Al Sullivan NDE

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Shen1986
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Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:41 pm

Al Sullivan was having heart surgery when he had a typical out of body near death experience. He observed people operating on him and some other family type stuff. However he notes one odd behaviour of the surgeon, Dr. Takata. During long medical procedures Dr. Takata often rests his hands close to his armpits and uses his elbows to point things out to people he is directing, looking somewhat like someone who is making the flapping chicken arms emote.

Al Sullivan, after the surgery described his experience and that he saw Dr. Takata doing this behaviour, however during surgery Sullivan had his eyes taped shut, was behind a visual obstruction and under anesthesia.

Simply still being conscious doesn't solve how he knew this bit of information as there were multiple visual impairments.

No one admits to explaining this behaviour to Mr. Sullivan before or after the surgery... and why would they?

So how did he know Dr. Takata did this?

The only things I can come up with was that he was semi-conscious and able to perceive the shadow of the doctor through the sheet with his eyes not being taped shut effectively or someone on staff making an off-hand remark of some kind about Dr. Takata doing "his chicken again" or something.

Help me out here people, other explanations other than simply being given information and making false statements?


Taken from: http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=31192.0

Its even on Near-death.com:

r. Bruce Greyson documented perhaps one of the most compelling examples of a person who had a NDE and observed events while outside of his body which were later verified by others. The only way that these events could have been observed by the experiencer was if in fact he was outside of his body. Al Sullivan was a 55 year old truck driver who was undergoing triple by-pass surgery when he had a powerful NDE that included an encounter with his deceased mother and brother-in-law, who told Al to go back to his to tell one of his neighbors that their son with lymphoma will be OK. Furthermore, during the NDE, Al accurately noticed that the surgeon operating on him was flapping his arms in an unusual fashion, with his hands in his armpits. When he came back to his body after the surgery was over, the surgeon was startled that Al could describe his own arm flapping, which was his idiosyncratic method of keeping his hands sterile.


Taken from: http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

This NDE was debunked by even the parapsychology researchers but it was a giant mystery back then like you can see. Here is the paper that debunks this:

14) The Case of Al Sullivan. B.G. learned about this case when Al Sullivan
first attended a meeting of a Connecticut chapter of the International Association
for Near-Death Studies, in 1990, a couple of years after the surgery during
which Mr. Sullivan’ s experience occurred. Mr. Sullivan had been a 56-yearold
van driver at the time of his experience, which occurred on January 18,
1988, during an emergency coronary bypass operation at Hartford Hospital in
Connecticut.


Here is the most important part:

began my journey in an upward direction and found myself in a very thick, black, billowy
smoke like atmosphere. The smoke seemed to surround me no matter what way I
turned, yet it was not going to deter me as far as I was concerned....
As I continued on my journey, I rose to an amphitheater like place. It had a wall directly
in front of me to prevent me from going into it. Behind this wall, a very bright
light shone. As I tried to get closer to this wall, I noticed three humanlike figures at my
immediate left.... I was able to grasp the wall and look over it into the area the wall was
blocking. To my amazement, at the lower left-hand side was, of all things, me. I was
laying [sic] on a table covered with light blue sheets and I was cut open so as to expose
my chest cavity. It was in this cavity that I was able to see my heart on what appeared to
be a small glass table. I was able to see my surgeon, who just moments ago had explained
to me what he was going to do during my operation. He appeared to be somewhat
perplexed. I thought he was flapping his arms as if trying to fly.... It was at this
point I noticed one of the three figures I saw on my arrival to the wall was that of my
brother-in-law who had died almost two years before....


Page 22

Taken from:http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearch/pdf_docs/12.3_cook_greyson_stevenson.pdf

The observation was about that a doctor flapped his hands. This was also on the Discovery Channel in a documentary called: What happens when we die. So here we go:

