Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

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Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #1  Postby Shen1986 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:51 am

Hi

I had a discussion with a friend who is a believer in Near-Death Experiences and he told me that they are proof of the soul/spirit etc. I was skeptical about his many cases he threw at me and could rationally explain several of them but one that puzzles me is from Anita Moorjani because I could not find any rational explanation for this and even no skeptical answer to her claims on the Internet.  I would be very happy if someone could find some rational explanation for her NDE. Here is the story taken from wikipedia NDE page:

Anita Moorjani, an ethnic Indian woman from Hong Kong, experienced a truly remarkable NDE which has been documented on the Near Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF) website as one of the most exceptional accounts on their archives. She had end-stage cancer and on February 2, 2006, doctors told her family that she only had a few hours to live. Following her NDE, Anita experienced a remarkable total recovery of her health.

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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #2  Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:35 am

Hi

I tried to find any confirmation of medical records on this but so far only encountered this site on which is stated:
... the clinical picture was consistent with progressive Hodgkin's Lymphoma, a presumptive diagnosis was made of Stage IV Hodgkin's Lymphoma. However, this diagnosis was not confirmed, as biopsies were not taken at that time. There was also a concern, based on clinical exam, that she had multi-organ failure, but diagnostic tests did not confirm this.


I did not listen to the podcast mentioned there, so I don't know what it says.

Hope you will find what you're looking for. :)
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #3  Postby Sucher_78 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:42 am

What affirmation are you looking for with this woman's story? Her recovery appears to be quite remarkable, but are you seeking validation of the experiences she had while in this nearly terminal state?
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #4  Postby Shen1986 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:03 am

What affirmation are you looking for with this woman's story? Her recovery appears to be quite remarkable, but are you seeking validation of the experiences she had while in this nearly terminal state?


I am looking for a skeptical and rational explanation because my friend a believer in NDE believes that this story proves that Anita was healed by the power of her own NDE. My friend who told me about this story and pointed me to it said that when her soul was returning back from the afterlife cured her - like you know the stories that fairy tails are made off like Its not your time etc and they you return and the body heals something like a miracle...
I know it sounds ridiculous if you think about it but I could not find any skeptical explanation how Anita could have been cured but now thanks to scrmbldggs and fls(I really appreciate your work) it seems that this story is build on very weak ground and Anitas diagnosis could have been something else and the doctors made some errors and there is no remarkable miracle only a bad diagnosis at work and little to no proof.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #5  Postby Unillenium » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:00 pm

Shen1986 wrote:
What affirmation are you looking for with this woman's story? Her recovery appears to be quite remarkable, but are you seeking validation of the experiences she had while in this nearly terminal state?


I am looking for a skeptical and rational explanation because my friend a believer in NDE believes that this story proves


Don't ever bother trying to have a rational conversation with somebody who haphazardly uses the word prove. While "proof" and "evidence" can be forgiven as semi inter-changeable when used as nouns, when turned into the verb "prove" you should run the other way and not look back. Once the verb "prove" has been fired off, any chance of a rational and scientific conversation is destroyed.
that Anita was healed by the power of her own NDE.

That sound is the hammer hitting the nail on the head. An NDE is a purely subjective experience. While you could theoretically monitor and gather data on the persons vital signs while they are supposedly having an NDE the fact is that there is no way of actually verifying what the person 'saw'. For all we know their memory was damaged by the fact that they almost died and they actually dreamed about atomic tomatoes coming to life and killing people.
My friend who told me about this story and pointed me to it said that when her soul was returning back from the afterlife cured her - like you know the stories that fairy tails are made off like Its not your time etc and they you return and the body heals something like a miracle...
I know it sounds ridiculous if you think about it but I could not find any skeptical explanation how Anita could have been cured but now thanks to scrmbldggs and fls(I really appreciate your work) it seems that this story is build on very weak ground and Anitas diagnosis could have been something else and the doctors made some errors and there is no remarkable miracle only a bad diagnosis at work and little to no proof.


See: Spontaneous remission. Cancer has been documented to go away on its own in some cases.

Is it a miracle if a non-life-threatening cancer goes into remission in an early stage? Or only if a life threatening cancer goes into remission in an advanced stage?

I'd call it miraculous if the spontaneous remission rate were 99,999/100,000 and not 1/100,000 as it is now. If god is in charge of remissions then he's doing a pretty lousy job.

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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #6  Postby Al senior » Mon May 20, 2013 9:15 pm

Hi, I am new in this forum.  I found it because I googled for criticism of the book I just read.
Being very critical/skeptical myself I am glad to have found this forum and hope to find many interesting discussions.  Here is the extent of my take on Anita's book:

Overall, a very well written book, and an enjoyable read.
Even to a certain degree inspirational.

