Oil pulling

A skeptical look at medical practices

Re: Oil pulling

Post #201  Postby NeroXIV » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:48 pm

JJM wrote:
JB Mason wrote:If you're still skeptical, here's a fantastic opportunity to repeat a precise experiment and see if your results match those of the doctors who performed this study:  http://www.johcd.org/pdf/Effect_of_Oil_ ... ivitis.pdf  ...
That study was an uncontrolled, unblinded trial with only 10 subjects....

Plus, the same study was cited and responded to only 3 or 4 posts ago...
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Re: Pulling Oil

Post #202  Postby sputnik » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:10 am

There is some excellent information in this post. I find this Oil pulling stuff to be really interesting. I mean if you can supposedly remove toxins from your body by swishing oil around in your mouth for a little bit why not give it a try. Anyways, I found some interesting information that explaing what Pulling Oil, Oil pulling or whatever you want to call it is about. If anyone else is interested it can be found  -> http://pullingoil.skootu.com/2010/02/22/what-is-pulling-oil/. Does anyone know if this stuff actually works?
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Re: Pulling Oil

Post #203  Postby JJM » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:56 pm

sputnik wrote:There is some excellent information in this post. I find this Oil pulling stuff to be really interesting. I mean if you can supposedly remove toxins from your body ... Does anyone know if this stuff actually works?
"Detoxification" schemes (in the sCAM arena) are always bogus.  It certainly doesn't remove any "toxins."
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #204  Postby Nabarun Ghoshal » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:07 am

100 years ago, there were all such practices. How many patients were cured? Men died of Typhoid, Syphilis, Tuberculosis, Diabetes, Cholera, Peptic ulcer, Malaria, and many other common illnesses that even rural quacks can cure nowadays with the help of modern medicines. Even cancer and AIDS are also under some control. Small Pox has been eradicated. Heart surgeries are successful in more than 90% cases. The world population has tripled in this period due to curing of diseases, prevention of diseases by vaccination and control of perinatal deaths and post surgical deaths by effective aseptic procedures.

Whom should we give credit to this development? Obviously, to the persons dedicated to the development of the modern medical system and not to the dogmatic followers of older systems of medicines that has now a new name i.e. "Alternative Medicine".  Why go for an alternative to the system that has been proved to be most effective in treating diseases?

I think it is better to follow the medical science that has relieved mankind of a lot of owes in the last 100 years and is still engaged in further studies to find out more effective methods of treatment of diseases.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #205  Postby Rod » Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:51 am

I've been swishing Sesame Oil in my mouth b4 breakfast for 20 minutes each time for the past 12 days:

I suffer from:

-gingivitis, some bad teeth (paintful at times), plaque on my teeth

-Sinusitis


I can honestly say that I DO NOT FEEL AS ANYTHING HAS BEEN CHAGED in my situation. People who claim they've got some sort of result after only a few days are simply not telling the truth - I have not got any positive feelings from oil-pulling at all and so far it has proved to be a waste of time and energy BUT ... I am going to continue with it for at least another 2 months and then I will make another post here.

In fact the only thing that stops my gums from bleeding and stops the pain a bit, is salt-water and not oil-pulling, not in my so far experience!



My teeth's colour has not become any whiter at all and I am very disappointed.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #206  Postby Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:36 pm

Rod wrote:I've been swishing Sesame Oil in my mouth b4 breakfast for 20 minutes each time for the past 12 days:

I suffer from:

-gingivitis, some bad teeth (paintful at times), plaque on my teeth

-Sinusitis


I can honestly say that I DO NOT FEEL AS ANYTHING HAS BEEN CHAGED in my situation. People who claim they've got some sort of result after only a few days are simply not telling the truth - I have not got any positive feelings from oil-pulling at all and so far it has proved to be a waste of time and energy BUT ... I am going to continue with it for at least another 2 months and then I will make another post here.

In fact the only thing that stops my gums from bleeding and stops the pain a bit, is salt-water and not oil-pulling, not in my so far experience!



