Lester Markel did nothing wrong

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Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:45 am

Lester Markel was one of the greatest newspaper men in the history of the United States, but Holocaust Controversies have falsely implicated him as being the person ultimately responsible for doctoring Auschwitz survivor Simon Toncman out of the famous Buchenwald photograph when they declared, without offering a shred of tangible evidence, that the photograph was manipulated by his newspaper.

HC need to withdraw this slanderous accusation and apologise to him and the 1945 team of the Sunday Dept. of the NYT.

"Information is the communication of facts and opinions in an effort to enlighten.
Propaganda is the communication of facts (or non facts) and opinions in an effort to influence."

Lester Markel, 1894 — 1977
click image to enlarge:
Image
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
- Solomon Surowitz, Assistant Prosecutor at the 1947 Buchenwald trial.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:03 am

The quote in the OP comes from an article Markel wrote for a Counsel on Foreign Relations publication from 1949, here's some more of it:

Against the word propaganda there is often put the word information, as if it were the direct opposite. The difference is not always clear cut and simple; it might be put, broadly, this way

Information is the communication of facts and opinions in an effort to enlighten.
Propaganda is the communication of facts (or non facts) and opinions in an effort to influence.

Information, presumably, is calm, coldly logical, unemotional; propaganda is turbulent, hotly persuasive, supercharged with emotion. But the distinction is not that easy. On the one hand, propaganda may be the utterly calm presentation of lies. On the other hand, facts set down coolly and objectively often have a greater influence than flaming, unfactual words. Moreover, the selection of certain facts as against others may cause a greater reaction than the most resounding sequence of sentences. Yet, even though at times the line between propaganda and information is only dimly seen, there is a basic difference a difference that is especially important when we attempt to determine the approach and the method to be used in dealing with public opinion.

In the light of the preceding discussion, our two tasks (in the areas of opinion at home and opinion abroad) might be defined in this way The domestic task is basically to give the American people the facts and reasons behind our foreign policy so that they will understand it and, presumably, support it. This, because it is an effort to enlighten, is an information job. The foreign task is basically to make certain that we are understood by other peoples, that our purposes and programs are clearly set out so that our own cause may be furthered abroad. This, because it is an attempt to convince, is a propaganda job.
- "Opinion—A Neglected Instrument" by Lester Markel,
cf. L. Markel et al., Public Opinion and Foreign Policy, NYC: Harper & Bros., 1949, pp.16-17.



Markel would have eaten Romanov for breakfast if he was around to hear what HC was claiming about his paper.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:03 am

Further biographical details on HC's main suspect from Markel's entry in a 1999 book about Pulitzer Prize winners.

Romanov's probably destroyed any chance HC ever had of winning a PP, or even a UK Blog Award, with his blunder post framing Markel et al. as the guilty party.

Image



Markel's TV show the book mentions was nominated for an Emmy award in 1966, "Achievements in Educational Television"
http://www.emmys.com/shows/news-perspective
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:19 pm

The "Justice for Lester Markel" campaign maybe just days old but pundits are predicting heads will roll at HC, who've been labelled the *new West Midlands Serious Crime Squad*
[explanation for non-Brits/Irish]

Even musicians have come out in support of Lester Markel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAKxn9LEuOI
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:32 pm

I say #{!#%@}. You have not provided any evidence for his innocence.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:15 pm

BRoI wrote:doctoring Auschwitz survivor Simon Toncman out of the famous Buchenwald photograph

"Doctoring"? A naked man was edited out of a photograph apparently due to someone's recognition of the social convention on nudity.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:45 pm

LOL. As I said, there's something deeply wrong with this guy. This whole thread supports the diagnosis.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:04 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:LOL. As I said, there's something deeply wrong with this guy. This whole thread supports the diagnosis.


What diagnosis, old bean? "Pathological liar"?

Honestly, this dude is nothing other than a facking douchebag.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:44 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:LOL. As I said, there's something deeply wrong with this guy. This whole thread supports the diagnosis.


What diagnosis, old bean? "Pathological liar"?