According to Mr. Sullivan, as soon as he regained consciousness and the
tube was taken out of his throat so that he could speak, he told his cardiologist,
Dr. Anthony LaSala, what he had observed during the operation. Dr. LaSala’ s
first reaction was to attribute Mr. Sullivan’ s experience to the drugs he had
been given. Mr. Sullivan then described seeing the cardiac surgeon, Dr. Hiroyoshi
Takata, flapping his elbows as if he were trying to fly. According to Mr.
Sullivan, at this point Dr. LaSala’s eyes widened, and he asked who had told
Mr. Sullivan about that. When Mr. Sullivan said that he had seen it himself,
from above his body in the operating room, Dr. LaSala explained that this was
a peculiar habit of Dr. Takata’ s. If he had not yet ª scrubbed inº and did not
want his ungloved hands to touch the sterile operating field, he would flatten
his palms against his chest and give instructions to his assistants by pointing
with his elbows.
Mr. Sullivan said that Dr. LaSala reported this experience to Dr. Takata, but
that Dr. Takata’ s only response had been, rather defensively, to insist that Mr.
Sullivan had never ª diedº during the surgery. Mr. Sullivan himself did not talk
with Dr. Takata about the experience until a follow-up visit, probably a couple
of years later. At that time, Dr. Takata said only: ªWell, you’ re here, you’ re
alive, so I must do something right!º
In the fall of 1997, one of us (B.G.) spoke with both Dr. LaSala and Dr.
Takata. Dr. Takata could not confirm specifically that he had ª flappedº his elbows
during Mr. Sullivan’s surgery in particular, but he did confirm that this is
a regular habit of his, done not because he has not yet scrubbed in (as reported
by Mr. Sullivan), but because, after he has scrubbed in, he does not wish his
hands to touch anything until he is actually ready to do the surgery. Dr. LaSala
confirmed to B.G. that Mr. Sullivan had told him about the experience shortly
after he regained consciousness following the surgery. He also confirmed that
Dr. Takata has this habit of ª flappingº his elbows, and he added that he has
never seen any other surgeon do this.


Page 24

Taken from:http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearch/pdf_docs/12.3_cook_greyson_stevenson.pdf

The doctors himself were skeptical of this even when the doctor is doing such a thing and he doesn’t know if he flipped his hands during that time. Also the patient was never dead. However also the authors of the paper are skeptical about this one because there is a explanation for this:

Comment: Mr. Sullivan’s medical records indicate that in the operating
room he was first given a local anesthetic so that an intraaortic balloon could
be inserted, and he was then given a general anesthetic so that the surgery itself
could begin. It occurred to us that Mr. Sullivan might have seen Dr. Takata
ª flappingº his elbows when the balloon was being inserted but before he was
given general anesthesia and lost consciousness, and that he had later confused
the order of events. B.G. therefore asked Mr. Sullivan for further details about
what he had seen at the time he saw Dr. Takata flapping his arms. Mr. Sullivan
said that he saw Dr. Takata standing alone over his opened chest, which was
being held open by metal clamps, and he also saw two other surgeons working
over his leg. He recalls being puzzled at the time about why they were working
on his leg when the problem was with his heart, but he now knows that at this
point in the surgery the surgeons were stripping the vein out of his leg to create
the bypass graft for his heart. These details seem clearly to confirm that Mr.
Sullivan’ s observation of Dr. Takata flapping his arms occurred when he was
under general anesthesia and, at least to observers, unconscious.


Pages 24-25

Taken from:http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearch/pdf_docs/12.3_cook_greyson_stevenson.pdf

You can read it also here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21638

So we can see that even the parapsychologist were able to debunk this one.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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Re: Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Whitedude » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:02 pm

Michael Prescott has cited this thread on his blog. Here is what he has written:

Here's an excerpt from a paper about the Sullivan case. I found it on a skeptics' forum (the skeptics appear to think the paper "debunks" the episode, but they're misreading it). In any event, here's the relevant quote:

"Mr. Sullivan said that Dr. LaSala reported this experience to Dr. Takata, but
that Dr. Takata’ s only response had been, rather defensively, to insist that Mr.
Sullivan had never 'died' during the surgery. Mr. Sullivan himself did not talk
with Dr. Takata about the experience until a follow-up visit, probably a couple
of years later. At that time, Dr. Takata said only: 'Well, you’ re here, you’ re
alive, so I must do something right!'"

So it appears Sullivan's heart did not go into arrest on the operating table.

Skeptics' discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22035

The actual paper is here:

http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearc ... venson.pdf

The Sullivan case is discussed on pp. 399ff.


http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... d-men.html

Prescott has not explained why he thinks you have misread the paper. Interested in knowing more on this.
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Shen1986
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Re: Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Shen1986 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:16 pm

Whitedude wrote:Michael Prescott has cited this thread on his blog. Here is what he has written:

Here's an excerpt from a paper about the Sullivan case. I found it on a skeptics' forum (the skeptics appear to think the paper "debunks" the episode, but they're misreading it). In any event, here's the relevant quote:

"Mr. Sullivan said that Dr. LaSala reported this experience to Dr. Takata, but
that Dr. Takata’ s only response had been, rather defensively, to insist that Mr.
Sullivan had never 'died' during the surgery. Mr. Sullivan himself did not talk
with Dr. Takata about the experience until a follow-up visit, probably a couple
of years later. At that time, Dr. Takata said only: 'Well, you’ re here, you’ re
alive, so I must do something right!'"

