Microwave ovens

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VFX_Jeff
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Microwave ovens

Postby VFX_Jeff » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:10 pm

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum and had a question for those in the know. I didn't use the search function for my question so don't flame me. Anyway, I have a client who insists microwave ovens are dangerous and affect the "vibration" of water making it unsafe for human consumption. Add to this the conspiracy theory that the FDA and other health organiztions don't want you to know this as they're getting kickbacks from the companies that develop new technology, etc,... nothing you haven't heard before.

Does anyone have any current info on this? Is microwaved food bad for you? Thanks for your time.

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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby JJM » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:14 pm

VFX_Jeff wrote:Is microwaved food bad for you?
Microwaved water is no different from un-microwaved water. There are (at least) two concerns about microwaving. If you are cooking (as opposed to re-heating) food that way, are you cooking it thoroughly? Also, is the container suitable for microwaving? Beyond not using metallic containers, you want to be sure nothing from the container will leach into the food (I prefer glass or ceramic containers if I will be making the food really hot).

Search FDA Consumer for more information.

As for someone citing a conspiracy theory; good luck.

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Postby VFX_Jeff » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:43 am

Thanks for the response JJM. Out here on the west coast, space-cadetism is very prevalent, at least much more than where I grew up in NY. Many people believe in just plain bizarre things, vibration of water being among them. Studying chemistry, there definitely is a vibration or collective frequency of molecular/atomic movement within every substance, but how you jump to that affecting your food quality, I don't know. There is even a "clustered water" that has the "proper" molecular structure and vibration that is optimal for human consumption. Of course it cures a multitude of ailments :shock: .
Well, if anyone would like to expand on this, the floor is yours. Keep critical thinking alive.

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Postby jj » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:03 am

Water is water.

"vibrating" water is exactly the same thing as "hot water". No more. No less.

As JJM has said, there are concerns with microwaving, those involve contamination and thorough heating, not the results of microwaves.
Why does an infallable book have to be constantly revised?

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Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:34 am

Microwaves rotate the water molecule, anyway. The rotational energy is transformed into heat (vibrational energy) when they bump into each other.
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Postby Xipe_Totec » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:16 am

jj wrote:"vibrating" water is exactly the same thing as "hot water". No more. No less.

Exactly. Heat is nothing but increased kinetic energy, translational, rotational and vibrational. Simply be heating water, even on your common household stove, you're affecting the vibration of the molecules. Maybe offering that bit of info, wrapped in a similar CT garbage (stove companies giving a kickback to FDA, etc) would do the trick in showing the ridiculousness of singleing out microwaves.

Either that, or the person will start eating cold food. :roll:
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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby didaktik » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:27 am

VFX_Jeff wrote:Is microwaved food bad for you?


Here's a 2005 summary of past research suggesting caution might be in order:

http://www.life.ca/nl/103/microwave.html
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Postby Major Malfunction » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:37 am

Literally cooks from the inside out, 'ey? :roll:
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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby JJM » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:52 am

didaktik wrote:
VFX_Jeff wrote:Is microwaved food bad for you?


Here's a 2005 summary of past research suggesting caution might be in order:

http://www.life.ca/nl/103/microwave.html
There is clearly a need for more research, but North American universities and governments seem more interested in what happens if a microwave oven door malfunctions than on the effects of eating microwaved foods. Is it because the companies that fund much of the research don’t want us to know?
Some good conspiracy literature for us. This magazine is not a scholarly source of information. One would have to evaluate the "cited" studies.

"A Spanish study ..." is not a useful citation. When considering the degradation of nutrients, it is important to compare microwaving to equvivalent, conventional methods of heating. The degradation of nutrients is another topic to consider; but, it is not verified by this article.

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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby Pzomby » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:12 pm

VFX_Jeff wrote:Hi all, Does anyone have any current info on this? Is microwaved food bad for you? Thanks for your time.


Below is a link to a site that thoroughly investigates the claims about food cooked in microwave ovens. It debunks most of the claims of problems of food cooked by the microwave process.
The writer claims to be an electronic engineer but also has an apparent religious connection. The G*d word is referred to frequently in the article. :?

