Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

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Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #1  Postby Churchill » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:50 pm

Please excuse the slightly simplistic examples (which likely many have read a similar variant before) but I think they illustrate the point.

1)  A primitive hunter gatherer village with 100 adults enjoys 100% employment.  All of the women “gather” stuff and take care of the children while the men go fishing to get food for the village, using spears and rods.  All of the sudden the village men discover that using nets in addition to their rods and spears greatly increases their catch.  If fact with the nets, it now only takes 5 men to do what 50 men used to do.  Rational folks would say great, they are now significantly more productive, but others would argue: “OMG!!! They now have 45% unemployment!”
But the 45 men that are now unemployed are freed up to do alternate jobs that could benefit the village.  Some could become better hut builders, some could be artists, some musicians, others tax lawyers…you get the point.  The introduction of the technology, in this case the net, increased the overall efficiency and productivity of the village.  
There is a difficulty though, which is re-training the 45 men who now do not need to fish to do all of those other wonderful and needed jobs.  How fast and efficiently these men can be re-trained will likely play a factor in the social cohesion and well being of the group in general.  But that the added technology of the net is a positive for the village, IMHO, is indisputable.  

2) A modern factory assembly line has 100 workers.  Someone invents a machine that allows 12 people to now do the job which 100 of them previously did.  10 assembly workers plus 2 technicians to maintain and repair the new equipment.  OMG, 88% unemployment!!!  But now the company is more efficient, more competitive, leaner and meaner.  A net benefit to society as this now frees up the 88 workers to do other needed jobs.  The trick as always is getting these folks re-trained and back to work.  There will always be the need for people to do stuff.  We only need to come up with those new jobs faster and creatively.  
I am certainly not discounting the difficulty on the families of these 88 folks while unemployed.   It is everyone’s interest to alleviate their burden as much and as reasonable as possible by providing access to re-training and assistance.  

3) A company has 100 employees in which 50 of them have gone to overseas markets, leaving half unemployed.  The company’s payroll has just decreased by 25% (Let’s assume the new employee’s all in cost are half the previous ones).   Same as in examples 1 and 2 above, although not a technology in the strict sense of the word, something has supplanted half of the workforce that allows the company to become more efficient, freeing up half of the workforce to find other means to be productive on society’s and their own behalf.  

I believe example 1 and 2 above to be completely defensible.  Does example 3 follow from the two others?  Is example 3 just as defensible?
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #2  Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:01 am

Churchill wrote: 3) A company has 100 employees in which 50 of them have gone to overseas markets, leaving half unemployed.  The company’s payroll has just decreased by 25% (Let’s assume the new employee’s all in cost are half the previous ones).   Same as in examples 1 and 2 above, although not a technology in the strict sense of the word, something has supplanted half of the workforce that allows the company to become more efficient, freeing up half of the workforce to find other means to be productive on society’s and their own behalf.  

I believe example 1 and 2 above to be completely defensible.  Does example 3 follow from the two others?  Is example 3 just as defensible?


I think we can make the following statements.  
1) The "owners" of the firm are still making an increased profit otherwise they would not shift manufacture overseas.  Therefore it makes sense from their point of view.

2) The domestic labour force was not as efficient as the overseas labour force.  (meaning they charged too much for thier labour).  We can't get around that problem on an international level anymore.  However the domestic labour force is now unemployed and therefore available for other production activities so the domestic economy has the labour resources to return to the previous equilibrium in the long run.  

3) The domestic consumer wins because the reduced cost of overseas production means the firm can lower its selling price ( and must do so if competing firms are also manufacturing overseas)

The best example I can offer is shoes VS American passenger jets.  An American firm cannot make shoes as cheaply as a chinese firm.  However a chinese firm cannot make passenger jets.  The 50,000 people who retrained and moved from American shoe production to passenger jet production bring in more revenue than when they were making shoes.   The chinese firm has to sell many more shoes at even cheaper labour as it is now competing with all world shoe manufacturers in a low tech field..  