Honestly, this dude is nothing other than a facking douchebag.


He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:29 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:LOL. As I said, there's something deeply wrong with this guy. This whole thread supports the diagnosis.


What diagnosis, old bean? "Pathological liar"?

Honestly, this dude is nothing other than a facking douchebag.


He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

than
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Aaron Richards » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:32 am

Let us not give BroI satisfaction by being reduced to ad hominems. I would first like to ask BRoI how this evidence we are supposed to present to him should look like. Someone asking for evidence should also have in mind what it is supposed to look like. A leaked "behind the scenes" video? An interview with an old geezer who admitted "oh yeah I was part of that decency division responsible for editing out Simon Toncman and many other people in their birthday suits over the years?"

Fact is, unless BRoI can provide evidence that the image in that article was based on an original print tucked somewhere in an archive (which doesn't feature Simon Toncman but a strangely darkened area instead, as compared to the rest of the image's lighting), and as long as he cannot rationally explain the missing bedpost base in said image, and as long as he cannot provide the original (or even copy, whatever!) image from which Simon Toncman, in that pose, was cropped out of, to be pasted into this famous one, I'd say the burden of proof lies on him. After all, HE was the one who came with the allegation that the "most famous holocaust photo" is a fraud, and his evidence only went so far as a physical copy of that newspaper. Not conclusive.

Honestly, the best way to prove "the most famous holocaust photo" is a hoax is by finding the alleged duplicate with a different background which features Toncman in that same pose, perhaps next to other standing inmates. Too bad revisionists always end up being laughed out of the room.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:55 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Sergey_Romanov wrote:LOL. As I said, there's something deeply wrong with this guy. This whole thread supports the diagnosis.


What diagnosis, old bean? "Pathological liar"?

Honestly, this dude is nothing other than a facking douchebag.


He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

Too much time spent wallowing in the filth at CrapbookPages. Is that dried up, miserable old hag still alive?

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:28 am

Gord wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

than

:lol: He always reminds me of this scene from A Fish Called Wanda when he posts these declarations about him being more intelligence than I am.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:49 am

Gord wrote:
BRoI wrote:doctoring Auschwitz survivor Simon Toncman out of the famous Buchenwald photograph

"Doctoring"? A naked man was edited out of a photograph [...]

Yes, "doctoring"; it would have necessitated far more than a little editing. Please click the image to enlarge it and you shall become better informed:

Image


Gord wrote: [...] apparently due to someone's recognition of the social convention on nudity

We know who was working in the Sunday Department of the NYT in May 1945, so there's no need for abstract terms like "someone".

[The New York Times] Sunday Department

LESTER MARKEL. Editor
W. B. HAYWARD, Assistant Editor
E. FRANCIS BROWN, Assistant Editor
DANIEL SCHWARZ, Assistant Editor
DIANA RICE, Resort Editor
H. I. BROCK, Writer
L. H. ROBBINS, Writer
P. W. WILSON, Writer
EDITH EFRON, Writer
CHARLES B. PALMER, Writer
JOHN DESMOND, Rewrite
ALLAN TAYLOR, Rewrite
SEYMOUR NAGAN, Rewrite
GERTUDE SAMUELS, Rewrite
JANE KRIEGER, Rewrite
VICTOR W. TALLEY, Picture Editor
FLORETTE ROBINSON, Asst. Pict. Ed.
EMMA LITTLE, Asst. Pict. Ed.
- The Working Press of New York City, New York: Tom Farrell, 1945, p.38.

This gentlemen is another implicated in Romanov's conspiracy theory.

Victor W. Talley, Sunday Department Picture Editor.

Image

Obituary in the NYT 18 February 1973

Talley's assistant picture editors in the Sunday Department were Florette Robinson and Emma Little.


Daniel Schwarz, assistant editor of the Sunday NYT [worked for the paper from 1929 - 1973]:
NYT obituary for Schwarz wrote:In February 1939, he was put in charge of magazine layout, and six months later became Sunday picture editor. Within three months, he was named an assistant to Mr. Markel.


