Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:16 am

zeuzzz wrote:I should thank you however (Matt), the article I am writing would never have taken the trajectory it has without your argumentative and skeptical input in this thread, no matter how impossible you are at times.

Do you think you've benefited from this internet argument y'all have had?

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:49 am

Monster wrote: Do you think you've benefited from this internet argument y'all have had?

It forced me to check my own knowledge and additionally forced me to read about and understand epigenetics. Therefore it was worth it.

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Monster wrote: Do you think you've benefited from this internet argument y'all have had?
It forced me to check my own knowledge and additionally forced me to read about and understand epigenetics. Therefore it was worth it.

Well, that's good.

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:10 am

Monster wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:I should thank you however (Matt), the article I am writing would never have taken the trajectory it has without your argumentative and skeptical input in this thread, no matter how impossible you are at times.
Do you think you've benefited from this internet argument y'all have had?

Yeah it's been great, helped me focus on the issues for my writeup rather than just spouting more of Terences talking points on this issue. Though other forums have been far more helpful and less reactionary than a certain someone has been here, this thread has in no way been a waste of time. Even if the to layman reading it it might have often seemed like that.

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:18 am

Sam Harris is a fan.

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/ ... ng-of-life
"Terence McKenna is one person I regret not getting to know. Unfortunately, he died from brain cancer in 2000, at the age of 53. His books are well worth reading, and I have recommended several below, but he was, above all, an amazing speaker. It is true that his eloquence often led him to adopt positions which can only be described (charitably) as “wacky,” but the man was undeniably brilliant and always worth listening to."

Professor David Nutt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt has also recently referenced the 'stoned ape theory' in a speech. I get the impression from the trajectory of his psilocybin research that he is building up to writing some papers with definate 'stone ape hypothesis' type overtones in the near future. Him and Dr carhart harris. http://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/r.carhart-harris

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:57 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Monster wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:I should thank you however (Matt), the article I am writing would never have taken the trajectory it has without your argumentative and skeptical input in this thread, no matter how impossible you are at times.
Do you think you've benefited from this internet argument y'all have had?
Yeah it's been great, helped me focus on the issues for my writeup rather than just spouting more of Terences talking points on this issue. Though other forums have been far more helpful and less reactionary than a certain someone has been here, this thread has in no way been a waste of time. Even if the to layman reading it it might have often seemed like that.

That sounds great then.

Olle · Post by **Olle** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:58 am

Where will your article be published, zeuzzz? I'd like to read it.

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:12 pm

Olle wrote:Where will your article be published, zeuzzz? I'd like to read it.

Our zeussy is always in the process of writing something. I'm not too sure that anything ever comes of it except, maybe, a YouTube video or two.

scrmbldggs · Post by **scrmbldggs** » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:02 pm

A belated "Hi", Olle. How nice of you to join us. How's good old Bullerbyn these days?

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:25 am

Olle wrote:Where will your article be published, zeuzzz? I'd like to read it.

I have no problem with Zeuzzz writing a paper. If anything, even if he starts and does not complete it, it will give him insight into the daunting task he has set himself.

However, I object to Zeuzzz making no effort into understanding the current conventional hypotheses, that form the framework of human evolution. If Zeuzzz were to make this self-educational effort then he may see some element of the existing scientific framework that his claim may actually fit into.

It seems to me, that a good scientist has to fully understand another person's theory before dismissing it and offering reasons why it should be dismissed.

scrmbldggs · Post by **scrmbldggs** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:35 am

... or could be agreed with.

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:40 pm

Stoned ape theory is now youtube verified.

[ytube][/ytube]

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:46 pm

Olle wrote:Where will your article be published, zeuzzz? I'd like to read it.

I have no idea, I keep thinking it will be in a week or two, then I read a new book that adds another chapter of evidence for or against it.

scrmbldggs · Post by **scrmbldggs** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:01 pm

Not sure, but it seems you're answering "when" when Olle asked "where"?

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:34 pm

Ah, well I'll submit to Nature and Science obviously, failing that Plos One, and failing that probably as an article on my website catalyzingcognition.com (a joint effort and currently only a work in progress)

The blog the original article under discussion here is published on in the OP makes me cringe when I re-read some of those articles, regarding how naive I was back then. I keep them up only as an archival reference point for future improvement.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:07 am

zeuzzz wrote:Ah, well I'll submit to Nature and Science obviously.

Science: Information for authors
https://www.sciencemag.org/authors/scie ... on-authors

Research Articles (up to ~4500 words, including references, notes and captions, or ~5 printed pages) are expected to present a major advance. Research Articles include an abstract, an introduction, up to six figures or tables, sections with brief subheadings, and about 40 references.

You will probably need to actually set out the biological mechanism you are writing about.

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Ah, well I'll submit to Nature and Science obviously.
Science: Information for authors
https://www.sciencemag.org/authors/scie ... on-authors

Research Articles (up to ~4500 words, including references, notes and captions, or ~5 printed pages) are expected to present a major advance. Research Articles include an abstract, an introduction, up to six figures or tables, sections with brief subheadings, and about 40 references.

