Gonorrhea without sex.

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Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #1  Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:29 am

I attended an interesting lecture recently, by a medical researcher.   She had been asked by a defense lawyer to see if gonorrhea could be contracted without sex.

The background is that here in New Zealand, if a prepubescent child is found with gonorrhea, that is taken by the law as proof positive of sexual molestation.   A family consisted of Mum, Dad and young girl.   Dad had visited a prostitute and came back with gonorrhea, which was duly passed to Mum.   The girl was later found to have it also.   Automatic assumption - a parent molested the little girl and gave her the disease.   But all three denied it emphatically.  In spite of denials, the girl was taken from her family.

The medical researcher found that there had been numerous cases of gonorrhea transmission without sex.  In early 20th century orphanages, it was common for a child to arrive with the disease, and within months everyone had it.   That was because they shared bathwater, and the bacterium can survive in warm water for many hours.

It can also be passed on by sharing towels, or via tissues, or sharing a bed (without sex).  The family I mentioned were lower socio-economic, and shared dirty items freely about the family.

Was this a case of terrible injustice?   The researcher has not been able to get her findings accepted by the justice system.  In NZ (and I believe, the UK) it remains the case that gonorrhea infection is believed to come only from sexual molestation, if found in prepubescents.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #2  Postby Martin Brock » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:38 am

I suppose it's possible, but what's the point?
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #3  Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:47 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Was this a case of terrible injustice?   The researcher has not been able to get her findings accepted by the justice system.  


This is an awful story.  However New Zealand has a very good judicial system.  I imagine it is a matter of making an appeal against the scientific facts introduced as evidence.  This is going to take a long time but it should allow for a fair result.  (although the individuals are going to suffer in the mean time).
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #4  Postby Flash » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:38 am

So the stories about getting it from the toilet seat are all true. Now you tell me... :shock:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #5  Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:28 am

To Flash
In actual fact, it appears that you can get it from a toilet seat.   The lecture included a case history of a girl who picked it up from a toilet seat on a plane (apparently overloaded) coming from Russia.  

Gonorrhea produces pustules full of infectious bacteria.   If that pus is smeared on a hard surface, the bacteria survive until the pus dries out.  Ironically, the girl concerned apparently covered the toilet seat with toilet paper.   The pus appears to have soaked into the paper and hence to her genital region.

This business is an example of an unscientific belief that supports legal injustice.   Assuming the lecturer is correct (and she gave some very convincing scientific evidence) there will be men in prison, convicted of sexually abusing their daughters, who are innocent.

Another situation like recovered memory syndrome.  Total intellectual garbage that is believed by lawyers and judges, and which puts innocent people in prison.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #6  Postby Paul » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:54 pm

Lance Kennedy"]I attended an interesting lecture recently, by a medical researcher.   She had been asked by a defense lawyer to see if gonorrhea could be contracted without sex.

She is a quack. Can you remember  what information she based this on. Was it conjecture, an opinion, a speculation, or a hypothesis. Post what you can remember.
Gonorrhea is sexually transmitted disease.
The background is that here in New Zealand, if a prepubescent child is found with gonorrhea, that is taken by the law as proof positive of sexual molestation.
The child was molested, by someone
A family consisted of Mum, Dad and young girl.   Dad had visited a prostitute and came back with gonorrhea, which was duly passed to Mum.   The girl was later found to have it also.   Automatic assumption - a parent molested the little girl and gave her the disease.   But all three denied it emphatically.  In spite of denials, the girl was taken from her family.
Nothing to assume, he was having sex with the child. Passing on the disease is proof positive.
The medical researcher found that there had been numerous cases of gonorrhea transmission without sex.  In early 20th century orphanages, it was common for a child to arrive with the disease, and within months everyone had it.   That was because they shared bathwater, and the bacterium can survive in warm water for many hours.

Did the quack name one case where it was proven you can transmit the disease with out sexual relations.
t
can also be passed on by sharing towels, or via tissues, or sharing a bed (without sex).  The family I mentioned were lower socio-economic, and shared dirty items freely about the family.

