The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

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The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #1  Postby caris » Sat May 05, 2007 5:52 pm

I would really like to meet intelligent rationally minded people who are interested in my research whether you are a trouble-maker like me or simply out of curiosity or whatever reason you may have. Science is being misused here to dupe people in being involved in a cult and I believe that it is possible to if not completely stop this to at very least make a difference.

Until I came along the Science of Identity Foundation had pretty much manged to go quietly about it's business since being founded in 1978 by Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa - Chris Butler.

The A-typical cult leader really living in a mansion in Hawaii carrying on with manipulation and lies, I have started to document it all on my website http://www.cultofbutler.com and found that it bothers them. A lot. I dont care. I want to see this cult exposed for exactly what it is.

My latest project is dissecting the so called Science of Identity which is set out in Butler's book Who Are You

The basic concept of this very convuluted doctrine that is a combination of Hare Krishna, Christianity and Ego is that you are not the body or the mind but soul and realising that you are the soul is how you get to have a reationship with God. Of course neither the existence of the soul or God is proven and I am a born again skeptic by virtue of re-educating myself through the recovery of my cult experience, but Butler attempts to use Science to validate his claims and bolster his credibility.

The following is one claim which he makes to prove that you are not really the body.

Let me ask you a few simple questions: Do you exist at this moment? Did you exist five years ago? Are you your body? Most people would answer “yes” to all three questions. But if you identify your body as yourself, and simultaneously accept that you exist now and also existed five years ago, then you have a problem: The body you had five years ago does not exist today. There is a dynamic turnover of atoms and molecules which make up your body. There isn’t a single particle of matter—not one atom—present in your body today that was present five years ago. The body you have today is not the same body you had five years ago. It’s not that the body you had still exists but has now changed somewhat. No. The body you had is gone. That collection of atoms appearing as flesh, bone, blood, hair, and so on no longer exists. Yet you still exist.


I suspect that this can be proven as baloney, although I want for it to be well referenced and credibly refuted baloney.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #2  Postby NeroXIV » Sat May 05, 2007 6:14 pm

caris wrote:There is a dynamic turnover of atoms and molecules which make up your body. There isn’t a single particle of matter—not one atom—present in your body today that was present five years ago.

By his logic, if you had every atom from 5 years ago in a big bucket, that *would* be your body. But it ain't. Your body is a particular arrangement of atoms. The atoms themselves are interchangeable. So what? If we were stoned ninth graders, we could be blowing our minds for a little while. But we're not.
Last edited by NeroXIV on Sat May 05, 2007 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3  Postby MajorityofOne » Sat May 05, 2007 6:41 pm

There are cells in your body that can live around 20-30 years and they're part of your immune system. Around puberty, the gland called the thymus, starts to atrophy, and it no longer puts out these cells. If your thymus takes longer to atrophy and you lose it later, you have immunity against things such as cancer for longer than others. So, given this information we can surmise that people are going to start getting cancer from smoking or other environmental carcinogens around age 50 or so and BLAMO -- that's when it happens. If you're one of the luckier ones I mentioned, you may develop cancers much later, and so on.

The funniest things I hear people say are: "we only use 5% of our brain" to which I respond: "it's obvious that you do" and this jewel: "all of the cells in our body are renewed or replaced every 7 years" furthering the number 7 having some kind of "biblical" meaning non-sense.

It amazes me how much people think they "know." And, it is precisely this tendency people have that leads them to fall victim to cults. Some charasmatic dude (a Jesus like figure maybe) tells them something based on "science" and it sounds great and of course they WANT to believe in something or belong to something or whatever, and they get sucked in.

Be skeptical. Be very very skeptical. Be skeptical of what I have said above and do some research on it. Don't take things for granted and don't believe people because they "seem to know what they're talking about."
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #4  Postby Chachacha » Sat May 05, 2007 7:06 pm

NeroXIV wrote: Your body is a particular arrangement of atoms. The atoms themselves are interchangeable. So what? If we were stoned ninth graders, we could blowing our minds for a little while. But we're not.


Dang, those were the days when it took so little to blow our minds!   :lol:


Cult leaders are con men - they feed on people's desires.  The latest desire being to be able to "prove scientifically" that religion has all the answers.  I don't blame the cult leaders or the con men so much, they are opportunists; but I do blame the millions of people that go LOOKING for someone to give them the answers they desire, and are appalled when they find out that's all they got.
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Post #5  Postby caris » Sat May 05, 2007 7:13 pm

My own turn over time in the cult was rather quick - I just dont get how the atom turnover is quoted about as a scientific fact, it is referenced in Who Are You as being from Guy Murchies The Seven Mysteries of Life, who appears to have attributed it to "recent studies" at Oakridge Atomic Research, although "recent" would have to be prior to 1978 when the book was written. I have not seen any biogrphical information to indicate that Murchie was any sort of scientist though, he appears to have been a philosopher.

