Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

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Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:46 am

Started getting into a kerfuffle thats brewing between Sam and Ezra over the Charles Murray racial IQ disparity thing. Both interesting in themselvz, but I started thinking about the entire genre uv filisofical lecturez.

Iz this a growing venue for intellectualz to pursue az a career? Are sheepl relying on theze to provide an opinion that they arent smart enuf or well informed enuf to formulate for themselvz?

Altho this dispute seemz to be authentic, coud Sam & Ezra be cooking up a fake Thunderdome match to boost their paid subscriptionz? Even if not, its likely to hav that effect.

I wuz going to post a comment at Sam'z site, but I didnt want to part with 7 buks to join. ( I'm cheap about sum thingz, plus perpetually lacking in spare $)

So I'll post my opinionz here:

Its painfully obvious that Murray iz rite. Going by exajeration iz the microscope uv lojik, IQ iz widely different between speciez, so why woud anybody expect there to be no differens between rasez uv humanz? Nobody woud ever expect to meet a real life Brian Griffin (dog from family guy) bekuz human level IQ iz beyond the ranje found in all types uv dogz and yet there iz no emotional rancorous dispute about the IQ variationz amongst different rasez uv dogz.

How long until we can modify the DNA uv animalz to giv them human level IQ? Wut if a few minor tweeks iz all it takes to make elefants and walez way the hell smarter than us, kuz they hav much bigger brainz?

And looking at it from another perspectiv, not many peepl get riled up about african'z greater averaj athletic abilityz. They mite be unhappy if they are wite or asian, but therez no PC suppression campane or riots agenst anybody voising the fact.

To me, all humanz are idiots, including me. We are barely smarter than chimps compared to the potential IQ from just eliminating our normally aksepted flawz. And, given a flawless human brain with exellent software (lojik), that person woud STILL be a useless dullard compared to alienz and the artificial mindz we are developing. In fact, I say the left side uv the Bell Curve quickly drops below wut can be found in many other animalz! ESPECIALLY in adults who hav usually secured themselvz into a comfortable Sement Hed faze uv life in wich they never haf to lern another thing and will fite to the deth to defend every little detail uv wut they 'know'.

IQ levelz are clearly stratified on a practical level - There are thingz that you simply can not explain to sumwun below (for example) 110 IQ that will be barely consievable between that and 130 and plainly obvious to thoze abuv 150. Sins haf uv all humanz are going to be on the other side uv 100, az a sosiety, its completely proper for the less stoopid to help the rest with the thingz they dont hav the ability to cojitate on. In fact, its essential for the continuation uv sivilization az the power available to each uv us increasez along the the complexity uv our teknolojy. In other wordz, you cant put moronz in charj uv nuclear power plants just to satisfy a notion uv equality - they wont be happy in the job and they will eventually blow sumthing up.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by Gord » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:36 pm

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:14 pm

You can smell the fear in that article!

Herez the story about the near riot at Middlebury
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:26 pm

If I go to a collej auditorium and accuze the audiens uv having a wide variation uv strength and co-ordination between their rite & left handz, will they chase me away with torchez & pichforks? :lol:
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:22 pm

".....♫....Hey Jo......"

I used to make the same argument you do here. I have come to stress the fact that its the consequences of facts that have more import than the facts themselves.

IE: Assuming IQ does vary among the races ((Most deniers will claim there is no such thing as human races)) we are left with what to DO with that information. I say: nothing. There is so much overlap in IQ between the races, and so much race mixing, that to try to make any further recognitions or god help us, social policy on the fact of IQ distribution that the fact of the matter should be ignored for all practical purposes. IE: Treat all people the same because the result is beneficial whereas treating individuals as a member of a pre-judged group is just aggressively stupid.

It goes like this: men are taller than women to a degree much stronger than racial IQ spread, but it would be aggressively stupid to bet my life or my fortune that the next man thru the door would be taller or shorter than the next woman. If I had a long series of bets to make, I would go with men being taller, but on the issue of IQ, long series of bets do not arise.

