Kundalini

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hypnoticpython
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Kundalini

Postby hypnoticpython » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:31 am

Hey, I came to this website to ask a question. Where can I find evidence to debunk the idea of a "kundalini" (literally a snake wrapped around the spine, supposedly related to spirituality) that is found in Yoga? An answer would be much appreciated.

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Any Xray

Postby Brevabloke » Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:53 pm

Just have a look at a spinal X-ray. No snake. Try an MRI scan. No snake. or a PET scan. No snake.

Therefore there is no snake.
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Postby corymaylett » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:56 pm

My understanding of kundalini is that it's not supposed to be a "literal" snake, but rather some kind of spiritual energy in all of us that can be awakened under the right circumstances. This energy is commonly symbolized as a sleeping, coiled serpent at the bottom of the spine.

As far as debunking it is concerned, geech, where to start. I haven't seen a shred of evidence for kundalini, and, anyway, spiritual energy (or its twin, psychic energy) pretty well contradicts the modern world's basic understanding of physics and biology.

One interesting aspect of eastern mysticism is that much of it is not meant to be taken literally. Instead there's often an amorphous blend of religion, philosophy, symbolism and personal interpretation that's often difficult to pin down in a way that lends itself to being debunked.

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thanks

Postby hypnoticpython » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:29 pm

[hide][/hide]
Last edited by hypnoticpython on Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Capthorne » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:54 am

What a shame. When I saw the title of this thread on the index I thought it sounded like a kind of rice. My mistake. Please carry on.
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Re: Kundalini

Postby maatorc » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:29 am

hypnoticpython wrote:Hey, I came to this website to ask a question. Where can I find evidence to debunk the idea of a "kundalini" (literally a snake wrapped around the spine, supposedly related to spirituality) that is found in Yoga? An answer would be much appreciated.


Hi HP -

Without telling you what to think, in the Yoga system, and certain western disciplines, humans are understood to have two bodies, a mental and a physical. The mental has seven energy centres. These energy centres connect with the seven primary endocrine glands. These primary endocrine glands connect with seven primary ganglia in the sympathetic nervous sytem. These seven primary ganglia connect with the cerebro-spinal system.

In this system, Kundalini is connected with the functioning of the mental body energy centre said to be at the base of the abdomen, called the Base centre, and is thought to powerfully influence the suprarenal glands. Conversely, it is also thought that another mental body energy centre said to be located in the general area of the crown of the skull, and in fact called the Crown centre, influences the pineal body and it's conection to the sympathetic nerves, which this system associates with consciousness and subtle realizations.

The Kundalini concept is an element of a very old and complex system about the nature and purpose of humanity.

Is this Kundalini idea true? Is it false? The above comments simply say where the idea belongs. If the Yoga system is false Kundalini is false. If the Yoga system is true Kundalini is true.

Regards - Maatorc
Last edited by maatorc on Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Any Xray

Postby Wyvern » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:53 am

Brevabloke wrote:Just have a look at a spinal X-ray. No snake. Try an MRI scan. No snake. or a PET scan. No snake.

Therefore there is no snake.

God loves a smart***.




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Postby Mind Not Matter » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:10 pm

Just have a look at a spinal X-ray. No snake. Try an MRI scan. No snake. or a PET scan. No snake.

Therefore there is no snake.


Funny, but no x-ray, MRI, or PET can identify or locate the mind.

Therefore there is no mind. :wink:


Gotchya!!! 8-)
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.
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Postby Capthorne » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:22 pm

The snake idea is only one of many attempts to explain the inexplicable, such as "chi", the "meridians" of acupuncture (the more accurate translation is actually just "lines" but it doesn't sound so impressive. "Mind" is the current common term for a thing which seems to exist but can't be found. Like phlogiston, they are all explanations that appear to fit the then observed facts. What is interesting to me is how they persist even after the true explanations are disclosed.
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Postby Wayward_Son » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:16 pm

"What is interesting to me is how they persist even after the true explanations are disclosed."

Sure, in regards to phlogiston... but what about the mind? Since when as the "true explanation" of the mind been disclosed?