It just appears to fail simple logic, emphasema, paralysis, brain damage for examples are all permanent, renewal of atoms does not get rid of them. Scars do not disappear, eye color and fingerprints dont change.
Butler talks about how the brain is not the same brain that you had last week - he has actually claimed that their is no part in the brain that keeps memory and memory is infact part of your soul (as far as I know the part that keeps memory is the cerebal cortex and is well known about by science, but I learned that from watching The Butterfly Effect)

Chris Butler makes claims that are completely preposterous - he has predicted the end of the world four times now. I got the hell out of there when they started taking up survivalism over avian flu, I didnt know about the other predictions or a lot of the stuff on my website before then.

I am sure that it is the presentation as much as anything just calling it a science that brings people in that and the meditation, yoga, hypnosis and gradual indoctrination. I am convinced that Yoga and Meditation are simply being used as methods of thought reform. Personally I was induced to lose consciousness during what they call "deep peace meditation" which I later found out Chris Butler had been using with the intent of making people susceptible to his preaching since the seventies and which is identical to progressive relaxation hypnosis.

I see there is quite a bit on skeptic sites regarding Christianity are cults generally of interest or are they too controversial?
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #6  Postby caris » Sat May 05, 2007 7:28 pm

Chachacha wrote:
NeroXIV wrote: Cult leaders are con men - they feed on people's desires.  The latest desire being to be able to "prove scientifically" that religion has all the answers.  I don't blame the cult leaders or the con men so much, they are opportunists; but I do blame the millions of people that go LOOKING for someone to give them the answers they desire, and are appalled when they find out that's all they got.


I agree with you that cult leaders are conmen and I respect your point of view but if there were no cult leaders there would not be any people being misled and also I think that it should be considered that Yoga is presented as being a form of exercise and meditation promoted as stress relief and relaxation, people generally dont get involved in this cult thinking about religion. Personally I got involved in it because I was impressed by Vedic Science as it was presented to me and while I still have an interest in Vedic science the more study I did the more I realised why Chris Butler does not encourage the reading of books. I actually never went to a congregation where at least one person did not make a comment or get up and leave to the effect of feeling that they had been misled or not realised it was some sort of religious thing.

The vast majority of the popuation seems to think that they know what yoga is but they really dont have a clue.

The way that I see Hindu derived religions now is as being the perfection of religion, it is no wonder that there are so many gurus in India and around the world using them to gain control over others. They all promise happiness, ISKCON proclaimed "Chant and Be Happy" while Chris Butler's first book was called "Pleasure is the Goal" They figured out that people are only unhappy because they want things that they cant have and just set about convincing them that they dont really want anything. Of course if you could find some way to sit in a corner and chant for the rest of your life you would have no problems, because you have no life. Any time you feel unhappy or frustrated it is your fault because you wanted something when you should be thinking about chanting. You are always wrong which means that guru is always right and even if you are not wrong they have the karma loophole whereby even if you havent done anything to deserve something terrible - like you are a child being physically, sexually and psychologically tortured in an ISKCON school you MUST be getting punished for something that you did in a past life, and of course you cant ask questions because you cant trust your own mind so you shouldnt be wondering what kind of all loving being punishes you for sins that you cant even remember or anything like that.

I am sure that there will always be believers out there, but there would be considerably less people getting sucked into this cult if there were not deceptive tactics being employed to indoctrinate them.
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Post #7  Postby Chachacha » Sun May 06, 2007 2:31 am

Caris, I have sympathy for humans.  Most of us have emptiness inside that we try to fill with something - or more usually a variety of some things - and the seductive advertisement and promises in the secular world and the seductive promises in the religious world are always there, like siren songs calling to us, or trumpeteers demanding our attention.  It is our responsibility to hear these things for what they are, and if we want to investigate the promise, to do so with our eyes and our ears open and staying tuned to ourselves and the warnings of our inner voices.
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Post #8  Postby caris » Sun May 06, 2007 4:22 am

Chachacha, I understand that your view is not unsympathetic I have spent a lot of time talking about the cult and developed an understanding of the perspectives, honestly I see both sides of the debate of who is to blame and personally think that both are true. There are people who do very well in cults that have enough knowledge, insights and experience to know better but they still stay in. It is an interesting phenomenom that some people go from one guru to another and they can "rationalise" him just as well as they did the one that they now denounce as bogus apparently without realising how ridiculous that is.