This  makes my list as one of the most uncritical thinkers ever to make a claim she is a medical researcher.
Was this a case of terrible injustice?

Yes you wasted 60-90 minutes of your life.
 
The researcher has not been able to get her findings accepted by the justice system.  In NZ (and I believe, the UK) it remains the case that gonorrhea infection is believed to come only from sexual molestation, if found in prepubescents.

Because she is a fruit cake.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gonorrhea/DS00180
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #7  Postby bigtim » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:24 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I attended an interesting lecture recently, by a medical researcher.   She had been asked by a defense lawyer to see if gonorrhea could be contracted without sex.

... if a prepubescent child is found with gonorrhea, that is taken by the law as proof positive of sexual molestation.... Dad had visited a prostitute and came back with gonorrhea...The girl was later found to have it also.   Automatic assumption - a parent molested the little girl and gave her the disease...

The medical researcher found that there had been numerous cases of gonorrhea transmission without sex.  In early 20th century orphanages, it was common for a child to arrive with the disease, and within months everyone had it.   That was because they shared bathwater, and the bacterium can survive in warm water for many hours.

It can also be passed on by sharing towels, or via tissues, or sharing a bed (without sex).  The family I mentioned were lower socio-economic, and shared dirty items freely about the family.....


Paul59 wrote:...
She is a quack. Can you remember  what information she based this on. Was it conjecture, an opinion, a speculation, or a hypothesis. Post what you can remember.
Gonorrhea is sexually transmitted disease.

....
 
The researcher has not been able to get her findings accepted by the justice system.  In NZ (and I believe, the UK) it remains the case that gonorrhea infection is believed to come only from sexual molestation, if found in prepubescents.

Because she is a fruit cake.


Well Paul, I think your aggressive stance towards an unnamed person is pretty hefty.


Martin Brock wrote:I suppose it's possible, but what's the point?


I guess Lance's point is that if a legal precedent is based on what is believed to be a medical absolute and it turns out that it's not an absolute then injustice and harm is done.

Lance -- can you provide names, links, data for this?

Current medical understanding is that it can only be transmitted via sexual contact.  A clam that counters this requires more proof than anecdotal stories.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #8  Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:57 pm

Paul
The woman involved is Dr Felicity Goodyear-Smith, a professor of medicine at Auckland University School of Medicine.   She has been a fully reputable researcher for nearly 40 years, with numerous publications in peer reviewed medical journals.   Here is a list of some of her publications.
http://www.ifpi.org.nz/memberpublications.html

I can assure you that she is not a quack.

I am waiting to receive the written copy of the paper so I can quote it verbatam, but that will take a while.

Your assertion that gonorrhea is passed on only by sex is, in fact, a confirmation of the dogma that this researcher is fighting against.  You are not alone.   Others insist that it cannot be transmitted any other way.   This is what she is fighting.   The evidence she supplied, though, is very convincing.   Lab studies showing survival of the bacteria outside the body.   Case histories of people contracting the disease without sex.   This included entire large groups of children who were required by poverty to share bathwater, towels etc.  The only evidence she was unable to supply is actual clinicial trials.   If you want to volunteer for a trial to be infected with gonorrhea without sex, to prove it can happen, I am sure she would love to hear from you.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #9  Postby landrew » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:25 pm

Injustice will always be rampant in the courts until they begin to adopt something resembling the scientific method.  The idea that you can find the truth armed with a frontloaded conclusion is bogus and prone to failure.

To start with a conclusion and then seek rationale and evidence to prove it is a badly flawed method.  Religious creationists, mystics, pseudoscientists and charlatans of all kinds love to use this type of approach. "Seek and ye shall find" is the modus operandi for such endeavors.  It tends to give them what they need by steering their inquiry in the direction of their bias.