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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:29 pm

Thats sensible. Pretty much my opinion too and wut Charles and Sam say in the podcast.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:20 pm

Daily Intelijensr Andrew Sullivan, an actual research sientist on the subject uv intelijens, wadez into the debate. I wanted to read the Reich oped, unfortunately I'v uzed up my free vizits to the NYT for this month.

Nobody in the articlez I'v red and herd on this hav mentioned the jenetic modification factor. Theze peepl tend to ramble on quite a bit and therez about haf a dozen links to more opinionz, so I cant say they never hav.

It will happen eventually, and probably within a handful uv decadez unless conservativ idiots take over all the gummits on Earth. Remember Bush quashing stem sell reserch? :roll:

Wen it starts to bekum common and refined to a consumer level uv reliability, this entire debate bekumz moot. The big question then will be 'how smart can you be and still interact with other peepl'. Unlike in GATTACA you wont need to be born perfect, you will be able to get jene therapy (or wutevr they will call it) to fix any deficiensiez.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:20 am

Just since you mentioned it, I thought the physical ability thing was not generally accepted as judged it was mostly a function of economic opportunity? ie: white guys don't like getting punched in the head so they become accountants. blacks don't have many other options. Hmmmm....I guess Asians are into Kung Fu and not boxing while Jews....are the head accountants????

Ha, ha.......so easily we sound very racist. OTOH....seems like those skinny lanky Ethiopians sure do take the Marathon Runs while the well muscled blacks smoke the competition in sprints. So...theory vs observation? I'll strike a balance and say more non-blacks would choose to compete if they had fewer options? How everyone might add up will be much like IQ==>lots of overlap and the real distinction isn't worth much in application.

IIRC--the spread of IQ was only 2-3-4 points from one group to the next? Strikes me as within the margin of error? If I cared, I would look it up. No interest in race theory, but some in statistics.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:39 am

It is a statistically relevant difference.
It is most likely not actually relevant except in terms of genetic research.

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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:22 am

1 standard deviation (15 points) between wite and black. About 5 points between asian and wite.

The athletic superiority uv blacks iz undeniable. There are many more wites trying their best at sports in skool in the US simply due to the much greater population persentaj, yet the blacks still prevail.

An interesting thing iz that its not all sports. Notis the dearth uv black swimmerz.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:02 pm

15 point? When I learned it, it was 10: To the Google Machine:
The Stanford-Binet (SB) - the best and most popular intelligence test is a Cognitive ability assessment used to measure intelligence (IQ). The Stanford-Binet measures five factors of cognitive ability: Fluid Reasoning, Knowledge, Quantitative Reasoning, Visual-Spatial Processing, and Working Memory........Unlike scoring on previous versions of the Stanford–Binet test, SB5 IQ scoring is deviation scoring in which each standard deviation up or down from the norming sample median score is 15 points from the median score, IQ 100, just like the standard scoring on the Wechsler tests.
Likewise, my info re the different means only being 2-3-4: not including going from the bottom group (Aborigines) to the Top Group (Ashkenazim Jews).

I assume your quote of 15 points is accurate and can only think: Wow. That is significant. Ha, ha.....its a terrible thing when a lie is supported by the truth? I still say: take each individual for exactly that, and NOT a member of a group. Its: pragmatic (for most situations and every "social" position I can think of).
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by JO 753 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 pm

You dont need to assume, its rite there in the article you quoted.
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Q!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:09 am

JO 753 wrote:You dont need to assume, its rite there in the article you quoted.
thanks Jo.....I didn't read the link beyond pulling the quotes. As stated: to me the truth/numbers aren't that important but rather what you do with the truth in its wider application/context. Its all pragmatism.

but kinda a sidenote as I am a Darwin Advocate, even while knowing ((it used to be thought)) that IQ tends to revert to the group mean rather than be directly inheritable......I have always wondered if the reason non-blacks are more IQ is because it was the smart ones (ON AVERAGE) that left the grasslands of Ethiopia to forge a new future? That would account for a group difference...but only if IQ is inherited, so, I guess it is???? Now...we just have to deal with the Aborigines. How did they leave Africa and get dumber? Or is it their cultural values.....and how can you ever tell the difference?