As to the obvious question of the skeptical reader, my instincts tell me that she is genuine in recalling what her mind experienced during her NDE episode.  That leaves two other questions:
1. Was her experience delusional, or drug induced?
2. Is she interpreting her experience correctly?
We have of course no way of answering those questions.

Personally, I cannot claim full understanding of everything she is trying to communicate, and found the later chapters somewhat repetitive in the main theme.  
Which brings me to the part I least understand:
One would assume that she is addressing EVERY live human with her recommendation, basically, to believe in the magnificence of oneself.
That would include those individuals who never had any doubt in their magnificence, or at least are narcissistically inclined anyway.
Doesn't  that seem somewhat redundant, as in 'preaching to the choir'?

I have also watched Anita's speech in Sedona earlier this year, where she recounts her NDE experience pretty much in the words she uses in her book.  Like with her book, she comes across as a genuine person, captivating to her audience, even with a fine sense of humor.  
It comes easy to feel happy for her successful survival of a terrible illness, and even more so for her new found mental state, as well as her success in her new career as a messenger.
I wish her all the best for the remainder of her life, and hope she is correct with her expectations of what comes after she leaves her physical remains.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #7  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 1:44 am

Hi, Al :wave:

Did you travel there to see her? Or were/are you already close to that beautiful region? Those rocks seem awesome!
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #8  Postby Al senior » Tue May 21, 2013 3:11 am

Hi there, and thank you for the welcome.
I have been to Sedona many times, but live too far away from it now to attend a speech.
You are so right, it is an awe-inspiring place.  I watched this video online: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvmABrII35c
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #9  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 3:33 am

Al senior wrote:Hi there, and thank you for the welcome.
I have been to Sedona many times, but live too far away from it now to attend a speech.
You are so right, it is an awe-inspiring place.  I watched this video online: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvmABrII35c

Thanks, I guess... I had, sort of, expected to see a video of the red rocks... not a video of the lady's speech.   :(
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #10  Postby Al senior » Tue May 21, 2013 3:42 am

Sorry for the confusion arising out of the placement of my link.  It probably should have been placed before I talked about Sedona's beauty.  However, it was not intended as a plug for her speech, only as a help to find it if wanted.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #11  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 3:50 am

OK, thanks.

As to this:
Al senior wrote: Which brings me to the part I least understand:
One would assume that she is addressing EVERY live human with her recommendation, basically, to believe in the magnificence of oneself.
That would include those individuals who never had any doubt in their magnificence, or at least are narcissistically inclined anyway.
Doesn't  that seem somewhat redundant, as in 'preaching to the choir'?

I would seem no matter how narcissistic a person is, there are always doubts.

Unless one is a psychopath. And I doubt she was talking about those, but not necessarily excluding them, if she truly believes everyone is already wonderful and is going to end up in paradise.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #12  Postby Al senior » Tue May 21, 2013 4:01 am

scrmbldggs wrote:I would seem no matter how narcissistic a person is, there are always doubts.
Are there?
Unless one is a psychopath. And I doubt she was talking about those, but not necessarily excluding them, if she truly believes everyone is already wonderful and is going to end up in paradise.
She explicitly includes ALL humans, effectively removing most religions' incentive for leading a "good" life for the promise of a better after-life.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #13  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 4:18 am

Al senior wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I would seem no matter how narcissistic a person is, there are always doubts.
Are there?

It would seem so. Otherwise even a pathological narcissist would give up trying to impress and gain control of those around him/herself, no? Why keep it up if one is so perfect that nothing can touch you? If others aren't worthy to be even considered?

No, it seems a narcissist needs an audience to prove how special they are. And then loses interest once they feel they achieved that and focuses attention on where that hasn't happened yet. They seem insatiable in their need for admiration.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #14  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 4:23 am

Al senior wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Unless one is a psychopath. And I doubt she was talking about those, but not necessarily excluding them, if she truly believes everyone is already wonderful and is going to end up in paradise.
She explicitly includes ALL humans, effectively removing most religions' incentive for leading a "good" life for the promise of a better after-life.

Yes, that seems to happen more often recently. There is a trend towards that nowadays. And, perhaps, for that reason has become established in the "spiritual" mind.