You will probably need to actually set out the biological mechanism you are writing about.

Ah - but if he doesn't submit to Nature and Science (obviously

) then he'll never be able to claim that they suppressed it.

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:15 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Ah, well I'll submit to Nature and Science obviously.
Science: Information for authors
https://www.sciencemag.org/authors/scie ... on-authors

Research Articles (up to ~4500 words, including references, notes and captions, or ~5 printed pages) are expected to present a major advance. Research Articles include an abstract, an introduction, up to six figures or tables, sections with brief subheadings, and about 40 references.

You will probably need to actually set out the biological mechanism you are writing about.

I'm at over 100 references now.

In terms of tables do you think pictures of various kitchen tables with stoned apes on (my housemates) would count?

The biological mechanism is quite simple, and is very much just standard evolutionary processes, but I expect that anthropological and sociological perspectives on it will be best received by materialists.

OlegTheBatty · Post by **OlegTheBatty** » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:31 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
The biological mechanism is quite simple, and is very much just standard evolutionary processes,

So, you're deep sixing the 'Stoned Ape' hypothesis then.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:09 am

zeuzzz wrote:I'm at over 100 references now. The biological mechanism is quite simple, and is very much just standard evolutionary processes,

That's a mighty large required reading list , just to get up to speed on organic chemistry, before you get on to statistics.

I suggest you read some Stephen Jay Gould books and papers, as he is a clear "popular" writer and put forward the original punctuated equilibrium theory. You can read his books in bed and not fall asleep.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:18 am

Research Articles (up to ~4500 words, including references, notes and captions, or ~5 printed pages) are expected to present a major advance

Poodle wrote:Ah - but if he doesn't submit to Nature and Science (obviously ) then he'll never be able to claim that they suppressed it.

I think his main problem will be disrupting the existing, well founded theories of human evolution and the evolution of language. That's pretty solid research.

I can't see how any submissions editor at Nature or Science will read Zeuzz's abstract and not think it is a crank article trying to disprove an already existing, substantiated, human evolutionary framework.

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:46 am

Nor can I. On the other hand, I can't see how Zeuzzz will ever get his stuff together for long enough to write an abstract of a thesis which is all in his head anyway.

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:50 pm

Zeuzz is taken far too seriosuly here.

Maybe I need to use a separate sarcasm color.

zeuzzz · Post by **zeuzzz** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:34 pm

Poodle wrote:Nor can I. On the other hand, I can't see how Zeuzzz will ever get his stuff together for long enough to write an abstract of a thesis which is all in his head anyway.

I've an archive of over 200 forum thread pages on various forumz on the issue. In my head maybe, but also online and searchable. Plus the academic papers in this area are fruitful pickings, there's been somewhat of a resurgence in psychedelic studies of late.

(forumz ... fora?)

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:19 am

zeuzzz wrote: I've an archive of over 200 forum thread pages on various forumz on the issue. In my head maybe, but also online and searchable. Plus the academic papers in this area are fruitful pickings, there's been somewhat of a resurgence in psychedelic studies of late.

"a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"

I suggest to you that writing a proper scientific paper is mostly about planning, before you "kick off". What you are doing is trying to either disprove or prove a clear, unambiguous and testable hypothesis.

That really means that you can drop any "fluff" that does not provide direct evidence, for or against your final unambiguous testable claim. In this hominid evolutionary scenario, you will have to argue against existing known mechanisms and already known hominid evolved physiology. In fact, disproving existing evolutionary theory will probably be the bulk of your paper.

May I suggest that you simply compose a one paragraph abstract, pretending you have completed the actual whole paper. Does that abstract make any sense? If not, you have to reconsider if you are simply making a non testable cultural opinion. What Terence McKenna said was interesting opinion from a cultural point of view, but McKenna made a mistake by pretending it was a scientific theory. I suggest to you that you may be forcing yourself to compose a scientific theory, when that's not really what you are trying to do, or able to do.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:18 pm

Olle wrote:Where will your article be published, zeuzzz? I'd like to read it.

zeuzzz wrote:I have no idea, I keep thinking it will be in a week or two, then I read a new book that adds another chapter of evidence for or against it.

Zeuzzz seems to have disappeared from the internet. Now comes the hard part......... Is everyone sitting down?

OK. I have some bad news. I don't think Zeuzzz is actually going to write a science paper supporting "The Stoned Ape theory".

Yep. What a shocker! I personally know two skeptics who refused to turn off their own life support machines in anticipation of reading this magna opus from Zeuzzz. I personally, never leave the house, hoping Pyrrho would ring me and say "Drop everything. Its been posted!!!". Think of the disappointment of the panel of scientists and biologists I hired in preparation for speedy peer review.

Zeuzzz? Are you out there somewhere?

