense long enuf to merit further investigation, but usually fall apart frum lack uv evidence or frum accumulating contradictory evidence.

I like the basic idea. Most people are cement hedz, so sumthing that can at least temporarally suspend the karakteristic coud hav allowed the shroom imbiber to invent sumthing that started us on the path to sivilization, and knowing it wuz the shroomz that helped him, he coud hav continued and spred the newz to hiz palz.

But there are big problemz with the idea. Mainly, why not any uv the other animalz that ate the shroomz? And why didnt it happen duzenz uv timez befor over the millionz uv yirz that creaturez hav been munching on sikoaktiv plants? Certainly there must hav been countless speciez uv dinosourz gobbling all sorts uv loco weedz. Even if its a freak combination uv jenetic effect, pre-existing condition, and environmental circumstance, its still a long shot that it woudnt hav happened alredy.
“Only Homo sapiens have a knowledge base that itself grows exponentially, and is passed down from one generation to another.”
Duble balony. 1. Assumez other animalz are not communicating. 2. Its not a part uv our nature, its a rezult uv: at minimum a stable and extensiv spoken language, but that only gets you so far (at our averaj intellejens level), so also a durable visual record.
Are the misspellings deliberate?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by zeuzzz » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:13 am

dafydddafydd wrote:Are the misspellings deliberate?
Joe is creating a new dictionary/language ... or something ... I've forgotten the details, the webpage explaining it didn't grab my attention for long enough. I'm sure if he pops up again he will explain.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:11 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: He is making up this story as he goes.
Was making up the story. He's been dead for a while.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:25 pm

The fruit did not make Adam and Eve very wise, but they did realize for the first time that they were not wearing any clothes! They were embarrassed and made themselves skirts of fig leaves.The bible's attempt of looking at evolution. hallucinogenic plants or mushroom could of played apart of it.


God punished Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, by making their lives hard. No longer could they live in the perfect world of the Garden of Eden. Men would have to struggle and sweat for their existence. Women would have to bear children in pain and be ruled over by their husbands. Adam and Eve were thrown out of the beautiful Garden of Eden forever.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:32 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:Are the misspellings deliberate?
Joe is creating a new dictionary/language ... or something ... I've forgotten the details, the webpage explaining it didn't grab my attention for long enough. I'm sure if he pops up again he will explain.
It won't catch on. It just gives the impression of not paying enough attention at school.
Last edited by dafydddafydd on Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:32 pm

donnie wrote:The fruit did not make Adam and Eve very wise, but they did realize for the first time that they were not wearing any clothes! They were embarrassed and made themselves skirts of fig leaves.The bible's attempt of looking at evolution. hallucinogenic plants or mushroom could of played apart of it.


God punished Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, by making their lives hard. No longer could they live in the perfect world of the Garden of Eden. Men would have to struggle and sweat for their existence. Women would have to bear children in pain and be ruled over by their husbands. Adam and Eve were thrown out of the beautiful Garden of Eden forever.
Not a word of that is true though.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:50 pm

I know but its trying to tell a story about evolution and becoming self aware. I think what's that's about. Eating some hallucinogen could of played apart.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:54 pm

donnie wrote:I know but its trying to tell a story about evolution and becoming self aware. I think what's that's about. Eating some hallucinogen could of played apart.
I doubt if being high on a hallucinogen could prove an evolutionary advantage. I didn't notice any hippies evolving back in the 1960's.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:00 pm

dafydddafydd wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:Are the misspellings deliberate?
Joe is creating a new dictionary/language ... or something ... I've forgotten the details, the webpage explaining it didn't grab my attention for long enough. I'm sure if he pops up again he will explain.
It won't catch on. It just gives the impression of not paying enough attention at school.
JO rarely posts in nooalf. He merely spells creatively most of the time. Real nooalf looks like monkeys typing.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:12 pm

What does a dolphin use to get high? A toxic puffer fish that makes them lapse into a trance-like state
The footage features in TV series Dolphins: Spy in the Pod
Series uses several cameras disguised as sea creatures to film dolphins
The mammals were filmed in a trance-like state after eating puffer fish
In an extraordinary scene filmed for a new TV series, the dolphins are shown gently passing the fish between them. Experts believe the creatures are using the toxins, which emerge from the puffer fish as part of its defence mechanism, for their own enjoyment.




They nudge the fish with their snouts and as the toxin is released into the water, they seem to lapse into a trance-like state.