My teeth's colour has not become any whiter at all and I am very disappointed.



This suggests that we should better stick to the scientific treatment that has helped mankind get rid of many ailments that were thought to be irrevocable curses on man. The other kinds of medicine had their day, but now it is better to go for the evolved form.
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Re: I challenge you

Post #207  Postby Rod » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:05 pm

NeroXIV wrote:
Molly Bloom wrote:Try the oil pulling.  I want to hear from every one of you how stupid it is after about 2 weeks.

My sister tried it for two weeks. It didn't do anything for her. It's stupid.


Yes, I agree. I'm going to stop, it's a waste of time - I'd rather use the sesame oil I'm using for my cooking and save myself the money!

I'm amazed at how some people manage to make themselves  believe that this stuff works - how come some people claim oil-pulling whitens their teeth and it's had no effect on mine? Aren't all humans' teeth made of the same stuff??!
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Re: I challenge you

Post #208  Postby Nabarun Ghoshal » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:46 pm

Rod wrote:
NeroXIV wrote:
Molly Bloom wrote:Try the oil pulling.  I want to hear from every one of you how stupid it is after about 2 weeks.

My sister tried it for two weeks. It didn't do anything for her. It's stupid.


Yes, I agree. I'm going to stop, it's a waste of time - I'd rather use the sesame oil I'm using for my cooking and save myself the money!

I'm amazed at how some people manage to make themselves  believe that this stuff works - how come some people claim oil-pulling whitens their teeth and it's had no effect on mine? Aren't all humans' teeth made of the same stuff??!


Rational thinking needs a scientific bent of mind which still most people are lacking in.
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Re: I challenge you

Post #209  Postby Gord » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:42 pm

Rod wrote:
NeroXIV wrote:
Molly Bloom wrote:Try the oil pulling.  I want to hear from every one of you how stupid it is after about 2 weeks.

My sister tried it for two weeks. It didn't do anything for her. It's stupid.


Yes, I agree. I'm going to stop, it's a waste of time - I'd rather use the sesame oil I'm using for my cooking and save myself the money!

I'm amazed at how some people manage to make themselves  believe that this stuff works - how come some people claim oil-pulling whitens their teeth and it's had no effect on mine? Aren't all humans' teeth made of the same stuff??!

I hear George Washington's were carved out of cherry wood.
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Re: I challenge you

Post #210  Postby Nabarun Ghoshal » Sun May 02, 2010 3:15 am

Gord wrote:
Rod wrote:
NeroXIV wrote:
Molly Bloom wrote:Try the oil pulling.  I want to hear from every one of you how stupid it is after about 2 weeks.

My sister tried it for two weeks. It didn't do anything for her. It's stupid.


Yes, I agree. I'm going to stop, it's a waste of time - I'd rather use the sesame oil I'm using for my cooking and save myself the money!

I'm amazed at how some people manage to make themselves  believe that this stuff works - how come some people claim oil-pulling whitens their teeth and it's had no effect on mine? Aren't all humans' teeth made of the same stuff??!

I hear George Washington's were carved out of cherry wood.


Where did you hear it? Was it aired by some carpenters' enterprise?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #211  Postby numan » Mon May 03, 2010 6:03 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:I think it is better to follow the medical science that has relieved mankind of a lot of owes in the last 100 years and is still engaged in further studies to find out more effective methods of treatment of diseases.

All the points you make are good ones, but you (surprisingly!) ignore the evil effects capitalist exploitation has had on medicine. Here in North America, medicine is big business, and the purpose of this business is to make money, and not to help people. People are brainwashed by the big pharmaceutical companies and medical suppliers to do things which not only do not help but which harm! More profits that way! The Hippocratic Oath is a dead letter.

So yes, scientific medicine is to be respected, but capitalist medicine? Definitely not! Let the buyer beware!

Our medical system is said to have been reduced to "knives and poisons." There is some truth to that.