The only method with a good track-record for accuracy is the scientific method.  It has given us many things for which to take for granted since it was adopted a few centuries ago.  Each time we forsake it in favor of a more biased approach, we are bound for the painful consequences that ensue.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #10  Postby brauneyz » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:53 pm

Martin Brock wrote:I suppose it's possible, but what's the point?


Excuse me?  I'm assuming this child was promptly removed from the household by Family Services based on this finding.  If the finding turns out to be factually incorrect and the girl was not molested, I would think that is a rather large point.

Potentially erroneous information leading to the disruption/dissolution of a family and whatever dignity they may still possess and you wonder what the point is?  My God, man, tell me I've misunderstood your question?

Lance, what about a gonorrheal infection of the throat transmitted initially via oral sex?  (I don't think you specifically identified where the infection was.)  Kids kiss their parents.  Could the child have picked it up from kissing Mum (or Dad)?  Maybe some consider that creepy, but it hardly qualifies as molestation.

Paul, I must say, you have an odd take on this situation.  You don't seem the least bit skeptical even when there is some evidence (or at least question) of mode of transmission.  Seems a little closed-minded.   :?
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #11  Postby Paul » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:26 am

[Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine

Evidence-based or evidence-biased?
I believe the good doctor wrote this.
I Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine. I had to join and sign in to obtain  the article so I can't link it.

International consensus guidelines state that Neisseria gonorrhoeae infection in pre-pubertal children is always, or nearly always, sexually transmitted. A systematic literature review does not concur with this. N gonorrhoea was believed to solely sexually transmitted when first identified in the 1880s. However it became recognised that when the infection was introduced into children’s institutions, it rapidly sprea
among pre-pubertal girls. The medical literature records over 40 epidemics involving about 2000 children in Europe and the United States. Communal baths, towels or fabric, rectal thermometers and caregivers hands were identified as means of transmission. Although sensitive to heat and drying, gonorrhoea may remain viable in pus on cloth for several days. Several unusual accidental transmissions are reported, often due to contamination from laboratory samples. Indirect transmission occurs in epidemics of conjunctivitis in third world rural populations. Spread of infection can occur via contaminated hands of infected caregivers. While all paediatric cases of gonorrhoea must be taken seriously, including contact tracking and testing, forensic medical examiners should keep an open mind about possible means of transmission. Doctors and lawyers need to be cognisant of the large body of literature demonstrating both sexual and non-sexual means of transmission of gonorrhoea in children.
[/quote]How is it acquired?
Gonorrhea is spread via sexual contact: specifically anal, oral or vaginal contact. You can get gonorrhea without penetration. A condom will help protect you, but most men and women don't use condoms for oral sex or during foreplay, when a lot of rubbing can occur and the discharge can seep into your anus, urethra or vagina.

Im guessing, it appears the doctor has a theory that Neisseria gonorrhoeae  leakage can be transmitted with out  sex  in any  orphus. I would need   proof that the disease can be spread with out penetration. The doctor needs to present a theory with evidence the   bacteria  is still active and infectious and can be transmitted using bath towels. It does appear she associates gonorrhoeae a bacterial infection with causes of conjunctivitis which is a viral infection . According to the article she states, gonorrhoeae  although sensitive to heat and drying, gonorrhoea may remain viable in pus on cloth for several days. She provides no evidence and I was unable to confirm the claim.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #12  Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:10 am

Paul
What kind of proof would you need?   Obviously, we cannot ethically set up experiments that attempt to infect people.  Case histories and epidemiology seem to be the alternatives, which Dr. Goodyear-Smith pretty much covered in her research.   If you have a good and constructive alternative, please let us know.

Here is a reference to the bug surviving 20 hours outside the human body.
http://www.fmshk.org/database/articles/v11n04001.pdf
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #13  Postby Paul » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Scientific proof   that gonorrhea  can  be passed on by sharing towels, or via tissues, or sharing a bed without sex..Dr. Goodyear-Smith is making a medical a claim and according to the little information we have concerning the case she was unable to justify her findings according to the NZ justice system. She failed to provide conclusive scientific evidence  why the justice department should accept her theory that the disease can in fact be transmitted by any other means other then sexual intercourse. And the lack of evidence resulted in the courts decision to conclude that Gonorrhea is a sexually  transmitted disease.