At one point the dolphins are seen floating just underneath the water's surface, apparently mesmerised by their own reflections.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :P

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:34 pm

donnie wrote:What does a dolphin use to get high? A toxic puffer fish that makes them lapse into a trance-like state
The footage features in TV series Dolphins: Spy in the Pod
Series uses several cameras disguised as sea creatures to film dolphins
The mammals were filmed in a trance-like state after eating puffer fish
In an extraordinary scene filmed for a new TV series, the dolphins are shown gently passing the fish between them. Experts believe the creatures are using the toxins, which emerge from the puffer fish as part of its defence mechanism, for their own enjoyment.




They nudge the fish with their snouts and as the toxin is released into the water, they seem to lapse into a trance-like state.

At one point the dolphins are seen floating just underneath the water's surface, apparently mesmerised by their own reflections.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :P

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And how does that help with their evolution?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:36 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:Are the misspellings deliberate?
Joe is creating a new dictionary/language ... or something ... I've forgotten the details, the webpage explaining it didn't grab my attention for long enough. I'm sure if he pops up again he will explain.
It won't catch on. It just gives the impression of not paying enough attention at school.
JO rarely posts in nooalf. He merely spells creatively most of the time. Real nooalf looks like monkeys typing.
Languages evolve. Created languages like Esperanto and Volapuk never really catch on. If he wants to look ill-educated then let him carry on.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:41 pm

dafydddafydd wrote:
donnie wrote:What does a dolphin use to get high? A toxic puffer fish that makes them lapse into a trance-like state
The footage features in TV series Dolphins: Spy in the Pod
Series uses several cameras disguised as sea creatures to film dolphins
The mammals were filmed in a trance-like state after eating puffer fish
In an extraordinary scene filmed for a new TV series, the dolphins are shown gently passing the fish between them. Experts believe the creatures are using the toxins, which emerge from the puffer fish as part of its defence mechanism, for their own enjoyment.




They nudge the fish with their snouts and as the toxin is released into the water, they seem to lapse into a trance-like state.

At one point the dolphins are seen floating just underneath the water's surface, apparently mesmerised by their own reflections.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :P

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And how does that help with their evolution?
Evolution is not a goal.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:58 pm

dafydddafydd wrote:
donnie wrote:What does a dolphin use to get high? A toxic puffer fish that makes them lapse into a trance-like state
The footage features in TV series Dolphins: Spy in the Pod
Series uses several cameras disguised as sea creatures to film dolphins
The mammals were filmed in a trance-like state after eating puffer fish
In an extraordinary scene filmed for a new TV series, the dolphins are shown gently passing the fish between them. Experts believe the creatures are using the toxins, which emerge from the puffer fish as part of its defence mechanism, for their own enjoyment.




They nudge the fish with their snouts and as the toxin is released into the water, they seem to lapse into a trance-like state.

At one point the dolphins are seen floating just underneath the water's surface, apparently mesmerised by their own reflections.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :P

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2seK7q9HV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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And how does that help with their evolution?
It's don't. Dolphins don't have arm's :frown: but dose chance there consciousness. There are 9 Animals that pass the mirror test.
Guess what.? dolphins pass.
What is self-awareness? It's described in the Oxford English Dictionary as "conscious knowledge of one’s own character, feelings, motives, and desires". Essentially it's a measure of intelligence. There are only a handful of creatures in the animal kingdom that are self-aware, as it requires a great deal of intellect.

The most common testing method for self-awareness in animals is the mirror test. A coloured dot is placed on the animal in a location they wouldn't normally be able to see (such as between their eyes or on their nose). The animal is then given a mirror, and if they realize that the dot is on their own face and then try to remove it, it shows that the animal is aware that the reflection is of themselves. Animals that fail the mirror test often just play or attack their reflection, you've probably seen your cat or dog do this.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:01 pm

SweetPea wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:
donnie wrote:What does a dolphin use to get high? A toxic puffer fish that makes them lapse into a trance-like state
The footage features in TV series Dolphins: Spy in the Pod
Series uses several cameras disguised as sea creatures to film dolphins
The mammals were filmed in a trance-like state after eating puffer fish
In an extraordinary scene filmed for a new TV series, the dolphins are shown gently passing the fish between them. Experts believe the creatures are using the toxins, which emerge from the puffer fish as part of its defence mechanism, for their own enjoyment.




They nudge the fish with their snouts and as the toxin is released into the water, they seem to lapse into a trance-like state.