Or am I just misunderstanding you?

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Postby Andy68 » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:35 pm

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Just have a look at a spinal X-ray. No snake. Try an MRI scan. No snake. or a PET scan. No snake.

Therefore there is no snake.


Funny, but no x-ray, MRI, or PET can identify or locate the mind.

Therefore there is no mind. :wink:


Gotchya!!! 8-)

Of course a scan can locate and identify your mind. Hook your brain up to a scanner and it will show clearly when you are thinking, when you are sleeping, if you are conscious or unconsious, etc. The mind is easy to locate.

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Postby Capthorne » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:40 pm

Wayward_Son wrote:Or am I just misunderstanding you?


Yes.
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Postby Mind Not Matter » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:58 am

Of course a scan can locate and identify your mind. Hook your brain up to a scanner and it will show clearly when you are thinking, when you are sleeping, if you are conscious or unconsious, etc. The mind is easy to locate.


A misconception my friend. You are confusing brain with mind. One contains matter, the other doesn't. The mind and brain are not one and the same just as intellect and wisdom are two different and distinct things. You may be able to measure intelligence (IQ) but wisdom cannot be measured.

What is mind? Not matter. What is matter? Never mind.
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Mind Not Matter » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:36 am

Wisdom is easily measured by the avoidance of failure.


I would imagine that this would depend upon one's perception of success and failure....all ideations that stem from the mind? :wink:

What are Bon mots?
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Mind Not Matter » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:54 am

Of course a scan can locate and identify your mind. The mind is easy to locate.


If you take apart a house shingle by shingle, rafter by rafter, brick by brick....I ask you to please show me where is this house?

If you take apart a car, tire by tire, component by component, part by part....I ask you to please show me where is this car?

If you take apart a human, limb by limb, organ by organ, part by part.....I ask you to please show me where is this mind?

They may have saved Einstein's and Hitler's brains, but they did not preserve their minds.

You may argue that the mind ceases to function at the time of death but how can you verify this? Perhaps there are streams of people's consciousness floating and colliding all over the universe/universes? Unless you have a 'mind-o-meter' one cannot really know?

Buddhism defines eight distinct levels of consciousness, the eighth one being the 'alaya consciousness'. This alaya is described as the 'storehouse consciousness' where all the seeds of your past thoughts and actions (good and bad) are stored....kind of like a karma garden. At the time of death all other seven levels are said to cease and it is only this alaya or 'stream consciousness' that continues, determining whether one will have a favourable or unfavourable rebirth. I know that many do not buy rebirth. People claim if there is rebirth why can I not remember any previous lives? Perhaps we have not learned to develop our minds to this advanced level? The Buddha recollected more than 500 of his previous lives!
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Andy68 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:04 pm

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Of course a scan can locate and identify your mind. The mind is easy to locate.


If you take apart a house shingle by shingle, rafter by rafter, brick by brick....I ask you to please show me where is this house?

If you take apart a car, tire by tire, component by component, part by part....I ask you to please show me where is this car?

If you take apart a human, limb by limb, organ by organ, part by part.....I ask you to please show me where is this mind?

The house is the pile of junk lying at your feet; the car is the pile of junk at your feet; the man is the pile of meat at your feet. These examples are so low brow I find it hard to believe that you even buy them.

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Postby Andy68 » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:12 pm

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Of course a scan can locate and identify your mind. Hook your brain up to a scanner and it will show clearly when you are thinking, when you are sleeping, if you are conscious or unconsious, etc. The mind is easy to locate.


A misconception my friend. You are confusing brain with mind. One contains matter, the other doesn't. The mind and brain are not one and the same just as intellect and wisdom are two different and distinct things. You may be able to measure intelligence (IQ) but wisdom cannot be measured.

A misconception? Prove it. Explain your theory, explain how you will verify it. Let's see some verifiable, testable proofs, rather than attemps at philosophizing an answer.
As far as your mind/brain intellect/wisdom argument is concerned, go get a dictionary. Intellect and wisdom are words people came up with so they could have discussions. They have different definitions. I don't think anyone would argue that they are the same thing. Your argument isn't analogous at all.