Was their any evidence presented that the child was or was not sexual abused. Im going to conclude that she was examined by a doctor and medical testimony was presented at the trial and evidence presented and confirmed  she was sexually molested.
Lance wrote:
If you have a good and constructive alternative, please let us know.

There is no alternative. Nothing to refute. Dr Smith made an attempt using an alternative theory  and failed to present evidence to prove the disease can be transmitted with out sexually contact.   It has become a moot point, the case  has already been decided by an actual court
   Using  Occam's Razor:  the simplest explanation is probably the best one. The child was sexually molested and as a result, was infected by the disease.

Here is a reference to the bug surviving 20 hours outside the human body.
http://www.fmshk.org/database/articles/v11n04001.pdf
The disease can survive for 20hrs but at what point does it become inactive but capable of becoming active in a state of temporary inactivity or rest; suspended or slowed down. Does the bacteria remain Capable of germinating, living, growing and developing. Were these questions asked and answered. We don't know .
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #14  Postby bigtim » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:11 pm

Paul59 wrote:Was their any evidence presented that the child was or was not sexual abused. Im going to conclude that she was examined by a doctor and medical testimony was presented at the trial and evidence presented and confirmed  she was sexually molested.


In this case, good point to evaluate.  How old was the child, what evidence of sexual abuse was there?
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #15  Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:11 pm

In her lecture, Dr. Goodyear-Smith did mention that the child affected was examined by a doctor and no physical evidence of sexual activity was found.   The child apparently denied emphatically that anyone had sexually molested her.   I do not know her age - just that she was pre-pubescent.

Perhaps Paul can explain the histories of early 20th Century orphanages in which a child was admitted with gonorrhea and the disease rapidly spread throughout all the orphans.  Easy to explain with sharing bathwater and sharing towels.   Hard to explain by child rape, when the disease was not there earlier and suddently spread to all children, after one infected child was admitted.

I agree that it would be good to obtain more data.   However, how to test it without unethical experiments is a good question.

A brief summary is found in http://www.cureresearch.com/g/gonorrhea/contagious.htm

"Contagiousness properties of Gonorrhea:
 Contagious by sex?: Yes
 Contagious by anal sex?: Yes
 Contagious by vaginal sex?: Yes
 Contagious from clothing?: Yes
 Contagious from towels?: Yes
 Contagious mother to baby during childbirth?: Yes
"
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #16  Postby landrew » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:48 pm

It's quite human, (and also quite wrong) to become more certain of someone's guilt in proportion to the magnitude of the crime.  I actually heard a radio talkshow host suggest that DNA testing should perhaps be banned because it's allowing too many convicted "killers to get off scott-free."

Where child safety is concerned, it's not helping anyone to convict the wrong person based on poor circumstantial evidence or speculation.  The magnitude of the crime doesn't make the evidence any more valid.  The evidence is not made stronger or weaker based on the seriousness of the crime, it still has to be weighed under the same rules of logic and evidence.

The many hundreds of wrongfully-convicted alive today who were fortunate enough to be cleared are the tiny tip of the iceberg I suspect. It's not really surprising when you realize that most legal systems don't operate on the scientific method, but are derived from archaic penal codes which determined guilt or innocence mostly based on personal bias, long before science itself was even invented.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #17  Postby Paul » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:In her lecture, Dr. Goodyear-Smith did mention that the child affected was examined by a doctor and no physical evidence of sexual activity was found.   The child apparently denied emphatically that anyone had sexually molested her.   I do not know her age - just that she was pre-pubescent.

Did they rule out Oral Sex. We don't know.