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Re: I challenge you

Post #212  Postby Gord » Tue May 04, 2010 6:00 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Gord wrote:I hear George Washington's were carved out of cherry wood.


Where did you hear it? Was it aired by some carpenters' enterprise?

No.  MADtv, I think.
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Re: Oil pulling - want to try an experiment?

Post #213  Postby matthewcornell » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:09 pm

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post. I'm skeptical of the claims, but I'm willing to try it out as an experiment. Is anyone interested joining me on Edison (http://edison.thinktrylearn.com/)? My periodontist, who keeps his mind open (thought doesn't let his brain fall out :-) hadn't heard of it, but his top-of-the-head thought was that it might make sense (I forget his rationale). I'll ask my excellent hygienist next month about the risks, though they sound minimal given the above discussion. (Dental side note: I'm running another personal experiment, "adopt a new oral care regime," at http://edison.thinktrylearn.com/experiments/show/149)

Cheers!

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Re: Oil pulling

Post #214  Postby Graumagier » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:11 pm

numan wrote:So yes, scientific medicine is to be respected, but capitalist medicine? Definitely not! Let the buyer beware!

So, what about big sCAM with their billion-dollar industry?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #215  Postby lagoonal » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:51 pm

Some of you are honestly really hilarious in your stern denial of anything natural. Do I believe oil pulling can help you rid the most devastating disease. No. But do I have these diseases? No. Because the guy above comes back with his NON scientific view on oil pulling now we should all believe him. It's as if skeptics are okay believing skeptics yet they cannot handle when someone that is a so called 'believer' presents his or her benefits. They should be completely ignored in your world. Holistic medicine came along a lot sooner than any sort of pharma concoction and it does have to be said just about every pharma patent is from a plant or extract that came from nature. You people need to get a clue. Your science is refined natural therapy. Now it is a BIG business of crooks and false claims.

As a student of history I find it very humorous that all of you proponents of science forget that it is the modern world that has introduced most of our diseases to the original cultures. That simply cannot be argued. I am a half and half here. Meaning half science and half natural. I just find some of you to be completely redundant and obscured.

But I must say oil pulling has worked wonders along with sea salt therapies for my mouth. Indeed, oil pulling has made my teeth a shade whiter, nothing extreme, but it is indeed noticeable. I oil pull once every couple days or so. I guess I could notice that my mouth felt better after about a month. And it very much helps when I drink alcohol hard and the oral parts feel terrible the day after. I'm oil pulling now lol! Anyway, this therapy DEFINITELY has oral benefits whether you want to believe I don't care. But come on. If you have teeth problems you have diet problems.

This stuff isn't going to FIX YOUR LIFE IMO. You need to get those minerals and vitamins, too. Strange things happen in this world. I don't have a debilitating disease and I have never had to use this as such. But with regular sea salt washes and oil pulling I feel very comfortable that I am doing the best I can for my teeth. I do have an upper back wisdom tooth that needs to be kept in check because a small part of it cracked so this definitely helps kill bacteria in my experience. I use organic sunflower oil.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #216  Postby lagoonal » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:58 pm

I don't see an edit button so I must say this: your mind is your most powerful tool. If you go into anything dead set on failing you will indeed fail. Just a word of help. You cannot possibly sit there oil pulling while thinking negative thoughts about oil pulling and how it is all bull**** and then expect things to be perfect. Try not thinking about it at all. Try thinking hey I am trying to do something right for my body and it is going to help. And give it time. If you feel nothing has worked after a month then think about other ways to help yourself. And start with your diet. Whole foods, sprouted foods, minerals like magnesium and calcium in balance, exercise, etc. It has been researched and documented how negative thoughts can turn our body's PH into a catastrophe. Keep that in mind. Your body's PH and food you eat are intrinsically linked. Simple Lemon water is one of the most alkaline and healthy detox's you could ever hope for.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #217  Postby Gord » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:41 pm

lagoonal wrote:Some of you are honestly really hilarious in your stern denial of anything natural. Do I believe oil pulling can help you rid the most devastating disease. No. But do I have these diseases? No. Because the guy above comes back with his NON scientific view on oil pulling now we should all believe him. It's as if skeptics are okay believing skeptics yet they cannot handle when someone that is a so called 'believer' presents his or her benefits. They should be completely ignored in your world. Holistic medicine came along a lot sooner than any sort of pharma concoction and it does have to be said just about every pharma patent is from a plant or extract that came from nature. You people need to get a clue. Your science is refined natural therapy. Now it is a BIG business of crooks and false claims.