The only big problem is if all the domestic firms no longer have a technological or marketing or production advantage across the board.  Well thats why agriculture and mining is always the "last production stop" in countries, because you can't send land overseas.  (China knows this and is doing everything to acquire land rights oveseas so China is not caught out bidding on a competitive market for world food when cheaper Vietnamese, Cambodian manufacture products start hitting the world market as chinese labour costs (standard of living)  rise over the next 50 years)
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #3  Postby Blacksamwell » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:25 am

As I understand it, when Toyota revised their production systems in the 50's they promised that no workers would lose their job, but they might be required to learn a new task.  Their theory was that their increased quality and lowered price would earn more market share and any newly discovered capacity would be filled by more demand.

As I read it, they didn't need to fire anyone but they did shrink through natural attrition and retirement.  I know it isn't an example of offshoring positions, but it is an example of "retooling production".  Companies do this kind of thing all the time.  Offshoring production is just a more extreme and new form of retooling.
Last edited by Blacksamwell on Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #4  Postby fromthehills » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:19 am

I'm still angry about the shoe thing. Low tech field? Yea, that's why shoes suck, now. It used to be a craft. I bought some Australian boots, most comfortable boots I've ever worn. I love them. Looked at the tag, Made in China. Sure not that big a deal, I mean, except for the misrepresentation that they were Australian, but they seem very durable, and are comfortable, and cost me $200, after three months the sole is separating. They're just another {!#%@} product of cheap labor, and apparently Australia has just as shitty business practices as the US does. Same with their saddles.

My point is, sure become more efficient for things like toilet paper and crayons, but for crying out loud, some things deserve craftsmanship, like boots, and saddles, and houses, and tools, and I think automobiles do too. Outsource, or choose domestic, but for reasons of quality, not cheap labor. I bet the better part of our landfills are filled up with cheap Chinese {!#%@}. The sad part is we don't have a choice. We can buy cheap Chinese {!#%@}, or we can buy something with a name that is expensive Chinese {!#%@}. I'm not mad at the Chinese people, I'm angry at the businesses that demand crap products from them. It used to be K Mart. You could buy any amount of garbage from there, but you could go elsewhere and buy something of quality for more money. Now, more money just buys the same garbage with a different label.

The utterly depressing news is we can't really stop now. No body makes anything here anymore. In an appallingly short amount of time, anyone that knew how to make things like clothes or engine parts will be dead. For christs sakes, if I used to make my own trousers, but now I hire someone to make them, maybe I should at least keep a copy of the pattern in case things don't work out.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #5  Postby Aztexan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:13 am

In scenario 1, is there an assumption that there will be anyone out of those 100 adults who will work together while unemployed for the benefit of the community or will things get rough when deciding who gets or does what job and who the hell died and left him boss?

When humans are reduced to numbers and statistics, it is easy to leave out how those who suddenly find themselves with nothing to do will react. In my opinion, scenario 3 is bad unless the company, with their bathtubs in their yachts full of profits can branch out into other areas that will employ many, if not all, who are affected. Otherwise, they deserve all the negativity they get.

In all 3 scenarios, there has to be a will, which is to say, cooperation, and funding to do the new jobs that need to be done or you get what we have now, which is, well, you tell me.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #6  Postby KnaveOfHearts » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:43 pm

All three scenarios don't take into account the whole economy though. If the jobs leave the country that means that money would leave the country that in situations one and two would remain in the country. This is detrimental to everyone.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #7  Postby numan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:13 pm

'
fromthehills wrote:I'm still angry about the shoe thing. Low tech field? Yea, that's why shoes suck, now. It used to be a craft. I bought some Australian boots, most comfortable boots I've ever worn. I love them. Looked at the tag, Made in China. Sure not that big a deal, I mean, except for the misrepresentation that they were Australian, but they seem very durable, and are comfortable, and cost me $200, after three months the sole is separating. They're just another {!#%@} product of cheap labor, and apparently Australia has just as shitty business practices as the US does. Same with their saddles.

My point is, sure become more efficient for things like toilet paper and crayons, but for crying out loud, some things deserve craftsmanship, like boots, and saddles, and houses, and tools, and I think automobiles do too.

The point that you make is so, so true!

Just another result of the "Invisible Mind of the Marketplace" that Ellard adores so much.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #8  Postby Blacksamwell » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:52 pm

I don't buy the argument that just because the production was taken offshore that the product is automatically of lesser quality.  It all really depends on how well the company manages things.

I recently worked for a title insurance company that was moving much of their title research production and back office escrow data entry to India and the Philippines.  I encountered a great deal of prejudice from people who automatically assumed that Indians and Filipinos couldn't possibly do the work correctly.  The truth is however, that those individuals are people just like us with the same capacities to learn.  Any failures really belong to the management for not adequately preparing and training them.