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Postby Mind Not Matter » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:08 pm

As far as your mind/brain intellect/wisdom argument is concerned, go get a dictionary. Intellect and wisdom are words people came up with so they could have discussions. They have different definitions. I don't think anyone would argue that they are the same thing. Your argument isn't analogous at all.


The attainment of wisdom is not an intellectual or academic exercise. Wisdom can only be
gained by means of mental purification and is obtained by transforming intellectual knowledge
into actual living proof allowing one to see things the way they really are, free from the clouds
of delusion.

Excerpts from the Avatamsaka Sutra;

Of all things seen in the world
Only mind is the host;
By grasping forms according to interpretation
It becomes deluded, not true to reality.

All is clearly seen once the great mind is developed.
That mind is far-reaching, as vast as the cosmos;
Without reliance, unchanging, like space---
It clearly comprehends the realm of truth, apart from discriminatory thought.


This body--ac omposite of the four elements (earth, water, fire, and air)--is not "me".
The same is true of our mind-consciousness, which is merely a synthesis of our perception of form, sound, smell, taste, touch, and phenomena.
~Dharma Master Thich Thien Tam


This is not our True mind!

It is better to cherish the notion of an ego than to entertain the notion of emptiness derived from the view of being and non-being, for those who so believe fail to understand the fundamental fact that the external world is nothing but a manifestation of the mind.
~The Buddha, Lankavatara Sutra



The world is like a mirage,
Differentiated because of conceptions;
Knowing the world is an ideation,
One is freed from the delusion of thought, view, and mind.

~Avatamsaka Sutra
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Mind Not Matter » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:08 pm

In other words, you have no answer to the questions asked, nor can you explain the science.

Not very wise.

--J.D.


No view is seeing
Which can see all things;
If one has any views about things,
This is not seeing anything.
~Avatamsaka Sutra
:wink:

Wisdom is easily measured by the avoidance of failure.


So if one is successful at his/her suicide attempt (hereby the avoidance of failure) one can assume that this person had much wisdom?
:?:
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Mind Not Matter » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:43 pm

More irrelevant bad poetry and similar foolishness.


No one is bound to believe anything if it does not appeal to his reason. Nor is it proper to reject anything because it cannot be conceived by one's limited knowledge. :wink:
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Mind Not Matter » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:19 pm

Let's see some verifiable, testable proofs, rather than attemps at philosophizing an answer.


There are indeed countless persons who have no direct or conscious interest in what are loosely called "the things of the mind," that is, deep reasonings upon abstract truths, such as are the delight of the practiced philosopher. There are many who have no sympathy with such things; who regard effort spent upon them as idleness and waste of time; who consider all "philosophizing" as silly vaporizing in a world of unreality. It is remarkable that this should be, since the philosopher, above all others, is most thoroughly and exclusively concerned with reality. It is remarkable, but it is so. But the point to be made here is that even those who regard professed philosophers as fools who wear out their minds (and their readers and hearers) in meaningless discussions of "the whichness of what" and "the whatness of which," -- even those scoffers to whom there is no important reality beyond machines and microscopes and bread and sport, even these are seekers after facts with their causes and reasons, their how's and their why's. Your "practical" person, full of scorn for philosophy, is none the less an ardent admirer of the man who knows his job; it is his own proudest boast that in his special sphere of interest and activity he "knows all the answers."
The greatest mystery is not that we have been flung between the profusion of the earth and the galaxy of the stars, but that in this prison we can fashion images of ourselves sufficiently powerful to deny our nothingness.

~Andre Malraux, 'The Walnut Trees of Altenburg'

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Postby Andy68 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:08 pm

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Andy68 wrote:Let's see some verifiable, testable proofs, rather than attemps at philosophizing an answer.


There are indeed countless persons who have no direct or conscious interest in what are loosely called "the things of the mind,"...

I'm afraid you misunderstand me. I loved and appreciate philosophy; I read Aristotle for fun. I am not attacking philosophy; I am attacking your attempt at philosophy, which is neither good nor to the point nor proof of what you appear to be claiming.