Skeptics don't particularly care who makes extraordinary claims, we care about the evidence.  Show us the evidence, rather than making unsupported claims, and we'll all look at it.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #218  Postby Bunyip » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:42 am

Some oils are very good indeed and there is a lo tof evidence to support many of the claims of health benefits.

I use only extra virgin olive oil in cooking. I also take fish oil as soil for arthritis and heart,.recommended by my doctor and bought from my local pharmacy.  

I'm also put in mind of the film  "Lorenzo's Oil". 'based on the true story' of Augusto and  Michaela Odone.

 Augusto Odone (born May 4, 1933) and Michaela Teresa Murphy Odone (January 10, 1939 – June 10, 2000) are the parents of Lorenzo Odone (May 29, 1978 – May 30, 2008), a child afflicted with the illness adrenoleukodystrophy (ALD). They became famous for discovering a treatment using Lorenzo's oil, for their son's "incurable" illness, and this quest was recounted in the film Lorenzo's Oil (1992). [1]

In recognition of the parents' work, Augusto Odone has received an honorary doctorate from the University of Stirling. He continues to raise funds and drive the scientific task force known as The Myelin Project. Michaela Odone battled cancer for some time, and finally died of lung cancer at 61.[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_odone


Taking any new medicine or supplement is fine,if it is supported by evidence.  Does it matter if the person is not being swindled out of money they cannot afford and are not harming themselves?. In my opinion, there is a limit to which anyone can or should go to protect adults  from the consequences of their own  behaviour.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #219  Postby Graumagier » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:10 pm

Bunyip wrote:I'm also put in mind of the film  "Lorenzo's Oil". 'based on the true story' of Augusto and  Michaela Odone.

I don't know the movie, but did you actually read up on the evidence supporting Lorenzo's oil?

Bunyip wrote:Does it matter if the person is not being swindled out of money they cannot afford and are not harming themselves?

That seems to be a fine attitude for CAM practitioners, but real medical professionals do have an ethical code…
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #220  Postby exgringo » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:39 am

If it supposedly "pulls" toxic metals out of the mouth you could test the oil before and after the "swishing" using a mass spectrometer.

Also there is some evidence of olive oil waste being used for heavy metal adsorption in industrial applications.
http://www.aseanfood.info/Articles/11017594.pdf

Don't know if the same principles could be applied?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #221  Postby Graumagier » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:37 pm

exgringo wrote:Don't know if the same principles could be applied?

Given that your oral cavity is chock full with heavy metals, sur–oh, wait…
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #222  Postby cigana » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:51 am

Dear all,

I am a professional scientist and have recently started oil pulling (about 2.5 weeks ago). My motivation was to try to reduce daily tooth pain, which my dentist has not been able to help me with. I am truly amazed by the results - my tooth ache has reduced by about 60%. But other than that the small bumps on the back of my arms (keratosis pilaris) have reduced by about 80%. This was something totally unexpected and I had no idea oil pulling would produce changes in my body other than in my mouth. How this works I have no idea.

Other changes I've noticed are an increase in the quality of my facial skin (smoother, cleaner), reduced bags under my eyes and no more "sleep" in my eyes when I awake.

I am looking forward to more success.

If anyone out there has problems which may be helped by oil pulling, please don't be put off by the lack of medical trials - these are unlikely to ever happen given the amount of skepticism present on this website!