Since title production in the United States is still one of those jobs where one learns through apprenticeships with experienced workers it is the kind of work that takes a long time to learn how to do correctly and the rate of necessary re-work to get perfect results is very high.  The industry as a whole has been fat, dumb, and happy for a long time with no real pressure to improve their results.  I was told over and over again that "this work can't be trained offshore", or "it's too complicated to be documented".  Since the existing culture supported a learning system that only used word of mouth they just couldn't picture how foreign workers with no concept of U.S. property ownership systems would ever be able to learn their work.

Coming from a background in biochemistry, I knew very well that as long as any procedure didn't contain infinite variables, it could be documented.  So I set to work writing manuals that captured all of the knowledge normally acquired through 2 or 3 years of apprenticeship and worked it into a step by step procedure on title research and report production.  We began creating effective title examiners from new hires in 6 weeks where it normally took 3 years of hands on experience to achieve.

Because I did the hard work to standardize and systematize the production as I moved it overseas the results were improved quality, shortened turn times, AND reduced costs.  If my manuals were correct, the work came out correct.  The majority of issues could all be traced to errors or flaws in the documentation and process I'd built.

So in my personal experience, the only reason one would get low quality results from an overseas production facility is if the management builds a system that allows for low quality results.  My experience is limited and I'd acknowledge that the results may be different for others.

In my humble opinion where the company I worked for failed was in not retraining their U.S. production staff to take over the new and necessary management and documentation roles that the offshore production model required.  They'd just fire entire departments without making any effort at retaining those people's experience and knowledge.  But then again, the company I worked for wasn't so good at effective management and leadership.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #9  Postby numan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:03 pm

'
It is the nature of monopoly capitalism to chisel pennies and continually lower the quality of its products, using advertising and other forms of brainwashing to make the zombies  customers think that everything is getting better and better!
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #10  Postby Brian Ganek » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:11 pm

Quality is king, you can find a market for shoddy goods, by why jeopardize your brand with bad manufacturing standards?  Jobs get sent overseas to improve quality and reduce unit production costs.  If you can't keep up, drop out.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #11  Postby numan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:29 pm

'
Brian Ganek wrote:Quality is king....
· · ·  :lol:

Another successfully brainwashed Yank!  As if competition is a significant factor in modern monopoly capitalism!
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #12  Postby KnaveOfHearts » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:45 pm

numan wrote:'
Brian Ganek wrote:Quality is king....
· · ·  :lol:

Another successfully brainwashed Yank!  As if competition is a significant factor in modern monopoly capitalism!


So where you live all they make is {!#%@} and they do that on purpose? He is right about quality. There are three  four factors you can choose from: quality, quantity, speed, cost and you can really only do two of them well. Most people value quality unless they need many and are in a huge hurry.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #13  Postby Internationale » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:51 pm

There are lots of factors involved in many parts of this conversation. With reference to quality--> planned obsolescence. This comes from a modern capitalist mind frame that profit is best, combined with more growth = more profit. Profit and control is the key driver in the market where the 'invisible hand' is a fallacy. The system does not do what most people say it does. If it did, those shoes would be cheaper, more comfortable, and last a lot longer than anything in the past. If you're lucky you might get the first 2 (and factor in the improvements of shoe-making technology and material technology). The reality is that marketing is used to increase the psychological worth of ever cheaper products, that need to be replace ever more frequently, thus making more and more profit. What do you think fashion is??

With reference to outsourcing jobs overseas- the assumption is that in the local economy there will be things for those unemployed people to do. History shows that this is often not the case, and that in many circumstances it takes a long time for things to adjust, those people to be re-trained (if it happens at all; they're usually discarded), and for the lives of those affected to stabilize (Detroit is a perfect example). There is also the assumption that the people who get the outsourced jobs will do the work for less to the same standard or better. The reality is that in most cases, the outcome is unlikely to be significantly affected by who is doing the job, with the disadvantage of a business being fragmented and business units being isolated and separated for the business' customers. The only real advantage is that some people in another country get to be exploited in new ways and a multi-national corporation makes more profit. The negative impact of outsourcing for the locals is heavily compounded when there isn't economic growth, and the local economy doesn't have much money flowing through it.

