Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

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Cadmusteeth
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Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Cadmusteeth » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:24 pm

“Back in the bad old days of autism they thought it was caused by “refrigerator mothers”.

Well, right now, some psychiatrists have decided that the best treatment for autism is something not that far removed from sticking them in a refrigerator – literally. Enter “Le Packing”, which is the target of an unprecedented consensus statement just out from a list of 18 big-name autism experts (available free here).
This alleged therapy consists of wrapping the patient (wearing only underclothes or naked in the case of young children) several times a week during weeks or months in towels soaked in cold water (10°C to 15°C). The individual is wrapped with blankets to help the body warm up in a process lasting 45 minutes, during which time the child or adolescent is accompanied by two to four staff persons.
The alleged goal of this technique is to “allow the child to rid him- or herself progressively of its pathological defense mechanisms against archaic anxieties,” by achieving “a greater perception and integration of the body, and a growing sense of containment.”“

Continues here:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuro ... 2r5naRMGEf

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby landrew » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:15 pm

Sorta like a different kinda shock treatment then?
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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:45 pm

Laughter Torture is the best medicine.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby TJrandom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:28 pm

How many have died?

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Wordbird » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:50 pm

How many come in a pack, how much does it cost, and how long does it keep? Just the 45 minutes, or longer if you refrigerate it? Also, do you just have to refrigerate after opening, or do you have to pop it in the fridge as soon as you get it?

(I am actually not dismissing out of hand that this kind of torture could desensitise the children to their own autism along with the torture.)

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Cadmusteeth » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:17 am

It's among the worst kinds of psudoscience. No one in the scientific community condones this as an actual science. (Read the article if you don't want to take my word for it.)

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby landrew » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:23 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:It's among the worst kinds of psudoscience. No one in the scientific community condones this as an actual science. (Read the article if you don't want to take my word for it.)

But what if it actually works? Trash it anyway?
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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Wordbird » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:23 am

Honestly, sometimes you gotta throw {!#%@} at the wall until something sticks.

No one else has cured autism. I support their right to try.

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby TJrandom » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:07 am

Wordbird wrote:Honestly, sometimes you gotta throw {!#%@} at the wall until something sticks.

No one else has cured autism. I support their right to try.


Agreed - just so long as those who try, but kill their kids in the process, get dropped out of airliners at 10,000 feet - preferably over the city in which they lived, for all to see. (Or some such...)

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Cadmusteeth » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:44 pm

landrew wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:It's among the worst kinds of psudoscience. No one in the scientific community condones this as an actual science. (Read the article if you don't want to take my word for it.)

But what if it actually works? Trash it anyway?

Read the dang article. Patients who received that treatment developed heart problems. Does that sound like it works?

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby landrew » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:23 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
landrew wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:It's among the worst kinds of psudoscience. No one in the scientific community condones this as an actual science. (Read the article if you don't want to take my word for it.)

But what if it actually works? Trash it anyway?

Read the dang article. Patients who received that treatment developed heart problems. Does that sound like it works?

More abstractly; if the treatment is deemed the lesser of two evils by some doctors, should it still be condemned?
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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby TJrandom » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:49 pm

The lesser of what other evil? A refusal to eat can be treated with an IV drip. Self mutilation by gloves or tethers in the worst cases. Having read the article, it seems to me that administration of punishment is at the core - eat or we will package you again. Wasn`t it Silence of the Lambs - rub the lotion on the skin or you will get the hose again?

Where are the medical trials and results on this?

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby landrew » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:11 pm

TJrandom wrote:The lesser of what other evil? A refusal to eat can be treated with an IV drip. Self mutilation by gloves or tethers in the worst cases. Having read the article, it seems to me that administration of punishment is at the core - eat or we will package you again. Wasn`t it Silence of the Lambs - rub the lotion on the skin or you will get the hose again?

Where are the medical trials and results on this?

You're not understanding this. Every treatment has side effects, sometimes quite severe, yet they are still used.
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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Cadmusteeth » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:44 pm

Did you read the article?

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby landrew » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:18 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:Did you read the article?