At one point the dolphins are seen floating just underneath the water's surface, apparently mesmerised by their own reflections.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :P

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2seK7q9HV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
And how does that help with their evolution?
Evolution is not a goal.
Agreed. I didn't express myself well. I should have asked what evolutionary advantage do the dolphins gain by using a recreational drug? Some Japanese people eat fugu, and all traces of the toxin cannot be removed and the eaters get a buzz from the fish. What evolutionary advantage does this confer?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:03 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_tes ... of_passing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:09 pm

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread? I am skeptical of the the claim that drugs have had a huge effect on the evolution of any species. Terence Mckenna fried his brain with DMT, I don't regard him as an authority on the subject. Did you notice the bit about methodology flaws in the page that you linked to?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:14 pm

I don't believe in god or think the bible is the word of god just random stories mans frist attempt looking at nature.

The fruit did not make Adam and Eve very wise, but they did realize for the first time that they were not wearing any clothes! They were embarrassed and made themselves skirts of fig leaves.The bible's attempt of looking at evolution/ consciousness. hallucinogenic plants or mushroom could of played apart of it. Made us more conscious.?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:21 pm

donnie wrote:I don't believe in god or think the bible is the word of god just random stories mans frist attempt looking at nature.

The fruit did not make Adam and Eve very wise, but they did realize for the first time that they were not wearing any clothes! They were embarrassed and made themselves skirts of fig leaves.The bible's attempt of looking at evolution/ consciousness. hallucinogenic plants or mushroom could of played apart of it. Made us more conscious.?
Could you provide me with some quotes from the Bible on this matter please? I've read it twice and I can recall no mention of the subject.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:22 pm

dafydddafydd wrote:
SweetPea wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:
donnie wrote:What does a dolphin use to get high? A toxic puffer fish that makes them lapse into a trance-like state
The footage features in TV series Dolphins: Spy in the Pod
Series uses several cameras disguised as sea creatures to film dolphins
The mammals were filmed in a trance-like state after eating puffer fish
In an extraordinary scene filmed for a new TV series, the dolphins are shown gently passing the fish between them. Experts believe the creatures are using the toxins, which emerge from the puffer fish as part of its defence mechanism, for their own enjoyment.




They nudge the fish with their snouts and as the toxin is released into the water, they seem to lapse into a trance-like state.

At one point the dolphins are seen floating just underneath the water's surface, apparently mesmerised by their own reflections.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :P

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... z2seK7q9HV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
And how does that help with their evolution?
Evolution is not a goal.
Agreed. I didn't express myself well. I should have asked what evolutionary advantage do the dolphins gain by using a recreational drug? Some Japanese people eat fugu, and all traces of the toxin cannot be removed and the eaters get a buzz from the fish. What evolutionary advantage does this confer?
I don't know, for either beneficial or detrimental effects. I imagine that if it makes a difference in sexual excitation or on perceptions then it could have some effect on mating behaviours.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Poodle » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:26 pm

donnie wrote:... hallucinogenic plants or mushroom could of played apart of it. Made us more conscious.?
Using the apparently random targeting displayed in your posts, snow could equally have played a part. Or liver. Or dandelion root. Or (insert preferred option).

"Could have" (or "could of" as you insist on putting it) is meaningless, and usually pointless.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:28 pm

dafydddafydd wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:
dafydddafydd wrote:Are the misspellings deliberate?
Joe is creating a new dictionary/language ... or something ... I've forgotten the details, the webpage explaining it didn't grab my attention for long enough. I'm sure if he pops up again he will explain.
It won't catch on. It just gives the impression of not paying enough attention at school.
JO rarely posts in nooalf. He merely spells creatively most of the time. Real nooalf looks like monkeys typing.
Languages evolve. Created languages like Esperanto and Volapuk never really catch on. If he wants to look ill-educated then let him carry on.
Spelling vs language. Think "texting"
Last edited by SweetPea on Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by donnie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:31 pm

Drugs change our consciousness fact. In the70's look how everybody was dressing the colour ers. Triping

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by Poodle » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:39 pm

Triping - yes, I agree.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:46 pm

i have no stomach for it
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:52 pm

No guts, no glory
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:05 pm

don't vent your spleen. it's a sign of unmitigated gall.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by SweetPea » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:08 pm

or in canada, unmitigated gaul.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Post by dafydddafydd » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:41 pm

SweetPea wrote: Spelling vs language. Think "texting"
I've spotted the flaw there. We are not texting.