Shame about the shoes hills. Yes, Australian multi-nationals are as {!#%@} and dodgy as the rest of them (the glory of globalisation). Always check the 'Made in" label, although in the UK I've started to notice that lots of clothing doesn't have that label at all. Buy some R.M. Williams next time. They might be a lot more than $200 though. No idea how comfortable they'll be, but they should last a while, and you'll be able to get them re-heeled etc. It's a shame you don't have a cobbler nearby. I was fortunate to have one across from where I worked at home; he made some incredible shoes by hand, with good quality materials, and they were cheaper than the expensive mass produced crap, and lasted 3 times as long.

You make interesting points Churchill, but your village is basically gone. It might help in describing an idea (just like most people who love capitalism like to use the small village analogy), but it does not represent the reality of how complex our societies now are, and thus makes the value of the ideas questionable when concerning the practicalities of outsourcing.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #14  Postby numan » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:43 pm

'
KnaveOfHearts wrote: Most people value quality....

· · ·  :shock: · · ·  :roll:  · · · :laff:  · · · :rotfl:
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #15  Postby numan » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:46 pm

'
Internationale wrote:You make interesting points Churchill, but your village is basically gone. It might help in describing an idea (just like most people who love capitalism like to use the small village analogy), but it does not represent the reality of how complex our societies now are, and thus makes the value of the ideas questionable....

I think it was Marshall McLuhan who remarked that most people are driving into the future with their eyes firmly fixed on the rear-view mirror.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #16  Postby fromthehills » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:56 am

Blacksamwell wrote:I don't buy the argument that just because the production was taken offshore that the product is automatically of lesser quality.  It all really depends on how well the company manages things.


Certainly, I agree. It's not that America made superior products, especially 80s and 90s auto production. I'm saying that in certain fields, craftsmanship trumps  should trump mass production, and we're loosing craftsmen as fast as we're loosing our shirts in this country.

I'm an old school carpenter. I used to be a ruthlessly fast framer, but that's a young man's game, like pro sports you're washed up in the low 30s. Now I'm slow and expensive, but my product has to be perfect, or I eat the cost and start over. Customers wait, and get anxious, but at the end they happily write the check.

It's not the fault of the foreign laborer, I don't think that. I think it's the fault of what we demand, as far as instant product, and what we are settling for, as in " I bought it for ten bucks, so what it only lasted a month ". Then toss it. That's the bummer. Disposable world. There's nothing that says I can't buy a cell phone that I don't have to chunk in a year, but that's the way it is. Try finding a repair shop, with a real person, that fixes TVs, phones, whatever. We don't make things to last, and nothing repairable, then we preach for a BS recycling plan. What about built to last? I don't even think the duplicitous truck ad claims that anymore.

We should be able to buy a car, phone, computer, et cetera, that lasts for the rest of our life, is upgradable, repairable, and durable. We have that technology, but we settle for the par, the idea that plastic, programmed to fail, poorly made junk, that we buy, toss, and buy again, over and over, is acceptable. Woo hoo, I buy disposable {!#%@}, but I recycle. That makes me a good person, right? It's BS.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #17  Postby numan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:19 am

'
fromthehills wrote:We should be able to buy a car, phone, computer, et cetera, that lasts for the rest of our life, is upgradable, repairable, and durable.

Well, then you should be dead set against monopoly capitalism, which is dedicated to waste, planned obsolescence, making things unrepairable, lying about everything they do, chiseling on quality whenever they can, and, in general, never giving the suckers an even break.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #18  Postby fromthehills » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Maybe. We're supposed to be against monopoly, it cripples capitalism. I try to spend my money with the small business, but it's getting harder to do, and any good small business seems to grow to a point where they are bought by some big competitor, and then it just produces the same crap. If that's what you mean, then yea, I think I am.

I used to buy Filson clothes. Made in Seattle. Heavy wool, heavy canvas, thick leather. A guy couldn't get dressed for any less than a few hundred bucks, or come out weighing less than twenty five pounds heavier, but it took being dragged down the highway to tear anything up. I still have some stuff that's well over ten years old, that I wore daily building houses. Filson was bought by Ralph Lauren. They still have some of their wool stuff, made in Seattle, but most of it is made in China, now. Ralph Lauren ran with the fact that Filson was more expensive than other clothes, sent the patterns to China, and raised the prices. Now you can also get some pretty boy button down, called Filson, for over a hundred dollars, but it's just the same crappy shirt you buy in JC Penny for $30-40. Probably produced and shipped for $2. But what's the answer to that? We can't force people to not sell out, and we can't force someone that bought the company to maintain high standards.