People seem to have become fed up with the guilt trips... and there are plenty now that will feed those that are willing to listen...
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #15  Postby Al senior » Tue May 21, 2013 4:51 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Al senior wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Unless one is a psychopath. And I doubt she was talking about those, but not necessarily excluding them, if she truly believes everyone is already wonderful and is going to end up in paradise.
She explicitly includes ALL humans, effectively removing most religions' incentive for leading a "good" life for the promise of a better after-life.

Yes, that seems to happen more often recently. There is a trend towards that nowadays. And, perhaps, for that reason has become established in the "spiritual" mind.

People seem to have become fed up with the guilt trips... and there are plenty now that will feed those that are willing to listen...

Yes, which is not a very comforting thought for those of us who are 'good' just to feel good about ourselves.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #16  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 5:19 am

Seems the "feel good" effect is an evolutionary mechanism.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #17  Postby Shen1986 » Tue May 21, 2013 5:37 am

Hi

here is another reply from another skeptic and atheist:


Hi Lukas. You’ll be interested to know that Anita Moorjani’s case is one of those referenced by Michael Prescott as strong evidence for the supernatural.

Here are the important points from where I’m standing:
- During the NDE Moorjani describes, she did not experience anything which could be properly confirmed afterwards. She heard doctors talking, for instance, but of course the doctors would have been talking, and she doesn’t say she quoted them on anything specific.
- It’s a non-sequitur to reason that because Moorjani recovered from her condition, the NDE was real. Even if the supernatural was at work, it’s possible that either she had a freak natural recovery while having a real NDE, or hallucinated her ecstatic NDE while she was miraculously healed. The only connection is that Moorjani claims that while “on the other side” she learned what she needed in order to recover; the only way to verify this is to find out whether people who she’s taught since have managed similar feats.
- The one piece of concrete medical information the skeptics on that forum have managed to find is that Moorjani never got a confirmed diagnosis of Hodgkin’s lymphoma prior to her crisis point. After her experience, even in her own account she says they couldn’t find a lymph node big enough to indicate cancer, let alone check the status of a cancer they presumed she had. Therefore, even if it’s truly impossible to recover from end-stage Hodgkin’s that quickly AND if this part of the story is completely true, it still wasn’t necessarily a miracle because maybe she didn’t have Hodgkin’s.

It’s an interesting story, to be sure, but alternatives to either a true NDE or a truly miraculous recovery have not been ruled out, so the fact that the experience and the recovery are both unexplained does not imply anything further. To establish the work of the supernatural we would need a verifiable supernatural explanation, not simply the (possibly temporary) absence of a natural one.


Taken from: http://asktheatheist.com/?p=1355#comments
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #18  Postby scrmbldggs » Tue May 21, 2013 5:50 am

Thanks, Shen. And welcome back! I trust your trip was as hoped for?  :-D
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #19  Postby Gord » Tue May 21, 2013 11:09 pm

Al senior wrote:Hi, I am new in this forum.

Welcome to the heckhole. :wave:  (That's my current secret nickname for the Skeptics Society Forum.)
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #20  Postby kennyc » Tue May 21, 2013 11:12 pm

Gord wrote:
Al senior wrote:Hi, I am new in this forum.

Welcome to the heckhole. :wave:  (That's my current secret nickname for the Skeptics Society Forum.)


and that's different from the hecklehole, right?

and yes, welcome Al!
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #21  Postby Al senior » Tue May 21, 2013 11:45 pm

Thank you all for the encouraging welcome!
I have been part of many online fora, and most of them are full of crude, insulting, and/or annoyingly dumb people, who are not capable of a civilized discussion.  I am glad to find some normal people in a paranormal forum!   :)
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #22  Postby kennyc » Tue May 21, 2013 11:54 pm

Al senior wrote:Thank you all for the encouraging welcome!
I have been part of many online fora, and most of them are full of crude, insulting, and/or annoyingly dumb people, who are not capable of a civilized discussion.  I am glad to find some normal people in a paranormal forum!   :)



Uhhhh...... :shock:  I suspect there are a couple you've yet to meet.  :shock:
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #23  Postby kennyc » Tue May 21, 2013 11:55 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, Shen. And welcome back! I trust your trip was as hoped for?  :-D



Hey Look! Shen IS back!  :mrgreen:
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #24  Postby Gord » Wed May 22, 2013 12:39 am

Al senior wrote:I have been part of many online fora, and most of them are full of crude, insulting, and/or annoyingly dumb people, who are not capable of a civilized discussion.

Honestly, we're pretty full of crude, insulting and annoyingly dumb people here.