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:57 am

Peer-reviewed by Buzzfeed.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:44 am

I actually do have some tragic news. I did a search for Zuezzz under his real name "Greg Kitson" which he openly posted on this forum. I found this on a Facebook Mushroom page dated 23rd December 2016.
https://www.facebook.com/MushroomsAreAw ... 1473410410

Hi all, I have been asked to write and let you know that tragically Greg Kitson, founder of this page and friend to many of you, died in early December, with his funeral taking place yesterday. Exact cause of death is not exactly known, except that he was found on his bed after he hadn't woken up that day. It looks like he had taken something to help him relax, or sleep, and misjudged the amount or combination of what he took. It is such a tragic loss of such a fantastic guy xx

I have subsequently found the obituary and specific details confirm this has happened to Zeuzzz. I have no more details. Pyrrho will make any decision, if anything needs to be done, about this thread

His parents are still alive. I would express in sincere terms, to them, that Zeuzzz was our forum friend and we all enjoyed his enthusiasm and our banter with him.

Gord · Post by **Gord** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:50 am

Aww.

Genaro · Post by **Genaro** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:50 pm

“The ufo is nothing more than an assertion of herself by the Goddess into history, saying to science and paternalistically governed and driven organizations: You have gone far enough. We are going to turn the world upside down. Your science is going to be shown up for what it is, nothing more than a pleasant metaphor usefully extrapolated into the production of toys for healthy children. That's what science is good for.

It is not some meta-theory at whose feet every point of view from astrology to acupressure to channeling need be laid to have the hand of science announce thumbs up or thumbs down.”

- Terence McKenna

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:41 pm

Given the two posts immediately before yours, Genaro, I suspect that you could be accused of extremely poor taste.

Give it a rest - just for a while. There's a good boy.

Genaro · Post by **Genaro** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:00 pm

I actually posted the McKenna quote in Greg's honor.

If that offends your sensibilities, poodle, that's your problem, not mine.

scrmbldggs · Post by **scrmbldggs** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:09 pm

Aw shucks, he still was so young. I'm really sorry to hear this and send my heartfelt condolences to his family and friends.

But I have to add, Don't abuse drugs, kids!

ETA Here's to you, Greg.

Poodle · Post by **Poodle** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:18 pm

Genaro wrote:I actually posted the McKenna quote in Greg's honor.

If that offends your sensibilities, poodle, that's your problem, not mine.

Did you now? You'll never understand why I find that offensive in the extreme.

Genaro · Post by **Genaro** » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:52 pm

Poodle wrote:
Genaro wrote:I actually posted the McKenna quote in Greg's honor.

If that offends your sensibilities, poodle, that's your problem, not mine.
Did you now? You'll never understand why I find that offensive in the extreme.

People like you who suffer from a highly developed sense of self-importance are always offended by something or someone, poodie.

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:44 am

Kids, that's why drugs; not even once.

Too soon?

Major Malfunction · Post by **Major Malfunction** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I did a search for Zuezzz under his real name... [SNIP]

Which makes me wonder what dirt Matt has on the rest of us...

Lynch him!

scientia · Post by **scientia** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:12 am

zeuzzz wrote:Someone please kindly shoot this article down in any conceivable way.

Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

I looked it over. This stood out to me:

The main three advantages McKenna identified as being of critical importance to the survival of Apes are that in higher doses, McKenna claims, the mushroom acts as a sexual stimulator, which would make it even more beneficial evolutionary (it would result to more offspring)

This doesn't seem to fit. In terms of sexuality, human males have larger than normal testicles (compared to other mammals) and have a penis that is shaped to remove semen. These physical adaptations were not caused by sexual stimulation. They were caused by reproductive competition. In reality, there are multiple adaptations required to be able to increase reproduction; it can't be done just by increasing sexual stimulation. Secondly, Bonobos are extremely sexual, more so than humans. So, why aren't Bonobos ahead of us? More realistically, Bonobos have much larger testicles than gorillas and are much more sexually active. Yet, Bonobos and gorillas seem to have quite similar cognitive ability (such as the ability to understand sign language). No correlation.

and at even higher doses the mushroom would have given humans the ability for self-reflection, which McKenna believed was unique to humans, and the first truly mystical experiences (which, as he believed, were the basis for the foundation of all subsequent religions to date).

This isn't how the brain works. I would challenge anyone to name a drug that causes humans to be smarter or more adaptive. There have been people who have claimed creative boosts for things like writing or music but these are not direct, survival advantages.

Another factor that McKenna talked about was the mushroom's potency to promote linguistic thinking.

Again, the brain doesn't work this way. This seems to be a case of taking the way babies learn to talk and projecting it to evolutionary development (which is quite different).

This would have promoted vocalization, which in turn would have acted in cleansing the brain (based on a scientific theory that vibrations from speaking cause the precipitation of impurities from the brain to the cerebrospinal fluid), which would further mutate our brain.

Seriously? This is absurd.

Matthew Ellard · Post by **Matthew Ellard** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:42 pm

scientia wrote: I looked it over. This stood out to me:.

Zuezzz passed away in December 2016. (See above)

However Terence McKenna, himself admitted the whole Stoned Ape claim was bogus and a story he used to get attention. I will find McKenna's full quote in the thread, if you ask me.

It is probably best to look at this thread as Zeuzzz arguing magic mushrooms and DMT "are good" because Zeuzzz was taking magic mushrooms and DMT. That's about it.