My hope is for something good to come out of this recession. I may be dreaming a bit, but I'd like to see excessive wrapping, and disposable drink containers become too costly to make sense anymore. I'd like to see, (which is happening somewhat), people holding on to their cars for longer than it takes for the tires to wear out, and start demanding higher quality in order to achieve that. Well, so on and so forth, you get the point.

Of course I'd like to see a younger generation come up that will appreciate quality products. I have hand-forged chisels and axes that will last many generations, but with the current mentality, I may as well just have them buried with me for all the use and care they would get.

( :shiver: I can just see some idiot using my razor sharp framing chisel to scrape concrete, then proclaiming it dull, tossing it out, and heading to Wal Mart for a cheap new one. ) Better to bury them with me.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #19  Postby numan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:54 pm

'
fromthehills wrote: We're supposed to be against monopoly....

Really? Who are these "we"?  And where does this "supposed to" come from?

The rich and the powerful, the various organs of the state, the power of finance, all have the single aim of promoting monopoly.

The only places I find an animus against monopoly is in high school civics classes, in the prole-feed that is churned out for the masses, and in the confused thinking of the serfs who are bamboozled by their masters.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #20  Postby vanderpoel » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:06 pm

numan wrote:'
It is the nature of monopoly capitalism to chisel pennies and continually lower the quality of its products, using advertising and other forms of brainwashing to make the zombies  customers think that everything is getting better and better!

No numan, when we use advertising we add value to the product.

Your attempt to malign advertising as the means by which capitalists lower the quality of their products is not unexpected given your sentiments on capitalism but it does show your naiveté on the matter.

Perception is one the most important assets of a product or service.

Apparently, branded products are more desirable to the consumers, so when they think they get a better product they actually do. You yourself have invested great effort in branding your image as a socially conscious alien and as a result I think of you as more valuable than the average American zombie.

The measure of value is in the perception as well. a good example here would be the ongoing debate between PC and MAC. No doubt both products are fairly equal in the mastery of their tasks, yet the perception is that one must love one and hate the other.

The perception of higher value is often the result of higher pricing rather than improvements in quality as Gucci found out in their marketing when their sales soared upon increasing their stickers.

We do our best to brand 'Made in America' to the world as well, alas apparently without success in your neck of the woods. Makes me wonder if that is where your world of monopoly capitalism exists since it is certainly not here in America where every businessman understands that a competitive edge lies in the creation of products that are better and cheaper.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #21  Postby numan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:52 pm

'
vanderpoel wrote:No numan, when we use advertising we add value to the product.

· · ·  :shock:  · · ·  :roll:  · · ·  :lol:  · · ·  :laff:  · · ·  :rotfl:

Yeah, sure. And when the feudal lord relieves the serf of most of his crop, he is benefiting the serf enormously!

...in America where every businessman understands that a competitive edge lies in the creation of products that are better and cheaper.

Anyone who "understands" that understands nothing at all.  

With advertising, propaganda and brainwashing, you don't need to waste time and money making products better and cheaper----you can make them worse and more expensive and still convince enough fools to buy them so that you wind up with a hefty profit.

Such is the result of monopoly capitalism---the ultimate glory of "the Invisible Mind of the Marketplace."
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #22  Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:29 pm

numan wrote:' Just another result of the "Invisible Mind of the Marketplace" that Ellard adores so much.


Adam Smith used the expression "The hidden hand"  not "the invisible mind".  However I accept "invisible mind" has the same meaning.

I don't adore "the hidden hand" .....I simply accept it as a working theory that has validity in econometric research.   It is just a model and no models are perfect.  
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #23  Postby numan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:44 am

'
Oh, poor Matthew!  Are you so impervious to humour that you do not understand  that "the Invisible Mind" is satire upon the cliché of "the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace" ? !!

You are as humourless as an American.  I hope that you are not typical of all Australians.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #24  Postby Bunyip » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:04 am

"Good"? For whom? Probably good for the owners and their increased profits,and that's the point.