The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote:Image

The final Assistant Editor at the Sunday Times to be addressed is Walter Brownell Hayward [1878-1957], who worked for the paper between 1915-1917 and 1924 to 1948.

Judging by his obituary [NYT 17.04.57], Hayward appears to have been the news editor when the alleged photo doctoring occurred.


Here, pictured in 1942, is one of Romanov's suspects for having done the actual doctoring; it is, almost certainly, Victor W. Talley, Sunday Department Picture Editor.

Image

Art department of the New York Times newspaper. Photo retoucher touching up a fashion photograph for Sunday paper

http://flashbak.com/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-new-york-times-september-10-1942-379759/
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:55 am

Aaron Richards wrote:Let us not give BroI satisfaction by being reduced to ad hominems.

Aside from projection, it's all they have, poor dears.

Aaron Richards wrote:I would first like to ask BRoI how this evidence we are supposed to present to him should look like. Someone asking for evidence should also have in mind what it is supposed to look like.

Why not start by finding evidence of the NYT manually doctoring any photo to this extent EVER, and I don't mean a little airbrushing for fashion photos or the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in his backyard, or one a freelance photographer doctored on a COMPUTER in the modern era. You can't seriously suggest that this was the only ever photo the NYT doctored to this extent.

Here, incidentally, is a photo doctored by the U.S. Army Signal Corps, proving that they were not unaccustomed to drastic photographic manipulation; this is a composite of at least two different photos, just like the B. one:

Image


Aaron Richards wrote:A leaked "behind the scenes" video? An interview with an old geezer who admitted "oh yeah I was part of that decency division responsible for editing out Simon Toncman and many other people in their birthday suits over the years?"

Here are the only three people who could have done the actual doctoring:

- Victor W. Talley, Sunday Dept. Pict. Ed. [died Feb. 1973]
- Florette Robinson, Sunday Dept. Asst. Pict. Ed.
- Emma Little, Sunday Dept. Asst. Pict. Ed.

Any evidence that they ever docotored ANY photo to the extent you claim they doctored the B. photo would be a great start. Good luck. ;)


Fact is, unless BRoI can provide evidence that the image in that article was based on an original print tucked somewhere in an archive

- The Toncman-less version is in the NYT archive, they have refused to give me a print because the copyright to that version is held by Associated Press [unlike the other versions that are credited to the Signal Corps]
- The Associated Press claims only to have Toncman-present version in their archive
- The NYT and AP are private archives, I can't get access to them
- I live in the UK, I hope to get to the NARA soon to look at some particular files of the OMGUS. I usually pay a researcher-for-hire to get me NARA stuff, but I need to do this myself as it'll more likely be a search for clues; I don't expect they were daft enough to leave the original negatives in their records


(which doesn't feature Simon Toncman but a strangely darkened area instead, as compared to the rest of the image's lighting),

Do you expect bunks 20ft-40ft from the light[s]/camera flash to be as brightly lit as the bunks just 5-20ft away? Were you home-schooled?


and as long as he cannot rationally explain the missing bedpost base in said image,

Hooray; we have another one joining Romanov in using Eric Hunt's "missing post foot" theory; another one who knows absolutely nothing about the printing process, or how photos were put into newspapers, or how photos were transferred via wire, or the deterioration of newspapers over time, but is prepared to go on record claiming there's something missing in the photo in a 72yr old magazine that they've only seen in my photos. You should be embarrassed for posting that nonsense considering your level of ignorance on these topics.

Btw, do you suspect the post-foot isn't visible in the print in the NYT archive either? i.e the copy neither you, Romanov, or any other NYT CT realised even existed, let alone attempted to obtain a copy. :roll:

Here's a photo of another page in the magazine in both copies I possess. If some bozo was only shown the copy on the left, and knew nothing about the deterioration of paper and how similar shades of ink blend, they might claim the woman has no right foot. Whereas we can see her right foot is still visible in the same picture in a different copy of this old magazine.