Perhaps Paul can explain the histories of early 20th Century orphanages in which a child was admitted with gonorrhea and the disease rapidly spread throughout all the orphans.  Easy to explain with sharing bathwater and sharing towels.   Hard to explain by child rape, when the disease was not there earlier and suddently spread to all children, after one infected child was admitted.

You want me to explain the histories of early 20th Century   which the premisses are logically unrelated to the conclusion. Your creating a Red Herring Strawman  fallacy.  Your asking me to explain something that happened in the early 20th Century only amounts to ad homen. All Im saying is Scientific evidence indicates.  You can't catch gonorrhea from kissing, hugging, sharing baths, towels, cups, plates or cutlery, or from toilet seats or swimming pools.


A
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #18  Postby brauneyz » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:36 pm

Paul59 wrote:You want me to explain the histories of early 20th Century   which the premisses are logically unrelated to the conclusion. Your creating a Red Herring Strawman  fallacy.  Your asking me to explain something that happened in the early 20th Century only amounts to ad homen. All Im saying is Scientific evidence indicates.  You can't catch gonorrhea from kissing, hugging, sharing baths, towels, cups, plates or cutlery, or from toilet seats or swimming pools.


A

How exactly is asking you to explain a 20th century occurrence ad hominem?  That's hardly a personal attack, no name-calling, nothing.  And yes, there is evidence that gonorrhea can be transmitted by kissing, baths, towel sharing, etc. per your own quote:

The medical literature records over 40 epidemics involving about 2000 children in Europe and the United States. Communal baths, towels or fabric, rectal thermometers and caregivers hands were identified as means of transmission.


So, now you are refuting your own citations?   :?
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #19  Postby Paul » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:39 am

brauneyz wrote:
Paul59 wrote:You want me to explain the histories of early 20th Century   which the premisses are logically unrelated to the conclusion. Your creating a Red Herring Strawman  fallacy.  Your asking me to explain something that happened in the early 20th Century only amounts to ad homen. All Im saying is Scientific evidence indicates.  You can't catch gonorrhea from kissing, hugging, sharing baths, towels, cups, plates or cutlery, or from toilet seats or swimming pools.

How exactly is asking you to explain a 20th century occurrence ad hominem?  That's hardly a personal attack, no name-calling, nothing.  And yes, there is evidence that gonorrhea can be transmitted by kissing, baths, towel sharing, etc.[i] per your own

I was asked to explain something  based on , my position or argument, it is usually easier more satisfying to those who divide the world into two classes of people—those who agree with them  and those who disagree with them and are therefore wrong.
quote]
The medical literature records over 40 epidemics involving about 2000 children in Europe and the United States. Communal baths, towels or fabric, rectal thermometers and caregivers hands were identified as means of transmission.

Link me to the medical records that recorded the claim. Give me one childs name that contracted the disease by a caretaker, Name the caretaker that inflicted the disease .
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #20  Postby brauneyz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:51 am

OMG, dude, it was your reference!   :roll:  

You posted yesterday that you had to join something to obtain the article but now can't link it, then proceeded to copy and paste it here (Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine).  Scroll up.

Would you like to restate your position?  :?:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #21  Postby Martin Brock » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:35 am

brauneyz wrote:
Martin Brock wrote:I suppose it's possible, but what's the point?


Excuse me?  I'm assuming this child was promptly removed from the household by Family Services based on this finding.  If the finding turns out to be factually incorrect and the girl was not molested, I would think that is a rather large point.


Attempt at humor obviously missed the mark here.

Gonorrhea without sex.  I suppose it's possible, but why would I want gonorrhea without the sex?
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #22  Postby brauneyz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:11 am

Martin Brock wrote:Attempt at humor obviously missed the mark here.

Gonorrhea without sex.  I suppose it's possible, but why would I want gonorrhea without the sex?

My bad.   :(

But the real question is whether you would still want the sex even if it came with the clap?  :mrgreen:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #23  Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:25 pm

This is easily testable. Any undergrad biology student at a well-equipped university can do it.