I would also add that I follow what I believe to be a very healthy diet (all unprocessed whole grains with lots of vegetables [particularly green leafy], pulses and some fruit). This may be one reason why oil pulling works for some and not others.

Cheers,

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Re: Oil pulling

Post #223  Postby Graumagier » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:19 am

Allright, let's play a game of "spot that logical fallacy"!

cigana wrote:I am a professional scientist

Argument from authority.

cigana wrote:I am truly amazed by the results - my tooth ache has reduced by about 60%.

Appealing to anecdotal evidence.

cigana wrote:But other than that the small bumps on the back of my arms (keratosis pilaris) have reduced by about 80%.

Appeal to anecdotal evidence.

cigana wrote:Other changes I've noticed are an increase in the quality of my facial skin (smoother, cleaner), reduced bags under my eyes and no more "sleep" in my eyes when I awake.

And even more appeals to anecdotal evidence. Plus, how would the severity of sleep eyes be any reasonable outcome to measure? Just curious…

cigana wrote:I am looking forward to more success.

Falling for expectation bias.

cigana wrote:If anyone out there has problems which may be helped by oil pulling, please don't be put off by the lack of medical trials - these are unlikely to ever happen given the amount of skepticism present on this website!

Hmm. Here we have a straw man, an appeal to rebellion, and an appeal to "absence of evidence is no evidence of absence". Nice one!

cigana wrote:I would also add that I follow what I believe to be a very healthy diet (all unprocessed whole grains with lots of vegetables [particularly green leafy], pulses and some fruit). This may be one reason why oil pulling works for some and not others.

And of course a nice naturalistic fallacy to top it off, plus a cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Not bad for starters, maybe jam a stronger appeal to popularity in there and it's nearly perfect.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #224  Postby cigana » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:05 pm

Dear Graumagier,

Not quite sure what the "logical fallacy" is - could you explain?

--Argument from authority.

The reason I put this in was to encourage those who might not try it otherwise. If what you are suggesting is that I'm suggesting by putting this in that it lends weight to the idea that OP might work, then you'd be right in your criticism. For those of you reading this - please ignore the fact that I say I am a scientist.

--Appealing to anecdotal evidence.

Yes.

--Appealing to anecdotal evidence.

Yep.

--And even more appeals to anecdotal evidence.

Right.

--Plus, how would the severity of sleep eyes be any reasonable outcome to measure? Just curious…

No idea. Just thought I'd mention all changes I've noticed.

--Falling for expectation bias.

I certainly am.

--Hmm. Here we have a straw man, an appeal to rebellion,

Yes a straw man and an appeal to rebellion. That was my real aim in posting - to potentially help people. I thought that since it has helped me it would be a shame if others didn't at least try it for themselves, and this post was simply about encouraging others. It is no proof whatsoever, just an encouragement for other to try it.

--and an appeal to "absence of evidence is no evidence of absence". Nice one!

Yes I think so.

--And of course a nice naturalistic fallacy to top it off,

I think there's sufficient evidence in the literature that whole grains, fruits and vegetables constitute a healthy diet. Regardless I mention it in order to potentially give people a possible understanding of why it might work in some cases and not others.

--plus a cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Sorry don't know what this means

--Not bad for starters

As what? What am I claiming my post to be that it isn't?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #225  Postby Graumagier » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:34 pm

cigana wrote:As what? What am I claiming my post to be that it isn't?

Nothing. I was just pointing out the reasons why your anecdote is neither evidence of the efficacy of oil pulling, nor a reasonable datapoint to even start to suspect that there is such efficacy. In summary, I'm not sure why you would post such a thing on a scientifically oriented board, since there is absolutely nothing scientific about it.
Last edited by Graumagier on Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #226  Postby cigana » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:19 pm

I see, thanks for clarifying Graumagier. Just to let people know my reasons, here they are:

A while back I'd considered OP as treatment for my keratosis pilaris as I'd heard on another forum that it had cured some people's KP. I was very skeptical and negan a search on the internet to find out if there was any reasonable science to back this up. I came across this forum and it helped convince me not to bother trying. The other convincing factors were that every OP website I came across appeared to be written by cranks and it all felt "made up".