So it appears Sullivan's heart did not go into arrest on the operating table.

Skeptics' discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22035

The actual paper is here:

http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearc ... venson.pdf

The Sullivan case is discussed on pp. 399ff.


http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... d-men.html

Prescott has not explained why he thinks you have misread the paper. Interested in knowing more on this.


Is he on drugs?? The paper he posted is the same I did and it debunks the case:

Comment: Mr. Sullivan’s medical records indicate that in the operating
room he was first given a local anesthetic so that an intraaortic balloon could
be inserted, and he was then given a general anesthetic so that the surgery itself
could begin. It occurred to us that Mr. Sullivan might have seen Dr. Takata
ª flappingº his elbows when the balloon was being inserted but before he was
given general anesthesia and lost consciousness, and that he had later confused
the order of events. B.G. therefore asked Mr. Sullivan for further details about
what he had seen at the time he saw Dr. Takata flapping his arms. Mr. Sullivan
said that he saw Dr. Takata standing alone over his opened chest, which was
being held open by metal clamps, and he also saw two other surgeons working
over his leg. He recalls being puzzled at the time about why they were working
on his leg when the problem was with his heart, but he now knows that at this
point in the surgery the surgeons were stripping the vein out of his leg to create
the bypass graft for his heart. These details seem clearly to confirm that Mr.
Sullivan’ s observation of Dr. Takata flapping his arms occurred when he was
under general anesthesia and, at least to observers, unconscious.


Taken from: http://sedna.no.sapo.pt/death_scresearc ... venson.pdf
Pages: 400-401

Is he really on drugs or he did not read it.
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Re: Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Whitedude » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:23 pm

Is he really on drugs or he did not read it.


Now I have looked at this, it appears you are correct. I don't think he read all of it. He has a history of ignoring evidence against his beliefs and misrepresenting sources.
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Re: Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Whitedude » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:25 pm

Is he on drugs??


His latest blog posts have been discussing psychedelic drugs and LSD, so he probably is. :lol:

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... sions.html
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Shen1986
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Re: Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Shen1986 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:23 am

Here is a response of Bruce Greyson about this case:

Speaking of better late then never....

A few months ago when we were discussing NDE experiences I mentioned the Al Sullivan Case to Keith Augustine.

Keith's rebuttal of this was to link to his article on infidels.org.This struck me as suspicious but I didn't follow up on it till recently by emailing Dr Greyson. Here are the emails. You be the judge.

____________________________________________

My first email

Dear Dr Greyson

I have a question about this NDE case

1. The case of Al Sullivan: Al was a 55 year old truck driver who was undergoing triple by-pass surgery when he had a powerful NDE that included an encounter with his deceased mother and brother-in-law, who told Al to go back to his to tell one of his neighbors that their son with lymphoma will be OK. Furthermore, during the NDE, Al accurately noticed that the surgeon operating on him was flapping his arms in an unusual fashion, with his hands in his armpits. When he came back to his body after the surgery was over, the surgeon was startled that Al could describe his own arm flapping, which was his idiosyncratic method of keeping his hands sterile.

However when I read about this case this is what Keith Augustine reported.

] In his first commentary Bruce Greyson denied that near-death researchers ever appeal to such "'high probability' guesses" when making a case for veridical paranormal perception during NDEs—which is a bit too strong given that such instances can be cited. (In fact, in my response I cited three examples of 'high probability guesses' proffered by near-death researchers). More importantly, though, Greyson maintained that there have been cases of NDErs accurately reporting quite unpredictable details, noting for instance "one man's accurate description of his cardiac surgeon during his open-heart surgery 'flapping his arms as if trying to fly'," a detail which Greyson described as "corroborated by independent interviews with the doctors and nurses involved" (Greyson, "Paranormal" 240). (The surgeon in question had developed a habit of keeping his arms close to his chest and pointing with his elbows to keep his hands sterile.)

But psychologist David Lester had already noted that the 'corroboration' for this case was sorely lacking, writing in an earlier book:

The case [Emily Williams] Cook [and coauthors Bruce Greyson and Ian Stevenson] felt was most supportive [of veridical paranormal perception during NDEs] was that of a 56-year-old man who was operated on for quadruple bypass surgery. During the surgery, he had a near-death experience, including the sensation of floating out of his body and observing the operation. In particular, he described the surgeons working on his leg (they stripped some veins to create a bypass graft) and one of the team flapping his arms as if trying to fly, a gesture which that surgeon habitually made during surgery. The patient wrote the experience down in 1990, and Cook's team interviewed the surgeons in 1997. The surgeon who flapped his arms did not recall whether he did so or not, and the other surgeon did not recall him doing so, although he did confirm that the patient reported the experience immediately after the surgery.