If you're a biology student looking for a project, I'll give you the run-down.

Here's the run-down: If you have to ask me how, I'll tell you you're too stupid to be a biologist.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #24  Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:19 pm

To MM
I must be stupid.   Given the proviso that the experiment must be ethical, and it is unethical to deliberately infect a human with a nasty disease, then please explain the experiment you have in mind.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #25  Postby brauneyz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:30 pm

Lance,  the joke may be on you this time.  (I'm getting the hang of MM's sense of humor now.)  I think he was suggesting that horny students would engage in unprotected sex, for, well, just for the sex of it.   :lol:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #26  Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:13 pm

Ah, I see.   I had not grasped the fact that the experiment was about motive - whether horny students would engage in sex even if they knew it would give them the clap.  We all know the answer to that one.   ie.  They would not, but they are so damned horny that they convince themselves they are immune to it.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #27  Postby Paul » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:27 pm

THE QUEENCourt:Elias CJ, Blanchard and Anderson JJCounsel:G King for ApplicantA Markham for CrownJudgment:9 April 2008 JUDGMENT OF THE COURTThe application for leave to appeal is dismissed.REASONS[1]The applicant seeks leave to appeal, being out of time from a decision of theCourt of Appeal delivered on 28 November 2005 in respect of his conviction on onecount of sexual violation by rape.

The victim was the applicant’s three year olddaughter who lived with her mother during the week but stayed at the applicant’shome on weekends.[2]In the course of a weekend visit the child became infected, intra-vaginally,with gonorrhoea. The source of the infecting bacterium was, undoubtedly, the
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applicant. The child’s genitalia showed no evidence of penetration but the Crowncase depended, crucially, on the proposition that the bacterium was introduced intothe vagina by sexual penetration of the genitalia.[3]Two experts on the issue were called by the Crown. One is a paediatricianwith expertise in child abuse; the other is a specialist venereologist. Their evidencewas to the effect that there must have been direct contact between at least the tip ofthe applicant’s penis and the entrance to the child’s vagina, inside the labia minora.That of course would amount to penetration for the purposes of the offence.[4]The applicant had told the Police that his daughter slept in his bed but withboth him and her fully clothed; that they shared a bath but that he had not touchedher genitalia with his hands; that he used a bar of soap to wash her and she used herown separate towel. Crucial to the applicant’s defence was acceptance by the jury ofa reasonable possibility that the infection could have been transmitted non-sexually.His counsel did not lead expert evidence but did cross-examine about non-sexualtransmission of the bacterium via bathwater or inanimate objects, relying on aselection of medical writings. The jury must have been satisfied that in all thecircumstances there was no reasonable possibility that the child contracted thedisease from a non-sexual transmission of the bacterium.[5]The leave application to this Court is founded on a recent article published inthe Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine during 2007, some years after theapplicant’s trial, by Dr Felicity Goodyear-Smith, an Associate Professor in theFaculty of Medical and Health Science at the University of Auckland. Her thesis isthat although international consensus guidelines state that gonorrhoea in pre-pubertalchildren is always, or nearly always, sexually transmitted, a systematic review of theliterature does not concur with that. It is submitted on behalf of the applicant thatDr Goodyear-Smith’s article is fresh evidence indicating that a miscarriage of justicehas or may have occurred, warranting a further appeal to this Court; but we are notpersuaded that leave should be granted.[6]A reading of the article shows that its scope is too general to be of assistancein this case. The authority of the article seems very questionable, in any event,
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having regard to writing criticising it, exhibited by the Crown. Further, it examinesliterature, all of which was in existence at the time of the applicant’s trial, some of itfor decades and up to more than a century. In short, the article is neither new norcogent.[7]The application for leave to appeal is accordingly dismissed.Solicitors: Crown Law Office, Wellington

http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/a-v ... leDecision -
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #28  Postby bigtim » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:15 am

Thanks Paul, that looks like the child was just prevented from seeing the father and not taken forcibly from a home she lived in.  Also, it appears that the age of the child doesn't indicate that she can "empatically deny" anything.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #29  Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:11 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:To MM
I must be stupid.   Given the proviso that the experiment must be ethical, and it is unethical to deliberately infect a human with a nasty disease, then please explain the experiment you have in mind.