...in a paranormal forum!   :)

And we're a skeptic forum, so we don't believe in the paranormal (unless we get convinced, of course -- but I don't think that's ever happened here yet).
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #25  Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 22, 2013 12:59 am

Al senior wrote:Thank you all for the encouraging welcome!
I have been part of many online fora, and most of them are full of crude, insulting, and/or annoyingly dumb people, who are not capable of a civilized discussion.  I am glad to find some normal people in a paranormal forum!   :)

I arrived here a forum virgin and they got to spoil me. I hear I'm still a piece of work, but they are kind enough to say that in a humorous way...  :-D
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #26  Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 22, 2013 1:03 am

Gord wrote:And we're a skeptic forum, so we don't believe in the paranormal (unless we get convinced, of course -- but I don't think that's ever happened here yet).

^this
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #27  Postby Al senior » Wed May 22, 2013 1:09 am

Gord wrote:
Al senior wrote:I have been part of many online fora, and most of them are full of crude, insulting, and/or annoyingly dumb people, who are not capable of a civilized discussion.

Honestly, we're pretty full of crude, insulting and annoyingly dumb people here.

I shall try not to be a skeptic for a change and just take your word for it, rather than asking for evidence!   :lol:
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #28  Postby Shen1986 » Wed May 22, 2013 7:05 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, Shen. And welcome back! I trust your trip was as hoped for?  :-D


Phew.. It was a major trip... Really... I feel like a disoriented robot and my brain needs a re-boot and that completely.. I felt I am a part of a soap opera and I needed to play psychiatrist for two people and one I even helped to overcome one fear but the blindness of some people is really fascinating. They just don't want to face the truth. I took me several days of really hard work to convince that blindness of reality doesn't lead no where and that in the end the truth is the only  way..

The trip was just another major confirmation that dualism, reincarnation or the soul is just fantasies because my new patient had now a form of dementia and in the end he was so confused that he became aggressive and even could not recognize his loved ones and was also very deceptive and manipulative which it made him even a more harder case.  Really working with people who have such problems opens you to new ways how to perceive the world and now I really understand why religion and the paranormal is still in our world because people don't really want to face the hard reality of truth..
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #29  Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 22, 2013 7:15 am

Shen1986 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, Shen. And welcome back! I trust your trip was as hoped for?  :-D


Phew.. It was a major trip... Really... I feel like a disoriented robot and my brain needs a re-boot and that completely.. I felt I am a part of a soap opera and I needed to play psychiatrist for two people and one I even helped to overcome one fear but the blindness of some people is really fascinating. They just don't want to face the truth. I took me several days of really hard work to convince that blindness of reality doesn't lead no where and that in the end the truth is the only  way..

The trip was just another major confirmation that dualism, reincarnation or the soul is just fantasies because my new patient had now a form of dementia and in the end he was so confused that he became aggressive and even could not recognize his loved ones and was also very deceptive and manipulative which it made him even a more harder case.  Really working with people who have such problems opens you to new ways how to perceive the world and now I really understand why religion and the paranormal is still in our world because people don't really want to face the hard reality of truth..

I understand the need of people (I'm one of them!) for some sort of comfort and safety in a world that often seems uncertain and even dangerous. But, as you do, I also feel it is much saner, and also more peaceful, to grow up and accept things for what they are.

Good to have you back! And I hope your re-boot is coming along nicely.  :-D
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #30  Postby Shen1986 » Wed May 22, 2013 7:45 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Shen1986 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, Shen. And welcome back! I trust your trip was as hoped for?  :-D


Phew.. It was a major trip... Really... I feel like a disoriented robot and my brain needs a re-boot and that completely.. I felt I am a part of a soap opera and I needed to play psychiatrist for two people and one I even helped to overcome one fear but the blindness of some people is really fascinating. They just don't want to face the truth. I took me several days of really hard work to convince that blindness of reality doesn't lead no where and that in the end the truth is the only  way..

The trip was just another major confirmation that dualism, reincarnation or the soul is just fantasies because my new patient had now a form of dementia and in the end he was so confused that he became aggressive and even could not recognize his loved ones and was also very deceptive and manipulative which it made him even a more harder case.  Really working with people who have such problems opens you to new ways how to perceive the world and now I really understand why religion and the paranormal is still in our world because people don't really want to face the hard reality of truth..

I understand the need of people (I'm one of them!) for some sort of comfort and safety in a world that often seems uncertain and even dangerous. But I feel it is much saner, and much more peaceful, to grow up and accept things for what they are.

Good to have you back! And I hope your re-boot is coming along nicely.  :-D


Thanks.. I understand that need I am scarred too many times because sometimes the world is like a dangerous jungle. However some people are even damaging themselves when they don't accept reality like it is. Like this example I witnessed and lived through..  The truth will always free you..
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #31  Postby kennyc » Wed May 22, 2013 11:16 am

Shen1986 wrote:....  The truth will always free you..