The challenge to me, I have already been told that my research and activism has helped people and I know that those who I am opposing are paying attention and feel less secure, is to educate. It does not trouble me if anyone wants to have faith so long as the facts are available for them to decide for themselves.
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Post #9  Postby MajorityofOne » Sun May 06, 2007 1:24 pm

Some of these cult types prey on women's insecurities, too. They make women think they're beautiful and desirable, etc. and for some women, this is a bigger reason they stay than because they truly believe in what the dude is saying. The feeling of being desired and special is hard to resist.
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Post #10  Postby caris » Sun May 06, 2007 6:35 pm

As a woman I have not seen this in science of identity though. Infact quite the opposite - women are considered inferior to men and suppossed to be submissive and you are made to feel like garbage if you dont have a husband and having babies to serve god and guru.

I just put an update on my website http://www.cultofbutler.com tonight that is a letter from Chris Butler which goes into detail about how a woman is meant to be submissive, directs blame to not being submissive enough if a husband "has to" get domineering or violent and condones having co-wives.

The Hindu and Krishna Consciousness religion and those derived from it, which Science of Identity is, are very patriachial and oppressive of women.
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Post #11  Postby caris » Sun May 06, 2007 6:44 pm

As a woman I have not seen this in science of identity though. Infact quite the opposite - women are considered inferior to men and suppossed to be submissive and you are made to feel like garbage if you dont have a husband and having babies to serve god and guru.

I just put an update on my website http://www.cultofbutler.com tonight that is a letter from Chris Butler which goes into detail about how a woman is meant to be submissive, directs blame to not being submissive enough if a husband "has to" get domineering or violent and condones having co-wives.

The Hindu and Krishna Consciousness religion and those derived from it, which Science of Identity is, are very patriachial and oppressive of women.
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Post #12  Postby Mathew Scott Fitsgarrett » Sun May 06, 2007 9:47 pm

Dear Caris,

Let the cult go and enjoy your independence. You may attack Mr. Butler with facts and exposé until doomsday and still there will be a stubborn inner circle who holds on. If you direct energy toward an energy vampire it will receive nourishment whether your energy is positive or negative. Mr. Butler is a clingon, he will slowly fade into oblivion if you save your ample intelligence and energy for the gigantic real problems humanity is faced with. The larger human family needs your keen mind directed to one nearby solution, one problem at a time.

Forget about Mr. Butler as fast as you can. If you must, spend a year in isolation looking at Hubble photos and contemplating the joy which holds an atomic nucleus from blowing itself apart. All your atoms were born within stars long deceased. The stars have lived their lives to make you. Atoms held togeather by the power of joy flow through our physical lives as a river gift from the cosmos.

Enjoy your freedom and you are living life's purpose,

MSF
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Post #13  Postby Chachacha » Sun May 06, 2007 10:07 pm

That was beautiful, Matthew.  I completely understand Caris' desire to reach back to help those still in the jaws of the beast and to try to stop others from entering, but your ideas are excellent; if only to have her be able to return to her quest at a later date refreshed and filled with gratitude and joy.

I keep telling myself to enjoy and share the good things about being religion-free instead of pointing out the bad things about being religious, but I keep forgetting.
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Post #14  Postby caris » Sun May 06, 2007 11:20 pm

They are very beautiful words and thank-you :D

I understand that it is not really possible to eradicate such parasites, but cult awareness is a very important and often neglected field. I am always mindful of the fact that if I had not had an internet connection back in October when I started and found that I was not the "only one" as of course those I knew in the cult did their best to convince me that I was, that I would have taken my own life, I really was just at that point.

There have been moments of recovery for me which in hindsight although they were unpleasant at the time can be looked back on as an opportunity personal growth. I remind myself that I am only 27 - there is still time to bounce back in life.

Now I have met many friends around the world who show the resilience and intelligence of the human spirit and been able to expand my mind a great deal. Just like some people have a hobby or a career of true crime cults are fascinating if tragic and although not to everyone's taste have their relevance in being documented as psychology, sociology and history. I am ever grateful to the anti-cult movement and feel able and willing to contribute to it.