Twice in fact; a second time to placate your concerns.
I am not a supporter nor a detractor. I am engaging in the debate by bringing out an argument from a point of view not yet discussed.
Now, please get back to the debate and stop worrying about what I read.
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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Cadmusteeth » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:33 am

landrew wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:
landrew wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:It's among the worst kinds of psudoscience. No one in the scientific community condones this as an actual science. (Read the article if you don't want to take my word for it.)

But what if it actually works? Trash it anyway?

Read the dang article. Patients who received that treatment developed heart problems. Does that sound like it works?

More abstractly; if the treatment is deemed the lesser of two evils by some doctors, should it still be condemned?

If it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny in the medical community then what does it matter what those few doctors think?

We have reached the consensus that practitioners and families around the world should consider this approach unethical. Furthermore, this “therapy” ignores current knowledge about autism spectrum disorders; goes against evidence-based practice…and, in our view, poses a risk of preventing these children and adolescents from accessing their basic human rights to health and education.

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Wordbird » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:32 am

landrew wrote:More abstractly; if the treatment is deemed the lesser of two evils by some doctors, should it still be condemned?


That's a really good question. Ideally since the value of any side effect you put on the plate is subjective, the subject should decide if the treatment is worth it to him.

But when you're dealing with human beings who aren't capable of making those decisions, you can either fully saddle the parent with the responsibility, meaning she won't get punished even if the kid dies, or you can try to determine some objective standard of how much the patient was helped or harmed, and if the benefit was "worth it" or not.

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby landrew » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:07 am

Wordbird wrote:
landrew wrote:More abstractly; if the treatment is deemed the lesser of two evils by some doctors, should it still be condemned?


That's a really good question. Ideally since the value of any side effect you put on the plate is subjective, the subject should decide if the treatment is worth it to him.

But when you're dealing with human beings who aren't capable of making those decisions, you can either fully saddle the parent with the responsibility, meaning she won't get punished even if the kid dies, or you can try to determine some objective standard of how much the patient was helped or harmed, and if the benefit was "worth it" or not.

A friend of mine had a severely debilitating form of rheumatoid arthritis. Without treatment, he was reduced to writhing in pain on the floor, and it was deforming his body.
He was offered a drug which promised to eliminate all the negative effects of the disease, but he was warned that could significantly increase his risk of contracting leukemia. He signed the papers and took the treatments at his own risk. He had about 5 good years, free of the disease almost entirely, but one day a few years ago he went for a checkup and he was diagnosed with a rapid form of leukemia. He was dead within 3 weeks.
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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby Wordbird » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:18 am

landrew wrote:He was offered a drug which promised to eliminate all the negative effects of the disease, but he was warned that could significantly increase his risk of contracting leukemia. He signed the papers and took the treatments at his own risk. He had about 5 good years, free of the disease almost entirely, but one day a few years ago he went for a checkup and he was diagnosed with a rapid form of leukemia. He was dead within 3 weeks.


And we say this is okay because the patient accepted the risk. It would even be okay if he'd caught hyper-leukemia and somehow melted into white blood cell goop the very next day. His hand spun the Russian Roulette wheel.

Severely autistic kids can't spin the wheel. So how do we handle these sorts of risks? How do we objectively decide what's best for another human being?

In reality, we make them wards of their parents. We let the parents decide. The parents can make a mistake, though, just like your friend could have.

To me, you have to let the parent make any mistake if you're going to saddle them with that burden - the burden of being responsible for someone who can't be responsible for themself.

If you prove negligence, that's one thing - perhaps the parent wanted to pack little Screamin' Demon in the freezer to get rid of it and there's some evidence of this - but if you're going to make the parent the moral agent for Billy's welfare, you have to give them the same right to make a mistake or miscalculate as you'd give Billy if he was capable.

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Re: Packing Autistic Kids: A French Scandal

Postby TJrandom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:34 am

I don`t believe the article claimed, or the treatment produced, any objectively identified improvements. Hence I asked about trials - controlled, with results quantified. If for example, this lead to 4 out of 5 no longer being autistic (or even some lesser improvement), but one out of five died, I would be OK with that. But where the benefit appears to be entirely subjective and only in the minds of the practitioners, then I`d ban it pending a scientific study/trial.


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