Are you a biology student?

brauneyz wrote:Lance,  the joke may be on you this time.  (I'm getting the hang of MM's sense of humor now.)  I think he was suggesting that horny students would engage in unprotected sex, for, well, just for the sex of it.   :lol:

I was thinking that while I wrote... Am I that transparent? :D

Actually, all you'd have to do is some serial dilutions, inoculate some water baths at various temperatures and durations, take some samples, apply to agar and incubate at 37C. Then shove the whole lot in an autoclave, wipe the bench with 17% ethanol solution and wash your hands.

It's micro biology 101.

All we have to do is demonstrate that the bacteria can survive in a bath.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #30  Postby brauneyz » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:37 am

Major Malfunction wrote:I was thinking that while I wrote... Am I that transparent? :D

Well, you weren't the first few dozen go rounds, but that was when I was young and naive.  I've aged considerably since debating with you.   :lol:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #31  Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:00 am

That is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. Thankyou, brauneyz.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #32  Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:30 am

BTW: I wash my daughters' genitals with my bare hands and they often sleep with me nekkid.

It's a willie. Daddies have willies. Little girls have flossies. No, not hairy ones. Only Big Mummies have hairy ones.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #33  Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:18 am

Paul
Your case history is merely reiterating what I have already said.   That is : medical 'experts' and legal counsel regard gonorrhea in prepubescent children as proof positive of sexual molestation.   Simply restating that in a case history does not change the debate.

The references I have already posted show clearly that the bacterium can survive for some hours outside the human body.  Historical references suggest that the disease can be passed on by sharing towels or bath water.

We also know that bacterial conjunctivitis can occur by a person with genital gonorrhea touching their eyes after touching their genitals.   Thus, one form of non sexual transmission is proved.   With the bacteria surviving outside the body for as long as the pus is not dried up, it is reasonable to suspect that non sexual transmission can occur.  Sharing towels or bathwater seems totally likely to cause this.
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #34  Postby Paul » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:33 pm

Lance, your first sentence of the original post.
I
I attended an interesting lecture recently, by a medical researcher. She had been asked by a defense lawyer to see if gonorrhea could be contracted without sex.

We now know she is a Medical Forensic Doctor with excellent qualifications and has worked with many legal agencies assisting on investigations on a variety of sexualy  related cases. She is not a fruit cake as I claimed, nor is she a quack, shame on me for my lack of the information making a bold statement. And you for describing her as a medical researcher.

•Because of her qualifications I did accept the possibility that gonorrhea may be transmitted with out sexual contact. I accepted it but did not believe it. I based my belief  on the information and rumors. I know about the HIV virus and aids. Remember these rumors, all false. Drinking the same water or sharing and eating the same foods, sitting next to the diagnosed person. breathing through the air ,sharing pens and pencils sitting on the same toilet as someone who has AIDS ,getting bit by an insect ,swimming in the same pool.
•        
So now we have a discussion that concerns a claim by a person of authority. I adamantly agree she qualifies as an authority. She is attributed to an honored profession and it must be true. But authorities can be wrong, both in their own field and in other fields; so referencing authority does not automatically imply truth.
•         We can either accept or interpret the following information .

   From the NZ Law archives
Dr Goodyear-Smith’s evidence should be placed in a proper scientific context. Firstly, her “systematic review” is not, in fact, what it claims to be. The term has a very precise meaning in evidence-based medicine, where a series of systematic steps have been developed to minimize  bias. None of these processes have been followed by Dr Goodyear-Smith.
Papers cited by Dr Goodyear-Smith. Consequently, there are many other bacteria which may have been responsible for the outbreaks described in institutions, hospitals, and children’s homes.
Dr Goodyear-Smith has provided no evidence which would make it easier, on the basis of sound science, to diagnose non-sexual transmission in a pre-pubertal child. There is no new “dialogue” within the scientific community on this issue because Dr Goodyear-Smith has provided no reliable data on which such a dialogue could be based.