MICROWAVE OVENS AND FOOD by Gordon Simkin (Physicist, Electronic Engineer)
“Ever since I was in college in 1950, I have heard about microwave energy and its effects. Microwave ovens were not generally available until around 1958 or so. Over the years, especially recently, I have heard many claims that microwave ovens do all kinds of bad things to any food placed in them and therefore food heated in them can harm your health. Such reports come from some reputable sources, and seem authoritative; but most have no documentation, no evidence as to their truthfulness. I have read various reports about problems
supposedly caused by them. There is at least one "clinical" report that claims to show that using microwave ovens causes changes in your blood. Are all these claims true, or are they just misunderstandings, etc.?

There are many people who believe what they read, even though there is absolutely no evidence that the claims are even based on fact. There are many who have removed their microwave ovens from their kitchens and no longer use them. What are these bad claims, and what is the evidence that they are based on? I will list 14 specific claims or claim sources, and analyze each one in depth.” http://home.lewiscounty.com/~georgie/mi ... tml#MIC14L

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Postby spayced » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:54 am

Microwaves are safer than regular ovens.
DId we all just miss that study last week proving microwaves kill most bacteria in 30 seconds?

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Postby Paulhoff » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:43 pm

The big problem is that most, (I would think like over 99 percent), people don't have a clue to how microwaves ovens work, but that goes for most thing in general anyway.

Paul

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Postby VFX_Jeff » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:13 pm

What's up everybody,
I once again spoke to my client regarding all of the info everyone here posted (thanks :) ). She referred me to this page. It's rather lengthy, but interesting. Tell me what you think:

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lmicrowaveovens.htm

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Postby Paulhoff » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:37 pm

You know that ovens use infrared radiation which is electromagnetic energy and this is not so-called natural, only humans cook food.

Paul

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Postby JJM » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:51 pm

VFX_Jeff wrote:What's up everybody,
I once again spoke to my client regarding all of the info everyone here posted (thanks :) ). She referred me to this page. It's rather lengthy, but interesting. Tell me what you think:

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lmicrowaveovens.htm
I think the web page was cobbled-together by someone who learned some terminology and did not understand any of it. The home page makes it clear that these people subscribe to all things woo; so everything you see there is an indiscriminate jumble of truth and fantasy. It is target rich for rational debunking.

Near the bottom of the page on microwaving, they cite a press release (dor what that's worth) that compares the destruction of anti-oxidants in vegetables across different cooking methods. They thought steaming preserved these componds best, while microwaving was worst. However, one has to wonder how they know they didn't overdo it in the nuker.

Elsewhere, they quote someone saying that food from the nuker has "unnatural" energies in it. That is utter nonsense. As is most of the other "information."

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Postby Beleth » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:04 pm

How is electromagnetic energy not natural?

How is the fact that humans cook their food not natural? Humans have been doing it since there have been humans...
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Postby Paulhoff » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:11 pm

Beleth wrote:How is electromagnetic energy not natural?

That is the point, of course it is natural.

How is the fact that humans cook their food not natural? Humans have been doing it since there have been humans...

Not to play the devils advocate, but that is not known as fact and it does matter anyway when it started, human are the only ones, therefore in the world of animals it is not natural, so why is microwave cooking any different in being not natural.
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Postby didaktik » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:32 am

Paulhoff wrote:...ovens use infrared radiation...


Among other things:

http://www.hertzmann.com/articles/2006/heat

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Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:07 am

What about *queue sinister music* INDUCTION COOKING! *camera zooms in and out on a pot of boiling water*
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Postby didaktik » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:27 am

Major Malfunction wrote:What about *queue sinister music* INDUCTION COOKING!


Quit trying to put the kettle on, Polly. It's all in there, I assure you...

;^]

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Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:45 am

INDUCTION COOKING! It uses no NATURAL heating such as a flame or heating coil, something we all understand. It uses INVISIBLE RADIATION! *montage of radioactive warning signs, power plant cooling towers, waste containment facilities, ICBMs launching from silos, Hiroshima, Chernobyl, and a mushroom cloud*

To heat ONLY THE POT through a little-understood process scientists call "HYSTERESIS!"