"Good' or 'bad' are relative moral concepts at the best of times. They are irrelevant within the capitalist system which is innately  amoral in my opinion..
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #25  Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:56 am

numan wrote:'
Oh, poor Matthew!  Are you so impervious to humour that you do not understand  that "the Invisible Mind" is satire upon the cliché of "the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace" ? !!

You are as humourless as an American.  I hope that you are not typical of all Australians.


No Numan.  I simply used the correct term because "hidden hand" has a specific meaning in economics as proposed by Adam Smith.  It is not a cliche....it is a "fact"

In addition, considering the USA has both produced and enjoyed comedy ranging from the Marx Brothers, Merry Melodies, M*A*S*H to the Simpsons, I don't think you can say Americans are humourless.  (What is your favourite German or French comedy TV show?  Do you enjoy Latvian stand-up comedy?  Does Gogol make you snort through your nose? )

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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #26  Postby fromthehills » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:36 am

numan wrote:'
fromthehills wrote: We're supposed to be against monopoly....

Really? Who are these "we"?  And where does this "supposed to" come from?

The rich and the powerful, the various organs of the state, the power of finance, all have the single aim of promoting monopoly.

The only places I find an animus against monopoly is in high school civics classes, in the prole-feed that is churned out for the masses, and in the confused thinking of the serfs who are bamboozled by their masters.


We, as Americans, we, meaning our founding fathers set it up that way, ergo supposed to. It is sad that I have to be the one to explain basic understanding of the language to you, Numan.

I understand that the rich strive to gain more wealth, and monopoly makes sense to that end. Not in the long term, though, or the bigger picture. Competition brings better technology, and lower prices. {!#%@}, a child can see that. I've expressed my dissatisfaction with the product, but without healthy competition, which is becoming our problem, we have no incentive to provide a better product.

What you fail at, Numan, is reading and responding to a full statement. You pick a quote out of context and attack it, just like a poor weakling would. Stop your BS bratty technique, and present a {!#%@} argument. If you need help, PM me, I'll do what I can.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #27  Postby fromthehills » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
numan wrote:'
Oh, poor Matthew!  Are you so impervious to humour that you do not understand  that "the Invisible Mind" is satire upon the cliché of "the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace" ? !!

You are as humourless as an American.  I hope that you are not typical of all Australians.


No Numan.  I simply used the correct term because "hidden hand" has a specific meaning in economics as proposed by Adam Smith.  It is not a cliche....it is a "fact"

In addition, considering the USA has both produced and enjoyed comedy ranging from the Marx Brothers, Merry Melodies, M*A*S*H to the Simpsons, I don't think you can say Americans are humourless.  (What is your favourite German or French comedy TV show?  Do you enjoy Latvian stand-up comedy?  Does Gogol make you snort through your nose? )


John Stewart, South Park, SNL, a multitude of comedians.. You know, though, what made beer squirt out of my nose, was an Australian flick called "Kenny". If you didn't laugh at that, you don't know humor. That guy was awesome!
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #28  Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:44 am

fromthehills wrote: You know, though, what made beer squirt out of my nose, was an Australian flick called "Kenny". If you didn't laugh at that, you don't know humor. That guy was awesome!


"Kenny" and "poo university" reflects Australian cultural humour quite well.  
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #29  Postby numan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:47 pm

'
fromthehills wrote: Competition brings better technology, and lower prices. {!#%@}, a child can see that. I've expressed my dissatisfaction with the product, but without healthy competition, which is becoming our problem, we have no incentive to provide a better product.

But, my obsessive friend, the point is that monopoly capitalism makes healthy competition impossible!
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #30  Postby numan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:13 pm

'
Matthew Ellard wrote:In addition, considering the USA has both produced and enjoyed comedy ranging from the Marx Brothers, Merry Melodies, M*A*S*H to the Simpsons, I don't think you can say Americans are humourless.

Well, Matthew, since you were not born and raised in the USA, and your knowledge of America is only theoretical, you may be forgiven for not knowing that most Americans are so exceedingly humourless that they need to hire people to provide them with humour.  Most of these are either Canadians or Americans of a non-Anglo or Germanic ethnic background---usually Jewish.  Americans are able to recognize humour (provided it is not too sophisticated)---they just can't produce it.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #31  Postby vanderpoel » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:00 pm

numan wrote:'
Matthew Ellard wrote:In addition, considering the USA has both produced and enjoyed comedy ranging from the Marx Brothers, Merry Melodies, M*A*S*H to the Simpsons, I don't think you can say Americans are humourless.