Only after my sister had success with helping her toothache did I try out of desperation. I was so astonished by the results I again went online to try to find out if anybody had any idea how this could work - I wanted to know if I could even improve my "technique" and what other benefits it could have - if oil in my mouth had affected the skin on my arms, what else might it be doing? Again I came across this forum, but with the benefit of having actually tried it for myself. Thinking of people like my former self, who was put off by forums like this, I decided to write a post, in the hope of encouraging those who might actually benefit to give it a try. I also wanted to mention my diet as I feel that has itself reduced the keratosis somewhat, and it might be a reason why some people have not had success with OP.

By the way, for anyone out there who finds this works for them - do you know of any scientifically-oriented forums where these kind of techniques are discussed?

Thanks. Cig
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #227  Postby Graumagier » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:59 pm

Now look. I'm not going to argue with you about the experiences you made. But I want to point out that your case is a perfect example for a) the placebo effect, b) mixing various treatments (especially as a "last resort", even though your conditions are fairly mild) and attributing a positive course to the least credible one even in the absence of any reasonable evidence to support that conclusion and c) for entirely failing to comprehend the possible mechanism of action of an alleged treatment and wildly extrapolating from that misunderstanding. So far, an interesting example and in that context not at all misplaced in a sceptical forum.

cigana wrote:By the way, for anyone out there who finds this works for them - do you know of any scientifically-oriented forums where these kind of techniques are discussed?

As soon as you start to investigate oil pulling scientifically you realize that there is no credible mechanism of action. Combine that with the virtual absence of published data except for oral hygiene (with very unimpressive results) and you pretty much have a nonexistent effect.

Just out of curiosity, what line of work are you in?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #228  Postby cigana » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:32 pm

(a) could well be
(b) I changed to a whole-food-based diet 11 months ago. It could be that virtually all of the changes that diet could bring about have happened to occur since oil pulling (in the last two weeks). Nothing else I can think of might be called a treatment (this is a recurring problem and I've tried other treatments without success over the years but not recently). That doesn't mean it's not something else I haven't considered, you are right.
(c) I have entirely failed to comprehend the possible mechanism, yes. Does an expression of hope by one individual represent an "extrapolation"? I wouldn't really say so.

--So far, an interesting example and in that context not at all misplaced in a sceptical forum.

Agreed.

--As soon as you start to investigate oil pulling scientifically you realize that there is no credible mechanism of action.

If you say so.

--Combine that with the virtual absence of published data except for oral hygiene (with very unimpressive results) and you pretty much have a nonexistent effect.

And that is why it's unlikely to be scientifically studied any time soon.

--Just out of curiosity, what line of work are you in?

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For anybody out there who has keratosis pilaris and who would like to experiment, try the following: eat a diet based virtually completely on whole foods, that is unprocessed grains with plenty of vegetables and fruit. Make sure you eat at least 100g of raw leafy green vegetables per day and 300g of cooked. Supplement with vitamin B12 and 1-2g of fish oil and 0.2g of evening primrose oil. Most of this is based on the diets recommended by Dr's J.Furhman and J.McDougall. Do this for six months, then try oil pulling once daily, with cold-pressed sunflower oil. That's what I did and it seems to have made a huge difference. What I am saying does not constitute a proof. It is merely a piece of advice from one human being to another, based purely on my personal experiences. I have not gone to great lengths to think through my arguments and I am not a biological/medical scientist, just reporting what it is that I think has worked for me. If it doesn't work, fine, if it does, great.

I will probably no longer check this forum regularly and am not particularly inclined to defend or promote my posts.

Best wishes,

Cigana
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #229  Postby Graumagier » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:46 pm

cigana wrote:(c) I have entirely failed to comprehend the possible mechanism, yes. Does an expression of hope by one individual represent an "extrapolation"? I wouldn't really say so.