In this case, the best case that Cook could produce, the experience was not recorded for two years and the surgeons were not interviewed until nine years had passed. Given that many patients report near-death experiences and that many of the researchers (such as Ian Stevenson and his team) are located in a university with a medical school, it is amazing that no case has yet appeared in which a near-death experience (let alone one with the features that Cook focused on) has been recorded (with audio or video recorders) immediately after the patient recovered and the details checked there and then. This needs to be done, and it is surprising that it has not yet been done [emphasis mine] (Lester 96).

This looks very suspicious to me. My guess is that Psychologist David Lester is trying to pull a fast one. Many people cannot recall exact what they did at a given moment and if I was asked if somebody engaged in a certain activity at a specific time I would be hard pressed too.

However we can still ask this question. Was the Dr who performed the surgery on Al Sullivan known for regularly flapping his arms , even if he cannot recall if he did it at one specific time.

Thanks

Kris

____________________________________________

Dr Greyson's 1st response

Dear Kris,

Thanks for your -email. I was actually the member of Cook's team who interviewed Al Sullivan, his cardiologist, and the cardiac surgeon. The surgeon was not "known" for regularly flapping his arms, as far as I could ascertain. That is, surgical nurses and residents who had not worked with him were not aware of this idiosyncratic habit. However, he did acknowledge to me that he typically did that in all his surgeries when Al had his operation, although he couldn't swear that he had done so for Al's.

As for the suggestion that no NDE had been captured on audio or videotape immediately after recovery, I am not aware of any hospital that has ever permitted research of that kind. Certainly my hospital is much too concerned about patient confidentiality to permit recording without extensive prior permissions, which of course would be impossible to obtain immediately after a cardiac carrest. This strikes me as another illustration that no evidence, no matter how good, will ever satisfy the debunkers.

____________________________________________

My next email

Dear Dr Greyson

Thanks for your rapid response. I am not sure per say sure how one would film an NDE anyways, seems a bit screwy to me. If it is happening inside the head obviously a camera would not pick it up and if I do recall the traditional view of the soul is that it is invisible...

Make sure I am reading your response correctly. While the doctor cannot swear that he did the arm flapping during Mr Sullivan's surgery he did state he was in the habit of doing that and he knows he did it in the time period when Mr Sullivan had his surgery.

Thanks

Kris

____________________________________________

Greyson's response

Kris,

Yes, you are reading my response correctly.

Best wishes,

____________________________________________

I debated whether I should post this or not. However I have before questioned Keith's motives and I think this proves my case.

There is no way it didn't occur to Keith to simply verify the possibility I verified with Dr Greyson.

Either he contacted Greyson and got an answer he didn't like or he didn't contact him in the first place, knowing this was a very distinct possibly. I will let you all be the judge.


Taken from: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... never.html

As we can see there even Bruce Greyson has no real evidence besides a anecdote to back it up:

Thanks for your -email. I was actually the member of Cook's team who interviewed Al Sullivan, his cardiologist, and the cardiac surgeon. The surgeon was not "known" for regularly flapping his arms, as far as I could ascertain. That is, surgical nurses and residents who had not worked with him were not aware of this idiosyncratic habit. However, he did acknowledge to me that he typically did that in all his surgeries when Al had his operation, although he couldn't swear that he had done so for Al's.

As for the suggestion that no NDE had been captured on audio or videotape immediately after recovery, I am not aware of any hospital that has ever permitted research of that kind. Certainly my hospital is much too concerned about patient confidentiality to permit recording without extensive prior permissions, which of course would be impossible to obtain immediately after a cardiac carrest. This strikes me as another illustration that no evidence, no matter how good, will ever satisfy the debunkers.


Taken from: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... never.html

Another problem is that Bruce Greyson changed his opinion. He first debunked this case and then claims it is not debunked. Even Bruce Greyson cannot stand by his own words. Wow. Just speechless..

Another thing it is from a user and not Bruce Greyson himself. So there is a possibility it was made up. If not then I am speechless again because it shows that these people does not take science seriously and cannot even stand by their words. They claim what fits them because first Stevenson and Greyson debunked it and now Greyson claims it is not debunked. Wow really wow.
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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Shen1986
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Re: Al Sullivan NDE

Postby Shen1986 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:18 am

Also here is a look on the case:

http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=31192.0
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.


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