A detailed finding by the NZ Lawyer.
http://www.newzealandlawyer.co.nz/Archi ... fault.aspx
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #35  Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:53 pm

Paul
Would you accept that the issue is in doubt?   Good experimental evidence shows that Neissaria can survive for hours outside the human body, and the cases that the good doctor quoted indicate that transmission without sex can occur.  'Proof' is rather more difficult, unless we carry out unethical experiments and try to infect healthy people using towels/bathwater etc.   Would you agree, though, that Dr. Goodyear-Smith has raised a valid concern and a valid doubt?
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #36  Postby Flash » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:16 am

Surely, if what Lance is saying is true and the organism can survive outside the human body for hours then it probably can infect someone else via the toilet paper for example.
In any case, the continuation of the experiment would not be ethical and consequently the jury is still out and the legitimate doubt in. Lance wins. :mrgreen:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #37  Postby brauneyz » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:31 am

Couldn't we continue this experiment on mice or something?  Please don't sic PETA on me if I promise to give all the little critters shots with penicillin after we get some answers and put this to bed.   :)

Actually, I just had a thought that will probably enrage some but here goes.  Since treatment for the clap exists and the disease is not fatal, why couldn't ethical trials be run on willing participants, informed consent and with treatment as part of the service?  (Please spare me the Tuskeegee analogy as I am not suggesting anything like that.)

OK, let her rip...   :sr:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #38  Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:55 am

brauneyz
Since this is about sexual molestation, and the victims are normally female, we need a female volunteer.   What's that you say?

For such an experiment, we would need to ensure that the strain of gonorrhea bacteria we used are definitely not antibiotic resistant.   With that proviso, we could probably do it with suitable volunteers.   Brauneyz??
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #39  Postby brauneyz » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:06 am

Lance, we are now just talking about an experiment re: transmission of a curable condition to well-informed consenting participants with guarantee of treatment. Not anything resembling molestation.  I have no interest in participating, but thank you for your offer.

Am I to assume you would take that offer off the table to other subjects who might be willing?  And if so, how does this differ significantly from many other experimental trials being conducted every day?

I guess the mice are out too?   :lol:
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Re: Gonorrhea without sex.

Post #40  Postby Paul » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:15 pm

Lance Kennedy"]Paul
Would you accept that the issue is in doubt?

Dr Goodyear-Smith has provided no evidence based on sound science. The only issue I can doubt is the Methodology  analysis of the principles of methods used by Dr. Smith.
 
Good experimental evidence shows that Neissaria can survive for hours outside the human body,

Fact that an organism can be demonstrated to survive on inanimate objects does not answer the question as to whether it will infect and cause disease in someone who comes into contact with that object.
and the cases that the good doctor quoted indicate that transmission without sex can occur.

Dr. Smith referenced and used old literature written in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. these papers were published before reliable diagnostic tests for Neisseria gonorrhoeae became available.
'Proof' is rather more difficult, unless we carry out unethical experiments and try to infect healthy people using towels/bathwater etc.

   Methodology refers to more than a simple set of methods and many  comparative studies of different approaches
Would you agree, though, that Dr. Goodyear-Smith has raised a valid concern and a valid doubt?

A concern yes. If you are in doubt that the information provided by The Cochrane Collaboration systematic reviews of all relevant randomized controlled trials of health care. I suggest you read the complete article again provided by the NZ Lawyer. It clearly proves Dr. Smith used a review” that is not, in fact, what it claims to be. Smith referenced and used old literature written in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. these papers were published before reliable diagnostic tests for Neisseria gonorrhoeae became available.
I think we have beat this old dog to death.
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