Extrapolation from a perceived effect, possibly random, possibly purely subjective, to a whole lot of other effects was what I was referring to.

As I said I don't want to argue about the specific experience you made, I just wanted to point out possible points of error or misinterpretation/-perception. Since you seem to be aware of most of them you're of course free to stick to your opinion.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #230  Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:20 pm

cigana wrote:What I am saying does not constitute a proof. It is merely a piece of advice from one human being to another, based purely on my personal experiences. I have not gone to great lengths to think through my arguments and I am not a biological/medical scientist, just reporting what it is that I think has worked for me. If it doesn't work, fine, if it does, great.


Well, at least you're clear about your lack of evidence.

But doesn't this make your advice almost worthless?  Advice from a well informed source who's validated the claims would be valuable and provide actionable guidelines for seeking better health results.  But this...?

If I said "Well, I don't have any proof, but putting a grapefruit in my bum has cured me of [fill in the blank]", would you be inclined to begin adding some extra citrus and some KY jelly to your grocery list?  Would you actually consider a Sunkist enema without any more evidence than my baseless claim?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #231  Postby Gord » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:46 pm

cigana wrote:... please don't be put off by the lack of medical trials - these are unlikely to ever happen given the amount of skepticism present on this website!

No, please, go right ahead and perform medical trials.  I'd like to see the results.

(Although why a skeptics website would prevent you from doing them, I have no idea.  Is there something you're leaving out?  Something that would prevent you from conducting medical trials if it came to light?  Yes, that must be it, it's the only logical conclusion.)

cigana wrote:I will probably no longer check this forum regularly and am not particularly inclined to defend or promote my posts.

Oh, well, never mind then. :?

"Professional scientist" my fat Greek arse.  Make that more of an "anecdotal hit-and-runner."
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #232  Postby NeroXIV » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:01 pm

Haha, that exchange made my day! Nice fallacy breakdown, Graumagier. Pearls before swine, I guess.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #233  Postby JJM » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:04 am

cigana wrote:...  By the way, for anyone out there who finds this works for them - do you know of any scientifically-oriented forums where these kind of techniques are discussed?   Thanks. Cig
To you, what constitutes "scientifically-oriented?"  

Early in this thread, the evidence for oil-pulling was presented and analyzed, and found scientifically lacking.  It was also deemed an unlikely remedy based on consideration of physiology.  What more do you want?
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #234  Postby Graumagier » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:53 am

JJM wrote:What more do you want?

"I just wanna believe"…
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #235  Postby matthewcornell » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:26 pm

Thanks again for the great discussion, everyone. We have someone testing it on Edison, the Think, Try, Learn experimenter's journal (http://edison.thinktrylearn.com/): http://edison.thinktrylearn.com/experiments/show/183

It kicked up a little back-and-forth about how to make it a more valid experiment, which motivated me to write up a little design to test it. I'd love your comments. It is:

What's a Good Experimental Design to Test "Oil Pulling"?
http://www.matthewcornell.org/blog/2010 ... lling.html

Happy experimenting!

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Re: Oil pulling

Post #236  Postby exgringo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:09 pm

1)  Test saliva for heavy metals.
2)  Test oil (before swishing) for heavy metals.
3)  Test oil (after swishing) for heavy metals.

Use modern testing equipment and techniques to compare before and after oil for metals.
(you can spit on the grass if you want, but that has nothing to do with scientific method)
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #237  Postby JJM » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:23 pm

exgringo wrote:1)  Test saliva for heavy metals.
2)  Test oil (before swishing) for heavy metals.
3)  Test oil (after swishing) for heavy metals.  ...
Your suggestion is quite simple and effective; at the same time it is too sophisticated for detoxification enthusiasts.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #238  Postby Lamasa1 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:19 am

The effects of oil pulling on plaque induced gingivitis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19336860
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #239  Postby Gord » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:52 am

Lamasa1 wrote:The effects of oil pulling on plaque induced gingivitis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19336860

Thanks.