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Postby HghrSymmetry » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:44 pm

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Nor is it proper to reject anything because it cannot be conceived by one's limited knowledge. :wink:


If one can't conceive it, twould seem that acceptance or rejection becomes moot.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby agnostic_alchemy » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:57 pm

Hello everyone,

This is the first time I have posted as I am interested in the subject of kundalini after myself having the 'kundalini awakening' experience which the OP refers to. My training is in psychology, which I will be doing to Phd level soon, and, whilst being a meditator, I am certainly not ‘into the newage’ or any suchlike. Having this experience certainly does make you think about things a little differently and I feel that, after my experience, I perhaps could shed some light on this conversation.

As one poster rightly pointed out, of course the metaphor of the snake normally coiled 3 and a half times around the spine is just that.. a metaphor. It is however also a visualisation that yogis employ to bring on the experience of kundalini awakening, which in my belief, based on my own experience, is a psycho-biological phenomenon that is quite normal and non-esoteric, even though it is quite rare.

Since the K experience, which happened about 6 months ago, the sensations and feelings in my body and mind have been overwhelmingly different to what I have been used to. There are the characteristic burning sensations along my spine, in the small of my back, in the back of my neck. I feel like I have this orgasmic energy flowing through me.. It is like a weak orgasm but that spreads all over the body. These sensations do feel a little strange but they are accompanied by tremendous feelings of bliss, peace and tranquillity. It is absolutely remarkable and when it happened to me I was in a kind of shock for a while, but the sensations never go away and in fact intensify over time.. although in the short-term they can seem to recede for a bit at times and not be so noticeable.

I do understand that until one has had the experience of this, there is no way of knowing that kundalini is real. And even then, there is no way to confirm the experience empirically. At least not yet. There was a physicist who had a kundalini awakening called Hiroshi Motoyama that was trying to create ways to measure subtle energy, what yogi's call 'prana', (kundalini is like an intense torrent of this stuff which humans are normally thought to only have in small 'drips' ) however I dont think he was ever successful in measuring it. Perhaps there is more recent research that I am overlooking.

I’m sure many of you think that I’m making this up, or perhaps just have managed to imagine it but I am sure that if the things that are going on in my body were going on in your body you would be convinced of their reality too. Well, perhaps you might think you were going crazy actually! And that will always be a possibility for me I suppose (although that agnosticism can be applied to any private experience that is not confirmable).

I will end this with a personal feeling. Kundalini (or whatever you want to call it) is an astonishing and remarkable experience, which I intuit (and most pre-modern wisdom tradition confirm) is available to anybody. It can happen through spiritual practice when one reaches a point of complete peace and silence, it can be sometimes released in the serene fires of tantric lovemaking, or it can be brought on (or so I have heard) by all manner of things, like child-birth, a near death experience, reaching an existential rock bottom etc… those are called ‘spontaneous awakenings’. It is something that makes me feel tremendous joy and peace that makes life so much richer, so much happier. I don’t believe it is what the traditions call ‘enlightenment’ but I certainly feel lighter!

So I suppose the OP wants to ‘debunk’ kundalini as part of a generalised assault on the vulgarities of the ‘new age’ scene (a crusade which as it happens has my sympathy for the most part as interpretations often turn true spiritual practice into fluffy Californianised gimmicks!) The truth however, is that these experiences are real, but they are only observable/validated by phenomenological enquiry, a first person science, of which I have found meditation to be the greatest tool.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:59 pm

Can't debunk metaphysical constructs. Nobody can prove it ain't so. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Re: Kundalini

Postby Gord » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:33 am

Pyrrho wrote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Is too is too. :P
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Kundalini

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:55 pm

I think you can experience a profound Kundalini effect by sitting on a tack.
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Re: Kundalini

Postby mingis » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:15 am

Gord wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Is too is too. :P

Broken wires of voltmeter are not evidence of absence of voltage.
If someone fails hunting immaterial entities using material snare, it does not mean they are not existent.

Andy68 wrote:I am attacking your attempt at philosophy, which is neither good nor to the point nor proof of what you appear to be claiming.