Well, Matthew, since you were not born and raised in the USA, and your knowledge of America is only theoretical, you may be forgiven for not knowing that most Americans are so exceedingly humourless that they need to hire people to provide them with humour.  Most of these are either Canadians or Americans of a non-Anglo or Germanic ethnic background---usually Jewish.  Americans are able to recognize humour (provided it is not too sophisticated)---they just can't produce it.

I guess you've never watched Glen Beck or George Bush.

On a serious note, Stephen Colbert is an original American comic genius who single-handedly saved the hosting of the Olympic winter games in Canada.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #32  Postby Brian Ganek » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:16 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Adam Smith used the expression "The hidden hand"  not "the invisible mind".  However I accept "invisible mind" has the same meaning.

I don't adore "the hidden hand" .....I simply accept it as a working theory that has validity in econometric research.   It is just a model and no models are perfect.  


Adam Smith also discussed the problem of Monopoly in the marketplace.  Does numan think this is some new problem?
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #33  Postby numan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:30 pm

'
No, it is a very old problem which Americans cannot recognize and deal with.

If it were a delusion, then they might be able to perceive it.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #34  Postby Internationale » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:42 pm

fromthehills wrote:We, as Americans, we, meaning our founding fathers set it up that way, ergo supposed to.
My understanding is limited (considering the scope, and my background), but didn't the founding fathers simply aim to ensure land-owners (the wealthy) would remain in control of the country (monopoly of power)? with the misdirecting hullabaloo about people being created equal etc etc. I'm pretty sure the only thing they wanted to stop was religious institutions/beliefs influencing the land-owners and poor 'unintelligent' people running the country; not monopoly capitalism...
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #35  Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:27 am

Brian Ganek wrote: Adam Smith also discussed the problem of Monopoly in the marketplace.  Does numan think this is some new problem?


numan wrote: No, it is a very old problem which Americans cannot recognize and deal with.If it were a delusion, then they might be able to perceive it.


Industrial nitrates for gunpowder manufacture were a British monopoly at ther start of the American War of Independence.  The early Americans dealt with that matter.    

Anyway monopolies are part of competitive capitalism.  A monopoly produced product still has utility competition for a share of the disposable income of households against alternative purchases.   A monopoly firm still experiences supply curves and will adjust its price accordingly.  
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #36  Postby numan » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:34 pm

'
You're great on theory, Matthew; it's just reality you have a problem with.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #37  Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:22 am

numan wrote:'
You're great on theory, Matthew; it's just reality you have a problem with.


Thank's Numan.  I will inform his honour, of your opinion, next time I'm in court representing the crown or presenting "expert witness" evidence in a prosecution concerning international "thin capitalisation" arbitrage activities to reduce domestic taxation liabilities through double tax agreements.    

You can quote from your Oxford Dictionary of Familiar Quotations to show him your wealth of knowledge concerning economics.

Somehow I think the defence will be more concerned with my submissions than yours
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #38  Postby vanderpoel » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:37 am

numan wrote:'
You're great on theory, Matthew; it's just reality you have a problem with.

I'm sure you're quite right numan, after all, as you have stated previously, intelligence begins with telepathy.

Since you have made contact with Matthew before he reached the stage of telepathy it is encumbered upon you to intervene and make direct mind-to-mind contact with him to make your subliminals less ambiguous.

Don't worry about me, I feel you man.
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #39  Postby numan » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:45 am

'
Matthew Ellard wrote:
numan wrote:You're great on theory, Matthew; it's just reality you have a problem with.

Thank's Numan.  I will inform his honour, of your opinion, next time I'm in court representing the crown or presenting "expert witness" evidence in a prosecution concerning international "thin capitalisation" arbitrage activities to reduce domestic taxation liabilities through double tax agreements.    

Good grief, Matthew, are you so far gone as to think that a court of law has anything to do with reality?
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Re: Sending Jobs Overseas - Good or Bad?

Post #40  Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:04 am

numan wrote:'Good grief, Matthew, are you so far gone as to think that a court of law has anything to do with reality?


The guys doing two to five years in Silverwater gaol or lose their home and assets, would argue otherwise.  
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