Scientists assure us that hysteresis does not affect our food or our health and is caused by a "completely benign oscillating wavelength of electromagnetic raditaion". *flash radioactive warning sign*

But isn't that exactly what they said about MICROWAVE OVENS!? And we all know how dangerous they can be... *montage of eggs exploding in microwave ovens, headlines of people who put various bodyparts in ovens*

Could HYSTERESIS be the future WMD of chioce for World War III? One scientist we spoke to said, "Perhaps. The government has initiated several projects investigating the military applications for both microwave and hysteresis weapons." *CG images of satellites with beam weapons destroying cities*

The other scientists we contacted said they didn't, "have time to discuss ... theories with [us]." A cover up? We asked the government.

The government would neither confirm nor deny our inquiries when we called. The secretary said they were at lunch.

Weapons of Mass Hysteresis? Or Weapons of Mass Hysteria? That's what this reporter wants to know...
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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby Scully » Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:22 pm

VFX_Jeff wrote:Hi all,
I'm new to the forum and had a question for those in the know. I didn't use the search function for my question so don't flame me. Anyway, I have a client who insists microwave ovens are dangerous and affect the "vibration" of water making it unsafe for human consumption. Add to this the conspiracy theory that the FDA and other health organiztions don't want you to know this as they're getting kickbacks from the companies that develop new technology, etc,... nothing you haven't heard before.

Does anyone have any current info on this? Is microwaved food bad for you? Thanks for your time.


What do you do for a living, VFX_Jeff?

Just curious. When you say "client", certain fields come to mind. When you mix "client" with conspiracy theory, I start suspecting the mental health profession. I wanted to know if I was right. :wink:
"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality." - Ayn Rand

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Postby VFX_Jeff » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:42 pm

Scully,
I'm a personal trainer and martial arts instructor. Personal training can be alot like the mental health profession in that clients "download" on me constantly, telling me their problems, trial, tribulations, etc. I just never ask to hear these things and sometimes wish they'd just stick to the workout. Well, comes with the territory I guess :roll:

The client in question still insists microwaves are a danger. No amount of logical reasoning is effective. My response now is "okay, we need to focus on this next exercise. Ready, begin!"

What I find fascinating is the fact that this client has a law and nutrition degree, yet still believes these things. It just goes to show that credentials don't carry much weight if you simply parrot back answers to make it through higher education. Anyone can regurgitate facts and perform on tests, but digesting and understanding what you've learned, as well as retaining that knowledge is the key. Maintain what you've gained!

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Postby didaktik » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:58 am

The simple answer I give is that I simply don't know. If someone persists, I point out the available information, and tell them to decide for themselves. Everything creates consequences that are not always recognized until more knowledge is gained. There are many possibilites for Reality to bite one in the ass, microwaves being one small part of the potential ass-biting spectrum. I use microwave ovens for quick reheating of leftovers or frozen prepared foods, but as a method of cooking, it's lousy when compared to gas flame, of which induction is probably the electrical equivalent. Microwaves tend to make food "rubbery" for some reason, and the rapid internal heating drives off moisture and can render the average day-old bagel nearly inedible in short order. Like fast food in general, you sacrifice quality for convenience, so choose the weapon that works for you...

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Postby St. Jimmy » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:48 pm

Paulhoff wrote:The big problem is that most, (I would think like over 99 percent), people don't have a clue to how microwaves ovens work, but that goes for most thing in general anyway.


A teacher of mine once blamed the poor quality of an old audio cassette on mobile phones. It's the waves, you see!
When we pointed out that FM radio waves of exactly the same nature but simply a different frequency and wavelength had been passing "through" the cassette for many years before mobile hones had been invented, we were told to shut up.
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Postby Paulhoff » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:23 pm

St. Jimmy wrote:A teacher of mine once blamed the poor quality of an old audio cassette on mobile phones. It's the waves, you see!
When we pointed out that FM radio waves of exactly the same nature but simply a different frequency and wavelength had been passing "through" the cassette for many years before mobile hones had been invented, we were told to shut up.