Becoming a cult activist is not really about not being able to move on - it is about taking back empowerment and doing what I can to help others find theirs. It is about not letting Chris Butler take away the desire to positively contribute to the lives of others and the inquiring mind which have driven me to seek spirituality and become involved in his cult in the first place.
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Post #15  Postby Mathew Scott Fitsgarrett » Mon May 07, 2007 12:51 pm

Dear Caris,

Though your motives are pure, be wary and try to refrain from even detached intellectual involvement with the cult you have outgrown and left in your past.

Cult awareness is too big for any individual to handle. The outrageous claims used for manipulation of cult members practice the same techniques used on a larger scale to justify war and plunder our beautiful planet. Try to avoid even thinking of the cult until it is further behind you.

The problem is too big for isolated individuals. Make new friends. Look to the future. Be a happy 27 year-old. Think of how much you will do in the next twenty-seven, and the twenty-seven after that. Enjoy the long life ahead of you.

MSF
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Post #16  Postby ruprecht » Thu May 10, 2007 4:13 am

pretty good work on this guy and his crew, Caris.
they didn't like me trolling their get togethers at all.
makes me a bit disgusted to think that the chocolate cake might have been adulterated with foot washing water.
but likely, that is too valuable a resource to just feed it to anyone. they must save the good stuff for the inner circle.

BTW, guys, some nice university type no-brain chicks there. Grab em up before the religious goons do ! Plenty of feminists too..good for a spank at least. Before they give their all to whazzizzname.
"call me "RainCheck"... cause I don't fade away" ..V.M.
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Post #17  Postby ifort » Fri May 11, 2007 2:36 pm

You seem to have a broken link there.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #18  Postby vinayakadu » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:26 pm

I agree with the above comment: “Cult awareness is too big for any individual to handle. The outrageous claims used for manipulation of cult members practice the same techniques used on a larger scale to justify war and plunder our beautiful planet…”

I think that you must think more with an understanding that cults exist on a larger scale and not just focus on SoI (Science of Identity). Cult culture is part of our society and many analogies can be found in relation to SoI - 1) cult of manliness in Catholic Church; 2) cult of ideal female beauty in fashion companies (which unfortunately results in anorexia); 3) cult of money; cult of collective soul (almost everywhere), etc. SoI is practicing nothing else than just the cult of personality, which may be found on all social levels including business and political ones. I read a good article in an American psychological journal (about collective soul) that the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster had happened because the “collective soul of the best engineers” simply ignored comments of other engineers who did not have such an “authoritative status” in the project; hence the “chosen ones” rejected objections which could have prevented the disaster. Here the cult of collective soul resulted in deaths of many people.

It is illogical to expose a cult, on the one hand, and think, on the other hand, that other forms of behavior of society are cultless just because general public think so. Your website is very helpful but do understand that if you need to develop cult awareness, it is not Chris Butler or Sri Chimnoy but the cult of authoritarianism the above personalities are the result of. Krishnamurti defined authoritarianism very well:  http://www.freebsd.nfo.sk/hinduism/sects.htm

Authoritarianism is good in a profession (astronomer, etc.) and in things this profession deals with (an astronomer and his theory about stars), but ask how many Australians or Americans would give a positive response to an astronomer's opinion on Hinduism only because this astronomer is a graduate of Harvard? Surely many. Here you can see the zero point where cults possibly start and the moment when their development can be suppressed. If it is late, we have Timothy Learies, Butlers, and other ”prophets”. The direction must be first implemented in education. Ask yourself why it is so difficult for many to acknowledge the same opinion of a Hindu beggar and how many times did you see such a beggar in the media? It does not make me feel good if I see anti-Butler activities made by those who possible support all other cults in society and on all its levels without knowing what a cult is. Cult of nationality is just another cult. Indians say that land cannot have an owner and they are right. If they are wrong, then we two must have the same right to choose a land on Mars or on Earth; unfortunately, we both know that we have not such a right. Perhaps we should go to Antarctica - declare a land there as our own and see if that is possible.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #19  Postby MRSkeptic » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:28 am

I'm interested to find out more about this cult as my brother is a member and has been for some time.  The cultof butler link to the external site doesn't seem to work anymore.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #20  Postby Gord » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:18 pm

This discussion is so old, none of the people who posted in it still post here.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #21  Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:54 pm

come to the dark side... we have cuckoos




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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #22  Postby skeptic916 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:59 am

