Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

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landrew
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by landrew » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:57 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
He wouldn't have been a proper martyr without being caught eventually.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
Yes, and as you also probably recall, the sex was consensual and the rest was trumped up BS.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
Yes, and as you also probably recall, the sex was consensual and the rest was trumped up BS.
Not by Swedish law. There, it was close enough to the rule of law to warrant investigation.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:43 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:03 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
Yes, and as you also probably recall, the sex was consensual and the rest was trumped up BS.
Not by Swedish law. There, it was close enough to the rule of law to warrant investigation.
By Swedish law, a man paying a woman for sex is considered to be rape. I don't know about a man with another man, or a woman paying Ronaldo or me.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:37 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:43 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:03 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
Yes, and as you also probably recall, the sex was consensual and the rest was trumped up BS.
Not by Swedish law. There, it was close enough to the rule of law to warrant investigation.
By Swedish law, a man paying a woman for sex is considered to be rape. I don't know about a man with another man, or a woman paying Ronaldo or me.
When in Sweden, one is subject to Swedish law. One's opinion of that law is not relevant.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:48 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:37 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:43 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:03 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
Yes, and as you also probably recall, the sex was consensual and the rest was trumped up BS.
Not by Swedish law. There, it was close enough to the rule of law to warrant investigation.
By Swedish law, a man paying a woman for sex is considered to be rape. I don't know about a man with another man, or a woman paying Ronaldo or me.
When in Sweden, one is subject to Swedish law. One's opinion of that law is not relevant.
The persecution of Assange has nothing to do with sex. The sex charges were dropped and it's your comments about them that are irrelevant.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:39 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:48 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:37 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:43 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:03 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Gord wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 am
Tom Palven wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:56 am
...the US deep state/MIC has gone bad, destroying lives and property in the Mid-East, aiding and abetting Egyptian repression and Saudi terrorism, and so on.
"The deep state/MIC?" That's not a real thing. You're blaming a bogeyman for committing real tragedies.
Who do you think is responsible for the arrest of Julian Assange? Call it the "intelligence Community Coordinating Committee" or simply "the US government" if you want to, which I think is less specific, but he didn't just get arrested by magic, did he?

And he wasn't arrested by a bunch of classical liberals, was he?
He was first arrested on sexual assault charges in Sweden. So, yeah, liberals.
Yes, and as you also probably recall, the sex was consensual and the rest was trumped up BS.
Not by Swedish law. There, it was close enough to the rule of law to warrant investigation.
By Swedish law, a man paying a woman for sex is considered to be rape. I don't know about a man with another man, or a woman paying Ronaldo or me.
When in Sweden, one is subject to Swedish law. One's opinion of that law is not relevant.
The persecution of Assange has nothing to do with sex. The sex charges were dropped and it's your comments about them that are irrelevant.
And your comments are relevant? How so?
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

.......................Doesn't matter how often I'm proved wrong.................... ~ bobbo the pragmatist

Tom Palven
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:36 am

Julian Assange is not being persecuted for lying or fabricating disinformation. Julian Assange is being persecuted for exposing THE TRUTH.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Gord
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Gord » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:44 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:36 am
Julian Assange is not being persecuted for lying or fabricating disinformation. Julian Assange is being persecuted for exposing THE TRUTH.
Sure. That and many other things. But he's also being PROSECUTED for breaking THE LAW. Currently he's under arrest for breaking his bail conditions, for which he faces up to 12 months in prison.

Furthermore: Two women in Sweden accused him of two different things. One said he "tampered with" the condom they were using, essentially resulting in her having unprotected sex with him against her will (the sex may have been willing, but the unprotected part would not). The other said he had "penetrated her without a condom while she was sleeping": https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/4/1 ... en-embassy

When an English court ruled he should be extradited to face investigation in Sweden, he fled to foreign soil to avoid the law. The Ecuardorians granted him asylum to protect him from exradition to the US (not Sweden) where they felt the punishment would be too harsh.
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Wordbird » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:21 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:19 am
Wordbird wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:01 am
Scamming, without it specifically being fraud, is not aggression.
Non-sensical oxymoron.
So Tom, nothing to say to this? I point out that deceit does not necessarily equal fraud in libertarian philosophy (it must be part of a transaction and specifically violate the consent needed for that transaction to occur), Bobbo rightly stomps me to the ground for such nonsense, and you're just going to sit there, Tom?

Not cool.

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:01 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:37 pm


When in Sweden, one is subject to Swedish law. One's opinion of that law is not relevant.
There is such a thing as an unjust law. It has been said that it is the duty of every decent person to disobey unjust laws.

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:18 am

From Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan:
"Tonight, both Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange are in jail, both over offences related to the publication of materials specifying US war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, and both charged with nothing else at all."
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire
I may not agree with the what you say, but I will defend your right to say it. --Voltaire
Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Denis Diderot
I haven't abandoned my vices. My vices have abandoned me. --Denis Diderot

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by mack_10 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:41 am

landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:51 pm
mack_10 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:17 am
Some of the "gentle lessons" result in the maiming or death of the victims some of which are very young children, think antivaxxers and the current measles outbreak, think cancer patient who should see an oncologist but sees a faith healer instead.
Legal protection for the mentally deficient is not a "Soviet style Regime" interesting that you would think that, if you commit fraud why shouldn't you be sent to prison.
Apparently you completely misread my post, if you think I conflated the types of frauds that humiliate someone with the types of frauds that hurt people. The punishment should fit the crime. If you want to go zero-tolerance and clamp down on everything you consider a fraud, you'd need a Soviet-style regime.

I'm no fan of any fraud, but it should be up to the individual to decide about things which are relatively harmless.
Apparently you completely misread my post, I am not talking about things that are harmless, quacks pretending to practice medicine are never harmless.
The law is to protect the weak from the strong, do you see all law enforcement as " Soviet-style"? Not everyone has both a decent education and common sense is not common, should we just sacrifice the weakminded to the sociopaths that feed of them?

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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by Wordbird » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:14 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:18 am
From Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan:
"Tonight, both Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange are in jail, both over offences related to the publication of materials specifying US war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, and both charged with nothing else at all."
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
All you do is post links. It makes you sound intelligent, congrats.

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landrew
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Re: Does a negative claim carry more weight than a positive one?

Post by landrew » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:21 pm

mack_10 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:41 am
landrew wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:51 pm
mack_10 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:17 am
Some of the "gentle lessons" result in the maiming or death of the victims some of which are very young children, think antivaxxers and the current measles outbreak, think cancer patient who should see an oncologist but sees a faith healer instead.
Legal protection for the mentally deficient is not a "Soviet style Regime" interesting that you would think that, if you commit fraud why shouldn't you be sent to prison.
Apparently you completely misread my post, if you think I conflated the types of frauds that humiliate someone with the types of frauds that hurt people. The punishment should fit the crime. If you want to go zero-tolerance and clamp down on everything you consider a fraud, you'd need a Soviet-style regime.

I'm no fan of any fraud, but it should be up to the individual to decide about things which are relatively harmless.
Apparently you completely misread my post, I am not talking about things that are harmless, quacks pretending to practice medicine are never harmless.
The law is to protect the weak from the strong, do you see all law enforcement as " Soviet-style"? Not everyone has both a decent education and common sense is not common, should we just sacrifice the weakminded to the sociopaths that feed of them?
You seem determined to conflate the type of quackery that harmlessly humiliates, with the type of quackery that injures people.
This is your third attempt.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.