What is the proof of your method that everything should be proven? What is the evidence in your decision about what is good and what is wrong?

What problems do you see in duality of a house or human body/soul? Are you not satisfyed about crystals or fractals? As a product of some law of big systems? Are they just piles of junk? Dont you see any difference between pile of bolts and a locomotive? Matter is the same, the form, the order, the system are different. Geometry of the set is not property of the elements. Material bodies have coordinates, the coordinates themselves have not, they are immaterial.

If you would scan my brains, you will probably find words ("dog"), letters "d", "o" and "g", but you will never find the abstraction "a dog" which is signed by that symbol. The meanings of symbols are immaterial social product, they are meaningless without a context of the language, without a social experience, without a system. You could even extract a picture of the dog from my brains, but you will never know, whether it is picture of the partial material object Pluto, proper noun "the dog", or the sign for the set of all dogs, a common noun "a dog". From material point of view you can see ink spots on the paper, not the text. The text, the meaning is not inside of the material brains or sheets of paper, it is somewhere outside, it is property of some "collective consciousness" or something like that.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby agnostic_alchemy » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:09 pm

OK whilst I do appreciate that the mind/body problem is still a hotly debated topic, I feel like it is not really THAT interesting. I also dont think that after thousands of years of the greatest minds attempting to reconcile the 'hard problem', its going to be settled on a forum like this right now (perhaps I am being defeatist).

Idealists will use idealist rhetoric, and materialists will use materialist rhetoric, and dualists and dual-aspect monists will carve out their language games also. Positivistic science itself is metaphysical position which has an a priori faith in 3rd person observations as the best (and often only) way to to know reality, whilst introspective methods from the wisdom traditions belive ultimate reality can only truly be known through a first person experential reality, sometimes described as insight, which is not merely intellectual knowing, or book knowlege, but is a more like a mode of being, which is embodied, but cannot be adequetly put into words, or translated into the langauge of logic.

The missing dimension of 1st person science is pointed out in great lucidity in the works of Fransciso Varela, himself a cognitive scientist who is also a meditator. A mundane example of how first person approaches are important might be this: If I have an addiction, a materialist (especially in the US with NIDA controlling addiction policy), viewing mental disorder as coming from the brain, will want to put me in a brain scanner to identify lumpy bits of cerebrul stuff that might be the 'cause' of this problem. There are also cocktails of anti-drug drugs available for people with addiction that seeks to reverse neuro-adaptations that are the result of long-term addiction. In other words -- problem is brain, must fix brain.

This is a third person approach but a first person approach might go like this: Meditation might teach us to sit watching our thoughts, and build up a different relationship with the urge of craving, as we learn to replace automatic behaviour with mindfulness and awareness. How this happens is not through telling ourselves to think differently, reading a book about it, changing thoughts, or anything like that, but simply through gaining awareness of our own inner territory which eventually leads out of our addiction. Interestingly enough, Lazar et al. (2009) has persuasive evidence that meditation actually changes the size of brain areas (broadly speaking makes areas responsible for emotion and higher cognition larger). The point is, big things do happen just by sitting there without having to go directly to the brain. And, as has been noted by many addiction reasearchers, we will know doubt see changes in the brain as a result of these meditation practices, but it is not the same thing as these changes. Awareness and equinimity might CORRESPOND to changes in brain electricity, presence of neurotrasmitters and so forth but it is certainlly not REDUCIBLE to these thing. What I experience phenomenologically is not the same thing as what you see on an EEG machine.

Karl Popper famously predicted that psychology would one day just become subsumed back into phsyics, with first person approaches all just being reduced to third person ones. I don’t feel he was right about this however. Attempting to reduce psychology to only atomistic physical processes is not just inpractical (those data sets dont mean anything without the first-person experience it corresponds to) , it also considerably reduces its explanatory power. Kevin Rand and Stephen Ilardi (2005) point out that without making use of higher-order informational constructs (or mental states), a bio-reduced psychology would be left with the impossible task of mapping behaviour to combinations of brain states resulting from interaction of over 100 trillion synapses.