Not only that but FM stations use a hell of a lot more power, and I have driven by many and have never had a problem, plus I am a amateur radio operator, and my signals are a lot closer and I again still have no problems. I guess it never occurred to the so-called science teacher that the tape losses the highs with each pass over the play heads, daaaaaaaa.

Paul

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They are not a very good science teacher if they don't investigate new information.
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Postby St. Jimmy » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:29 pm

I never said it was a science teacher.
German as it happens, but still. Our class is a physics specialst class, so she could certainly take our word for it.
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Postby Paulhoff » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:45 pm

Sorry, I read into it, I am not a lawyer, thank no-god for that. But a teacher should still be open to new information, and know where their expertise ends and state anything outside that is only their opinion.

Paul

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Postby didaktik » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:52 am

VFX_Jeff wrote:The client in question still insists microwaves are a danger. No amount of logical reasoning is effective. My response now is "okay, we need to focus on this next exercise. Ready, begin!"


An appropriate response under the circumstances. OTOH, a friend of mine who is a biochemist, and who uses microwave oves for reheating and boiling water, has concerns about how microwaves might affect metals within foods, as for instance, the cobalt in vitamin B12 (cobalamin). He does not have time to explore this particular issue, but thinks that caution is due. Not science, but the opinion of a trained scientist, FWIW. If you are interested, he can be contacted via his website:

http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org
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Postby St. Jimmy » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:49 pm

Paulhoff wrote:But a teacher should still be open to new information, and know where their expertise ends and state anything outside that is only their opinion.


The problem is when the teacher's field of expertise is limited to their native tongue. Any bilingual person can teach language.
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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby Mike Mitrosky » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:50 am

VFX_Jeff wrote:Hi all,
I'm new to the forum and had a question for those in the know. I didn't use the search function for my question so don't flame me. Anyway, I have a client who insists microwave ovens are dangerous and affect the "vibration" of water making it unsafe for human consumption. Add to this the conspiracy theory that the FDA and other health organiztions don't want you to know this as they're getting kickbacks from the companies that develop new technology, etc,... nothing you haven't heard before.

Does anyone have any current info on this? Is microwaved food bad for you? Thanks for your time.

I would avoid it.. Im sure it is harmful for you. Ive seen pictures of plants watered with microwaved water and they simply wither and die whereas the unmicrowaved watered plants stay healthy. Thats enough for me.

Maybe a skeptic needs more proof. But not I

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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby Pyrrho » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:08 am

Mike Mitrosky wrote:
VFX_Jeff wrote:Hi all,
I'm new to the forum and had a question for those in the know. I didn't use the search function for my question so don't flame me. Anyway, I have a client who insists microwave ovens are dangerous and affect the "vibration" of water making it unsafe for human consumption. Add to this the conspiracy theory that the FDA and other health organiztions don't want you to know this as they're getting kickbacks from the companies that develop new technology, etc,... nothing you haven't heard before.

Does anyone have any current info on this? Is microwaved food bad for you? Thanks for your time.

I would avoid it.. Im sure it is harmful for you. Ive seen pictures of plants watered with microwaved water and they simply wither and die whereas the unmicrowaved watered plants stay healthy. Thats enough for me.

Maybe a skeptic needs more proof. But not I

Being a skeptic, I'd want to see the experiment design, testing methods, and so on. For example, what kind of plants, distilled water or tap water, how long was it microwaved, what was the water temperature, what was the soil chemistry before and after, what were the "controls", were the tests double-blinded, how often were the plants watered (plants can wither and die from overwatering), how much water was given to each plant at each watering, were the water containers sterile, and so on.

I would not be convinced by photographs isolated from the experiment data.
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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby Mike Mitrosky » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:12 am

Jim Dominic wrote:
Mike Mitrosky wrote:
VFX_Jeff wrote:Hi all,
I'm new to the forum and had a question for those in the know. I didn't use the search function for my question so don't flame me. Anyway, I have a client who insists microwave ovens are dangerous and affect the "vibration" of water making it unsafe for human consumption. Add to this the conspiracy theory that the FDA and other health organiztions don't want you to know this as they're getting kickbacks from the companies that develop new technology, etc,... nothing you haven't heard before.