Here's an online PDF called Oil pulling – Unraveling the path to mystic cure (from the J. Int Oral Health 2010) which seems to use the linked study as a source:

Another study conducted by Asokan et al (2008) showed a definitive reduction in the Streptococcus mutans count in plaque and saliva after oil pulling therapy.9

9. Asokan S, Rathan J, Muthu M.S, Rathna Prabhu V, Emmadi P, Raghuraman, Chamundeswari;Effect of oil pulling on Streptococcus mutans count in plaque and saliva using Dentocult SM Strip mutans test: A randomized, controlled, triple-blind study. J Indian Soc Pedod Prevent Dent – March 2008; 12-16.
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Re: Oil pulling

Post #240  Postby Student2_9 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:43 pm

First, I must say that I am very disappointed with the reasoning involved in this thread, on both sides of the issue. So many assumptions!
    Regarding kebod's personal experience: This is interesting, and worth noting, but only anecdotally, as it proves nothing. Personal experience is just that -- personal. You cannot, and should not, impose that on others and expect acceptance, regardless of whether you are convinced of your experience's authenticity. This is an agreement we must follow out of a mutual respect and objectivity.
    Regarding ShellyD99's grass experiment: This is based entirely on hearsay, and, also, proves nothing. It hinges entirely on your mother being told by a third party that the spent oil killed grass; this poses several flaws. One: How is this third party to be believed? This person could've been exaggerating or outright fibbing, which leads to the second problem: What if oil pulling is, in fact, effective at somehow removing toxins from the mouth, yet those toxins are not harmful vegetation? Etcetera, etcetera.
    Reading this post, I see a general air of out-of-hand dismissal, which is infinitely dangerous, as much as blind acceptance, if not more so. Gullibility goes both ways: your perception is just as susceptible to cynicism and prejudices as it is over-optimism and straw-grasping. If one is to stay objective, these are pitfalls which must be avoided at all costs, whether you're seeking to vindicate, or debunk (and, since we are remaining so objective, should we ever seek to do one instead of the other? :o ). I quote the forum's credo: promoting science and critical thinking. Well, this kind of scoffing rejection is far out of line with that standard. The scientific method demands we suspend our disbelief when investigating a hypothesis, just as critical thinking demands we suspend our ego.
    Case in point, in my research of oil pulling, my first thought was the obvious: How could oil possibly "pull" toxins from the mouth? From what I've read, the basic explanation is, the oil's acid binds to these "toxins" and leaches them from the gums; nowhere have I seen mention of veins beneath the tongue until reading kebod's post. As several have pointed out, there are flaws in this model, and I agree with this, as far as my uneducated understanding of the mouth will allow. However, simultaneously, I've read a multitude of subjective (though unsolicited) reports involving tangible results that cannot be immediately dismissed as placebo or circumstance. One subjective case report is, in itself, dismissible; many, however, demands further investigation. Which begs the question: Could there be some other, unknown mechanism at play in oil pulling?
    From what has been stated here, that's impossible, but this too is flawed logic, as it assumes that all is known in regards to oil pulling, which is simply not true -- have there been any studies of oil pulling? And furthermore, any reliable ones? As far as I know, there have been none; my research has turned up only speculation and assumptions, again, on both sides of the issue. No, there is a big, gaping unknown in regards to this remedy, and the wise skeptic will always consider the unknown, and draw conclusions accordingly.
   So, in light of what has been said here and what I've encountered in my research on the issue, I would suspend judgment on oil pulling's validity until a sound scientific study can be done. While the purported mechanism of action is certainly questionable, there remain too many unknowns, as well as too many interesting case-reports, to draw a reliably objective conclusion.

Edit:
Silly me. I only read the first page of this thread, unaware of the other five. Apparently, there have been studies done, as evinced by the later posts, but still, I stand by my conclusion: there is currently not enough evidence to make judgment either way.
Last edited by Student2_9 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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