Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #1  Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:53 pm

mater deum wrote:They believe that the Moses Crew left Egypt and crossed into north-eastern Saudi Arabia.  The 'actual' Mount Sinai of the Bible is Jabal al-Lawz in Saudi Arabia.  (Look it up).  So, do any of you fellow skeptics/heathens have any info on real archeologists and the sites  in Saudi Arabia.


This is interesting but I think it is impossible to say which is the "real" Mt Sinai that the "real" Moses visited.    We know there was no exodus in reality and there is no egyptian "regal" document that mentions a pharaoh being drowned chasing his brother.   The myth probably comes from the removal of a short dynasty of semetic pharaohs called the Hyksos, 300 years earlier than the bible date.   The name "Moses" only appears after the reign of Tutmoses, a much later pharaoh who taxed the Levant.    It is therefore impossible to try apply any facts to the exodus story.  

( I think the exodus story in the bible is a complete fabrication that was required to "link" two other stories with some basis in fact.   First there is the Egyptian conquest of Judea and the normal practice of taking upper class hostages back to Egypt ( possibly explaining why "Moses" was in the royal palace) but somehow the jewish tribe is still in Judea so they make up the exodus story to explain why they are still there.  I have to remind people that "Moses" could not speak Hebrew as the language did not exist yet so his contribution to Hebrew myths is confusing.  Most scholars suggest the story was taken from the Caanites as they were related to the Hyksos. )      
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #2  Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:24 pm

mater deum wrote: I think the entire bible is myth.  The sites of `miracles`  came first, then they came up with myths explaining what happened. Religion is what we had before we had science.


I never thought for a moment that you believed in the myths.   I assumed you are like me and just interested in the origins of the myths.  

The passover is hilarious.  It killed all the first born children of Egypt.  Well apart from Pharaoh, who then chased Moses out of Egypt.  Of all the Egyptians, "god" didn't "knock off" the most dangerous "first born".   "God" is obviously a "shoddy worker".    
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #3  Postby florrie64 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:27 pm

Hi, real archaeologist here!
Just been looking at some of these videos and I'm not convinced. Their evidence seems to consist mainly of an 'altar' that basically just looks like a rock fall to me although I am no expert, you would probably need a geologist to confirm that one.
Same applies to the 'split' rock and evidence for water erosion. However, I do know a little about petroglyphs and the presence of carvings of cattle do not really prove anything as these things are notoriously difficult to date accurately. They could easily be much later, or even earlier, than the biblical Moses. The blackened top of the mountain is given as evidence of burning by god but has anyone conducted any chemical analysis to ascertain the prescence of carbonisation etc. rather than some other chemical explanation? Also, even if an archaeological dig produced evidence of a settlement there it still would'nt be proof of the existence of Moses or the Exodus. I think that the theory that the stories were made up to explain the geological features rather than the other way round is just as reasonable an explanation as the one given by these amateur 'archaeologists'.
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #4  Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:38 pm

florrie64 wrote: I think that the theory that the stories were made up to explain the geological features rather than the other way round is just as reasonable an explanation as the one given by these amateur 'archaeologists'.


I agree.  The natural formations were probably given popular religious "origins" after the myths were already widespread.  I note all the rock formations in new english colonies called "the devils balls" or ""God's hideout", named in the 18th century.  

I also think it is innate to try to link a religion to your own geography to show "possesion".  The catholics had to pretend to have bits of the "true cross" or relics to open cathederals so it is understandable that some some early muslims named a local mountain after an O.T. Quran event.   Westerners forget that early muslims had a hard time "separating" their flavour of judaism from the early christian religion being spread by the roman empire.  In some funny way early christians brought the myths to Mohommed that inspired him to start a break away religion.  
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #5  Postby Gord » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:00 am

What is an "amateur archeologist," anyway?  Is it anything like an "amateur doctor" or an "amateur lawyer?" :scratch:
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #6  Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:27 am

Gord wrote:What is an "amateur archeologist," anyway?  Is it anything like an "amateur doctor" or an "amateur lawyer?" :scratch:


More like an amateur astronomer I would reckon, but they would have to acquire some sort of funding source, as very little good archaeology can be done in your own back yard.
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #7  Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:40 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gord wrote:What is an "amateur archeologist," anyway?  Is it anything like an "amateur doctor" or an "amateur lawyer?" :scratch:


More like an amateur astronomer I would reckon, but they would have to acquire some sort of funding source, as very little good archaeology can be done in your own back yard.


I'm not too sure about that.   I think you need a bit of money to travel but many "hobby" individuals have made some big discoveries.   To me a "professional archeologist" reflects the history of archeology where most were "tomb robbers" for profit.  I prefer "academic archeologist".
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #8  Postby Gord » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:19 am

To me, "amateur" means you aren't good enough to get paid for what you do, and "professional" means you are. :wgrin:
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #9  Postby HghrSymmetry » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:42 am

Just like figure skaters.
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #10  Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:03 am

Gord wrote:To me, "amateur" means you aren't good enough to get paid for what you do, and "professional" means you are. :wgrin:


So we are all members of the Amateur Skeptic Society Forum .   Yeah....that seems about right.........just a bunch of amateurs......gasbagging away.....
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #11  Postby Gord » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gord wrote:To me, "amateur" means you aren't good enough to get paid for what you do, and "professional" means you are. :wgrin:


So we are all members of the Amateur Skeptic Society Forum .   Yeah....that seems about right.........just a bunch of amateurs......gasbagging away.....

No, I said amateurs aren't good enough to get paid but professionals are.


...oh wait, you must be one of the members who don't get paid to post here!  Sorry.  I didn't expect that. :mrgreen:
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #12  Postby seymore » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:30 pm

An amature archeologist is one that dosen't do it for money, they are the first cousins of pot-hunters.  I have a degree in archeology and  working in a group home paid better.
On the other hand, the exodus as described in the bible is absurd.  The desert could not had supported 600000 sheep/goat herders for 40 weeks let alone 40 years. The area was not as dry then as it is now but  it still could not have supported nore than a few thousand total during the best of times.
   If you want to tack stories in the Bible down to place and time, I wish you luck and advise you to pack a big lunch as it will be  :fsm: an all day job.
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #13  Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:42 pm

seymore wrote:An amature archeologist is one that dosen't do it for money, they are the first cousins of pot-hunters.  I have a degree in archeology and  working in a group home paid better.
On the other hand, the exodus as described in the bible is absurd.  The desert could not had supported 600000 sheep/goat herders for 40 weeks let alone 40 years. The area was not as dry then as it is now but  it still could not have supported nore than a few thousand total during the best of times.
   If you want to tack stories in the Bible down to place and time, I wish you luck and advise you to pack a big lunch as it will be  :fsm: an all day job.


You missed our exciting experiments with human poo at the Annotated Skeptic Bible forum.   We concluded that although human poo needs to dry first to be used as a fuel for cooking it is unlikely that the "exodus population"  spent 40 years at various transit camps waiting for their poo to dry as they would have run out of drinking water.   How's that for hard science!
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Re: Search for the 'real' Mount Sinai.

Post #14  Postby rrichar911 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:51 am

My guess is it is in the Sinai Peninsula, thus the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Peninsula

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai
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