For now, the first person and third person must always come to the table as without either, we can only hope to achive a very partial understanding. This doesn’t solve the ‘hard problem’ of the mind/body but it gives us a reason to embrace both sides of the divide.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby Gord » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:21 am

mingis wrote:
Gord wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Is too is too. :P

Broken wires of voltmeter are not evidence of absence of voltage.

Broken wires of a voltmeter are evidence the voltmeter doesn't work. It isn't evidence of anything to do with what the voltmeter was supposed to measure.

Absence of broken wires of a voltmeter is evidence the voltmeter isn't broken.

If someone fails hunting immaterial entities using material snare, it does not mean they are not existent.

No, it doesn't mean they are not existent. However, it is still evidence that they are not existent. Whenever you look for something and do not find it, that is evidence that the thing you're looking for is not there. If you find some reason why your search was flawed, then the value of any evidence derived from your search is reduced. However, the fact that your evidence does not support your theory does not mean your search was flawed -- although people usually start by rechecking their method, they have to actually show the flaw to exist before they can discount the unpleasant evidence they've accumulated themselves.
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Re: Kundalini

Postby mingis » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:39 am

Gord wrote:No, it doesn't mean they are not existent. However, it is still evidence that they are not existent.

Hmm, got your point.
Broken wires of a voltmeter are evidence the voltmeter doesn't work.

I meant, we don't know, whether they are broken, just we are observing, that nothing is happening. I would support your possition in case when is disapearing something previously evident, when pointer is going from certain voltage to zero, but if nothing happens from very beginning? What for evidences are used – they are ground for construction of hyphotheses, of theories. Could we base a theory on the fact, that nothing is happening?
Absence of broken wires of a voltmeter is evidence the voltmeter isn't broken.

Yes, but it is allready not an absence in proper sence. Damage of the wires is lack of the functionality, of the order, non-existence of some component part. "Absence" of damage is actually presence of intact wires. Absence of non-existence is an existence itself. "Not-nothing" is "something".

BTW, everything said is irrelevant to concepts like the snake-behind-the-back, Santa or God. All they are not theories, they are poethic metaphors, abstractions, having some certain meaning, but not having evidences. Perhaps? At least material ones.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby agnostic_alchemy » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:15 pm

BTW, everything said is irrelevant to concepts like the snake-behind-the-back, Santa or God. All they are not theories, they are poethic metaphors, abstractions, having some certain meaning, but not having evidences. Perhaps? At least material ones.


Expert of myths, Joseph Campbell, argues that many myths and 'metaphors' began as internal mystical experiences, had by a sage or a saint or yogi, which then got turned into externalised 'stories' with the hope that the power of these experiences could be disseminated to a wider populace.

In a sense the magic/mythic world of pre-modern societies was not ready to hear that kundalini is a psycho-biological phenomenon that involves (as one modern theory has it) the release of bio-energy (sometimes also called 'bioplasma') from its repository in the reproductive organs, through nerve plexes in spinal column, and into the brain, where the sensations are noticed most intensely above the palate in the midbrain and in the hindbrain in a descending arc parallel to the curve of the palate. Considering that almost EVERY aspect of those societies related to deities and goddesses and devas etc. , the mythic rendering of kundalini is not hard to understand, even if has become irrelevant and unnecessary for our modern scientific sensibility.

No, instead of scientific language, Kundalini was taught to be a manifestation of the ‘goddess’ "See a snake coiled round the base of your spine and see colourful vortices of energy with Sanskrit lettering and so and so at point x and y" Are the snake and the vortices real? certainly not in a literal way. They are first and foremost teaching aids. But the teaching aids lead to a real and lasting experience which is quite unmistakable for the practitioner, which is beyond all visualisations, all mental games and ‘mythic’ status. Today, we do not need to visualise all that, we can have the experience through many means, some which have absolutely no connection to the original yogic mythology.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby mingis » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:37 am

agnostic_alchemy wrote:<...> even if has become irrelevant and unnecessary for our modern scientific sensibility. <...> instead of scientific language <...>

We just talked about the wisdom – the source of it is the poetry, mystic experience, not the science. In point of view of the wisdom it does not matter, is the Earth rotating or flat, based on particles or on Three Wales. The essence is somewhere beyond the material mechanics.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby JO 753 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:27 am

Kundalini iz the guy who gets hiz hand ripped off in Mad Max.