Does anyone have any current info on this? Is microwaved food bad for you? Thanks for your time.

I would avoid it.. Im sure it is harmful for you. Ive seen pictures of plants watered with microwaved water and they simply wither and die whereas the unmicrowaved watered plants stay healthy. Thats enough for me.

Maybe a skeptic needs more proof. But not I

Being a skeptic, I'd want to see the experiment design, testing methods, and so on. For example, what kind of plants, distilled water or tap water, how long was it microwaved, what was the water temperature, what was the soil chemistry before and after, what were the "controls", were the tests double-blinded, how often were the plants watered (plants can wither and die from overwatering), how much water was given to each plant at each watering, were the water containers sterile, and so on.

I would not be convinced by photographs isolated from the experiment data.

No I didnt think you would. And I cant give a scientific yes or no on it.. Its just that as far as Im concerned Id rather not take any chances with my body.. Like using a cellphone... maybe it doesnt hurt you do have it against your head all day but why take the chance.. I dont think it would be a good thing for one.

Personally, I would like to see a scientific study on the subject.. but the problem with that is that the people who pay for these studies alot of times have agendas that ensure that the desired outcome is always achieved.. there is always a point where one has to trust. To me it might as well be a 5th grade girl doing an experiemtn

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Re: Microwave ovens

Postby Paulhoff » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:53 am

Mike Mitrosky wrote:Its just that as far as Im concerned Id rather not take any chances with my body.

You do get into a car don't you.................

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Postby brainfart » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:55 am

Mike, there are a few fallacies that the sciencey-ness crew will try to hand you, but taste and sight tells me which water to use for tea or coffee.

RO water makes a big difference to flavour.

I haven't tried properly ionized water yet. : )

and some homeopathic theorists now enjoy the victory of a debatable milestone.

the question by PaulHoff is the essential answer to your concerns though.

I have been burned a couple of times with improper micro use, glass cups, etc., and I have no use for them now anyway other than as a sterilizer for washcloth size items.
Last edited by brainfart on Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
bltthhhhh

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Postby Paulhoff » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:59 am

I always find oak wood better for heating water than pine wood, the vibrations are just so much better.

Paul

:D :D :D

I'm off to cut down another oak tree.................
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given. - mine
There are those who know the path, and others who walk the path.
Never in the history of humankind, have so many, known so little, about so much.
Christianity, Years of fear. - mine

brainfart
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Postby brainfart » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:01 am

don't use no green or rotten wood, it'll get ya by the smoke...
bltthhhhh

Mike Mitrosky
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Postby Mike Mitrosky » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:01 am

brainfart wrote:Mike, there are a few fallacies that the sciencey-ness crew will try to hand you, but taste and sight tells me which water to use for tea or coffee.

RO water makes a big difference to flavour.

I haven't tried properly ionized water yet. : )

and some homeopathic theorists now enjoy the victory of a debatable milestone.

the question by PaulHoff is the essential answer to your concerns though.

I have been burned a couple of times with improper micro use, glass cups, etc., and I have no use for them now anyway other than as a sterilizer for washcloth size items.

Yeah its good for drying towels and such. heh
of course I coulda sounded real wacky that Ive read an apple microwaved will exhibit a kirlian photograph akin to arsenic.. but then hey.. you gotta believe in all that non scientific stuff....

brainfart
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Postby brainfart » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:17 am

they say that the homeopathic theory is insane, and then they get real defensive about allowing certain evidence to enter their set of known facts.

As if allowing a micro piece of evidence to be considered was so disturbing to their wall of evidence
bltthhhhh

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Paulhoff
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Postby Paulhoff » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:21 am

brainfart wrote:they say that the homeopathic theory is insane

Simple, it is insane, because if less is stronger then taking nothing would make it the strongest dose of all.

Paul

:D :D :D
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein
Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given. - mine
There are those who know the path, and others who walk the path.
Never in the history of humankind, have so many, known so little, about so much.
Christianity, Years of fear. - mine


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