Came real close to lots of bar fights making this argument in South Carolina. Good Ol boys couldn't understand how there could be a difference in IQ but it didn't make a difference. .........Ha. ha.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by Lausten » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:59 pm

JO 753 wrote:1 standard deviation (15 points) between wite and black. About 5 points between asian and wite.

The athletic superiority uv blacks iz undeniable. There are many more wites trying their best at sports in skool in the US simply due to the much greater population persentaj, yet the blacks still prevail.

An interesting thing iz that its not all sports. Notis the dearth uv black swimmerz.
And hockey players. Gee, could it be that basketball courts are everywhere, but it costs money to build a pool and ice time is at a premium, not to mention the equipment?
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Re: Q!

Post by Lausten » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:11 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I have always wondered if the reason non-blacks are more IQ is because it was the smart ones (ON AVERAGE) that left the grasslands of Ethiopia to forge a new future? That would account for a group difference...but only if IQ is inherited, so, I guess it is???? Now...we just have to deal with the Aborigines. How did they leave Africa and get dumber? Or is it their cultural values.....and how can you ever tell the difference?
That kind of wild speculation is the problem. Sam has pointed out that, no matter what we do, no matter how enlightened we become, these differences in the data related to racial definitions are going to keep showing up. We need to discuss how to handle them, not just some blanket concept of treating individuals as equal. There are many academics who he thinks have something to say about the data, but they are keeping quiet because they see the reactions from the angry crowds.

Ryan Bell, an ex-preacher turned atheist, started a thread on facebook, noting that white supremacists are claiming that Sam's work was an entry for them into their racist philosophy. Sam does occasionally say things that are hard to parse and could be racists, but they are so rare in comparison to his overall message, I find this hard to accept. I think it's the racists trying to find scholarly support for their POV. I argued for a day or so on that thread, and it was pretty much going nowhere, I didn't see any good points from them, just repeats of cherry picked quotes. I pointed to the lengthy responses by Sam and they said, that's what Sam does, he's always whining about being taken out of context. Ryan unfriended me. Like I said, we aren't prepared for this conversation.
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Re: Q!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:30 pm

Lausten wrote:We need to discuss how to handle them, not just some blanket concept of treating individuals as equal.
since before anything else, we are all individuals....what is wrong with this approach?
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Re: Q!

Post by Lausten » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lausten wrote:We need to discuss how to handle them, not just some blanket concept of treating individuals as equal.
since before anything else, we are all individuals....what is wrong with this approach?
Nothing in principle, it just doesn't cover enough. It's like Jefferson saying democracy only works if the people upholding it have Christian values. I have an idea of what that means and I think I agree with him, but others think it means going to a specific church every Sunday and performing specific rituals.

With treating everyone equal, I'm fine with helping wheel chairs navigate parking lots and city streets, but some people might think that means paving all of our parks as well. They might look at outcomes and say there is discrimination when in fact there is equal opportunity. Women's boxing is currently dealing with trans individuals who want to compete as women despite having much stronger bodies. If you have two individuals who graduated from the same high school with similar grades, there can still be a lot of differences based on the environment they grew up in. I consider it fair to provide additional help to the one from the less privileged environment.
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:28 am

L: you are conflating a number of different issues. No reason not to treat everyone the same on the issue of skin color, then treat people differently based on their IQ, social background, or special needs. Four different things?
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Re: Sam Harris vs Ezra Klein, + the podcast venue

Post by Lausten » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:L: you are conflating a number of different issues. No reason not to treat everyone the same on the issue of skin color, then treat people differently based on their IQ, social background, or special needs. Four different things?
I don't understand your question. Skin color is a difference, but it isn't related to IQ or ability. IQ is a difference, and it is a predictor of how well someone does in school, but it's not the only factor in how well someone can perform in any particular thing. Social background is a difference and is highly correlated with success in the workplace. By saying "special needs" aren't you saying some people should be treated differently?
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