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Re:

Postby numan » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:24 pm

'
Andy68 wrote:The house is the pile of junk lying at your feet; the car is the pile of junk at your feet; the man is the pile of meat at your feet. These examples are so low brow I find it hard to believe that you even buy them.

You completely missed the point.

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Re:

Postby numan » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:33 pm

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Just have a look at a spinal X-ray. No snake. Try an MRI scan. No snake. or a PET scan. No snake.
Therefore there is no snake.

Funny, but no x-ray, MRI, or PET can identify or locate the mind.

Therefore there is no mind. :wink:

Gotchya!!! 8-)

A very good response. However, the "gotchya" smacks of egoistic exultation in one's superior intellectual attainments.

Thank goodness, I am very careful to avoid such crowing, no matter how justifiable it might be.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby numan » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:52 pm

'
Once I was practising some Tai Ji exercises, and the Chinese instructor came up and felt my hands and said: "Good! They are warm! That means that the "chi" is flowing through them!"

I thought immediately in my narrow, crabbed Western mental fashion: "Nonsense! The exercise has relaxed the muscles, dilated the blood vessels, caused more blood to flow through my hands and made them warmer!"

Then I thought, well, perhaps that is what the "flow of chi through the body" is all about: the Chinese think of it one way, and I think of it another.

My point is, traditional beliefs are not necessarily absurd, but one should not assume that the traditional interpretations of them are accurate.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby Flash » Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:41 am

Mind Not Matter wrote:
Funny, but no x-ray, MRI, or PET can identify or locate the mind.

Therefore there is no mind. :wink:

Gotchya!!! 8-)


numan responded:
A very good response.

No it's not. False analogy. Snake is an object, mind is a process but you can actually see that process by following the changes in the brain through time on MIR. It's like making of a sausage. The making of a sausage is not an object you can grasp but you can see it in action.
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Re: Kundalini

Postby numan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:46 pm

'
Flash wrote:... mind is a process but you can actually see that process by following the changes in the brain through time on MIR. It's like making of a sausage. The making of a sausage is not an object you can grasp but you can see it in action

You are too quick to jump to conclusions, Flash.

Following mental processes on an MRI is interesting, but it is not proof that the phyical processes in the brain solely cause what we call "mind". What happens in the brain could be simply a by-product of something that originates elsewhere.

If you watch television, you can analyse what happens in the electronic circuitry and find a rigid causal connection between what happens there and the image which is produced on the screen.

Nevertheless, the origin of the programme is elsewhere than in the guts of the television machine.

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Re: Kundalini

Postby dakini » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:20 pm

Speaking from personal experience, rather from theory: Kundalini is all too real. I had a spontaneous "rising" of the Kundalini energy years ago, and it was very intense. I know it was Kundalini because all the symptoms described in the literature were present. It was a very intense spiritual energy with sudden intuitive understanding of the nature of the universe (I wish I'd written these insights down at the time), and othery typical symptoms. I'm convinced that Kundalini is, in part, a right-brain experience (some of the symptoms fit neurologists' descriptions of right-brain functions). For a good, thorough, description of Kundalini, read Gopi Krishna's "Living with Kundalini", I think it's called. Gopi Krishna's Kundalini "rising" took over his entire life.(He was a minor gov't bureaucrat in Pakistan at the time, I think. It was his steady meditation practice over years that apparently triggered the Kundalini phenom.) Mine, fortunately, only lasted about 3 weeks. After Krishna learned to more or less "manage" or live with his symptoms and the subsequent spiritual insights gained therefrom, he came to be sponsored by the UN to go around the world and lecture about how Kundalini is the goal of human evolution. He published a couple of books on that, as well. The only way to really be convinced of the reality of Kundalini is to experience it yourself, or talk to enough people who have, that you can be convinced. If they all report similar symptoms, there must be something to it.


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