Yep!
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #32  Postby Al senior » Wed May 22, 2013 3:38 pm

kennyc wrote:
Shen1986 wrote:....  The truth will always free you..


Yep!
Not only that, it also is much easier to live with!
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #33  Postby octopus1 » Sat May 25, 2013 10:13 pm

In terms of how one should approach a story like this:

You shouldn't appropriate the end-result of any event as a validation of your hypothesis.

"I had an apple.  A few days after I shouted at it, it started turning brown."  

What you did, or what happened, is not the reason for the change you subsequently observed.

The fact that the (Entirley unverified) case the OP mentioned is a one-off, tends to support a conclusion of "coincidence" rather than "miracle".
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #34  Postby Al senior » Sat May 25, 2013 10:53 pm

octopus1 wrote:In terms of how one should approach a story like this:

You shouldn't appropriate the end-result of any event as a validation of your hypothesis.

"I had an apple.  A few days after I shouted at it, it started turning brown."  

What you did, or what happened, is not the reason for the change you subsequently observed.
Not necessarily, and not always.  But it can be in some cases.
The fact that the (Entirley unverified) case the OP mentioned is a one-off, tends to support a conclusion of "coincidence" rather than "miracle".
I understand the concept of "coincidence".  But I do not know exactly what constitutes a "miracle".  Wikipedia suggests: (quote)The word "miracle" is often used to characterise any beneficial event that is statistically unlikely but not contrary to the laws of nature, such as surviving a natural disaster, or simply a "wonderful" occurrence, regardless of likelihood, such as a birth. Other miracles might be: survival of an illness diagnosed as terminal(unquote).  According to this the event under discussion may be considered "a miracle" by some.  No label we pin on it is going to help me understand it.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #35  Postby octopus1 » Sat May 25, 2013 11:09 pm

I used "miracle" in the same sense that people may use it in reference to the original story.  In other words, a "religious miracle".

Such a belief would be untenable in science.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #36  Postby Al senior » Sat May 25, 2013 11:55 pm

octopus1 wrote:I used "miracle" in the same sense that people may use it in reference to the original story.  In other words, a "religious miracle".

Such a belief would be untenable in science.
As would be religion in general .
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #37  Postby octopus1 » Sun May 26, 2013 11:04 am

Well, yes  :lol:

I should've cut out the middle-man and gone straight for the jugular!
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #38  Postby Al senior » Sun May 26, 2013 5:13 pm

octopus1 wrote:Well, yes  :lol:

I should've cut out the middle-man and gone straight for the jugular!
Are gods supposed to have one of those?   :shock:  :?:
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #39  Postby Arimor » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:01 pm

- During the NDE Moorjani describes, she did not experience anything which could be properly confirmed afterwards. She heard doctors talking, for instance, but of course the doctors would have been talking, and she doesn’t say she quoted them on anything specific.
-----------------Not strictly accurate:  

"I saw and heard the conversations between my husband and the doctors taking place outside my room, about 40 feet away down a hallway. I was later able to verify this conversation to my shocked husband." - Anita Moorjani.
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Re: Anita Moorjani Paranormal NDE

Post #40  Postby Shen1986 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:04 am

Hi Arimor and welcome:

SmartXL replied:

SmartLX
replied:
1 day ago

Yes Arimor, I did read that bit. I took “verify this conversation” to mean that she simply verified that it occurred, not that she knew what anyone said. Even if she was able to pick the subject matter, would it have been that difficult to imagine that they were talking about her?


Taken from: http://asktheatheist.com/?p=1355#comments

I have also taken a look into it:

Lukas
replied:
1 day ago

Hi Arimor

Another problem is if Anitas had a near-death experience and remembers it that means her brain had to function to some degree because her memories were stored in the brain. Also her ears were not taped shut. That means her brain could have recorded somehow the conversation. We have now some evidence that even patients who are vegetative can pay attention to sound or even learn:

Patient in ‘Vegetative State’ Not Just Aware, but Paying Attention, Study Suggests:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 110558.htm

Vegetative and minimally conscious patients can learn – ScienceBlog:

http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy ... can-learn/

Individuals In Vegetative States Can Learn, Scientists Find:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 204457.htm

So you see that it again proves little to nothing. If she had her ears shut and could not hear a thing and then heard something. This would be interesting but again this would not prove a soul..


Taken from: http://asktheatheist.com/?p=1355#comments

So again this proves nothing..
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