Hi MRSkeptic

The cultofbulter site no longer works.  Shame really.  I recall having a good look around it back in 2009 and it had some great information about the cult and its links to businesses (fronts).  There were photos of the members and some insider accounts of working in the businesses.  It showed how the various yoga schools were used to attract members.  It was quite comprehensive so I am not surprised it was shut down in some capacity.  Like I said, a real shame.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #23  Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:04 am

skeptic916 wrote:Hi MRSkeptic

The cultofbulter site no longer works.  Shame really.  I recall having a good look around it back in 2009 and it had some great information about the cult and its links to businesses (fronts).  There were photos of the members and some insider accounts of working in the businesses.  It showed how the various yoga schools were used to attract members.  It was quite comprehensive so I am not surprised it was shut down in some capacity.  Like I said, a real shame.


Good on you for investigating.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #24  Postby skeptic916 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:29 am

I applied for a job and while getting some background information on the company I found myself on the Cultofbulter site.  Apparently the company I was seeking employment with was one of the front companies.  One of the guys interviewing me was photographed at a meeting swaying in a trance.  It was all so surreal that I pulled my application.  Turns out a guy I know ended up with the role.  I haven't spoken to him since though.  I'll post back here if I manage to see him anytime soon.  It was such an interesting story.  I am annoyed the site no longer exists.  It was awesome and comprehensive.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #25  Postby Scott Mayers » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:52 am


This site seems to have conflicting problems with their presentation and links. The intro to what is titled, "mind control" tells you what the section will be discussing and then leaves you hanging since it just ends at this intro. If you link to "brainwashing", it leads you to suggested credible idea topics on the matter, like the 1981 movie, "The Wave", but then the link you'd expect to provide details leads you to a 401 error.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #26  Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:24 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:

This site seems to have conflicting problems with their presentation and links. The intro to what is titled, "mind control" tells you what the section will be discussing and then leaves you hanging since it just ends at this intro. If you link to "brainwashing", it leads you to suggested credible idea topics on the matter, like the 1981 movie, "The Wave", but then the link you'd expect to provide details leads you to a 401 error.


Yeah, no idea what's going on. They changed their domain name recently and now the whole setup. Maybe that's causing the problem? The above link doesn't work for me anymore but this one does.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #27  Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:32 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:

This site seems to have conflicting problems with their presentation and links. The intro to what is titled, "mind control" tells you what the section will be discussing and then leaves you hanging since it just ends at this intro. If you link to "brainwashing", it leads you to suggested credible idea topics on the matter, like the 1981 movie, "The Wave", but then the link you'd expect to provide details leads you to a 401 error.


Yeah, no idea what's going on. They changed their domain name recently and now the whole setup. Maybe that's causing the problem? The above link doesn't work for me anymore but this one does.

The requested page cannot be found.
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #28  Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:51 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:

This site seems to have conflicting problems with their presentation and links. The intro to what is titled, "mind control" tells you what the section will be discussing and then leaves you hanging since it just ends at this intro. If you link to "brainwashing", it leads you to suggested credible idea topics on the matter, like the 1981 movie, "The Wave", but then the link you'd expect to provide details leads you to a 401 error.


Yeah, no idea what's going on. They changed their domain name recently and now the whole setup. Maybe that's causing the problem? The above link doesn't work for me anymore but this one does.

The requested page cannot be found.


It works fine for me. :pardon:

But since ya had me looking, I searched for "The Wave" online documentary. Problem is, it doesn't run. :lol:
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #29  Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:01 am

In contrast, was able to get "The Wave". Out of curiosity, where are you? I'm guessing that our governments and/or institutions are becoming more and more successful at being able to control content on our Internet. I'm guessing that whoever is overseeing ours here is blocking the site and making it appear that it doesn't exist. If it is not our conservative government (who would prefer that we don't learn of how to prevent ourselves from becoming victims of such cultivating tactics), then I'd imagine that it is our Internet Service Providers who can manage the gateways.

I was already kind of suspicious why such a powerful documentary like "The Wave" has had such apparently little reception. In fact, only a more recent remake of it in Germany has been done since 1981. [Before anyone attempts to accuse me of 'conspiracy theory', I urge you to think that if you should, that you'd be prepared to demonstrate that there are no such things as conspiracies all together.]
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Re: The Science of Identity (cult) Awareness Needed

Post #30  Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:17 pm

Yeah, true true, the world seems out to "get us". And each in different ways. See, you have bats in your home, and I don't.

Maybe I don't have the required plug-in for those. :-P
come to the dark side... we have cuckoos




Used to being called an idiot by idiots.

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Scott Mayers
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