Image


and as long as he cannot provide the original (or even copy, whatever!) image from which Simon Toncman, in that pose, was cropped out of, to be pasted into this famous one, I'd say the burden of proof lies on him. [...] Honestly, the best way to prove "the most famous holocaust photo" is a hoax is by finding the alleged duplicate with a different background which features Toncman in that same pose, perhaps next to other standing inmates.

Finding that would be great and my effort to do so continue. But you're committing a fallacy demanding that until it is produced you have no obligation to provide evidence to support your theory that the NYT Sunday Dept. edited the photo.


After all, HE was the one who came with the allegation that the "most famous holocaust photo" is a fraud, and his evidence only went so far as a physical copy of that newspaper. Not conclusive.

And the evidence presented to prove your theory that Lester Markel's SNYT doctored the photo has been a few internet links. Do you think that's conclusive?


Too bad revisionists always end up being laughed out of the room.

Well, presently I'm laughing at your post exposing your ignorance of wirephotos, hotmetal and rotogravure printing, the deterioration newspaper paper, the history of this photo in the press and government propaganda, and the fallacious *logic* you believe supports an excuse for not providing evidence to support the conspiracy theory about Pultizer Prize winner Lester Markel.

#JUSTICE4LESTERMARKEL
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:46 am

BRoI wrote:The "Justice for Lester Markel" campaign maybe just days old but pundits are predicting heads will roll at HC, who've been labelled the *new West Midlands Serious Crime Squad*
[explanation for non-Brits/Irish]

Even musicians have come out in support of Lester Markel.


So, you've started a campaign. And you made a video.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:12 am

Gord wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

than

:lol: He always reminds me of this scene from A Fish Called Wanda when he posts these declarations about him being more intelligence than I am.



PS: I won't be surprised if he says he put this mistake in his sentence on purpose, to prove something something. That's the same way he dealt with his debunked Mermelstein argument: outright lied about having never taken it seriously.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:20 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:So, you've started a campaign. And you made a video.

I'm expecting Romanov to add my text about them to his quote-stack that he keeps spamming, claiming it *proves* I am a "pathological liar", although his English isn't good enough for him to articulate how I lied.

:lol:
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:29 am

Notably the Rabbit simply meta-lies about me "not articulating" something something, since the claim, the fully articulated refutation and the evidence are all here.

The pathological, semi-literate liar just can't stop lying.

As I wrote, something very deeply wrong with this individual.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:44 am

Nice, Kleon, thanking Romanov for another ad hom. about me and once again spamming his link.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:48 am

Note how the pathological liar does not dare to actually address the evidence.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:17 pm

MM is my main suspect for doctoring the version used on the cover of all three editions [1979, 1981, 1993] of his self-published memoirs.

BRoI wrote:MM—who was savvy customer in his day—opted to use a Toncman-crudely-deleted version on his book because he believed it was closer to the original photo. He must have known of the NYTM version, maybe others we are unaware of.

Romanov, on the other hand, believes the MM version has no connection whatsoever to the NYTM version.

He keeps spamming a link to a list of quotes in which I ridicule this theory. How his quote-stack is suppose to prove I'm a "pathological liar" hasn't been made clear as of yet.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:02 pm

Image

Internet experts have suggested that Lester Markel may only have been picked out for attack by HC due to the fact he resembled the Italian literature critic Carlos the Mattogno, who HC are known to despise for his unflattering review of their first book [Vanity Publishing, 2011]. HC are yet to collectively response to his piece. It's understood that none of them have managed to read all 6 million pages of it.

#JUSTICE4LESTERMARKEL
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:43 pm

BRoI wrote:Nice, Kleon, thanking Romanov for another ad hom. about me and once again spamming his link.


You waste people's time over nothing, is my opinion.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:56 pm

Image

News has come through to the Justice for Lester Markel campaign HQ that HC may be attacking the reputation of Markel due to jealously of his friendship with American sexpot Marilyn Monroe [pictured together in the NYT Picture Library in 1959].

Marilyn Monroe, 29 March 1960 wrote:Lester Dear, Here I am still in bed. I've been lying here—thinking even of you. I’ll bet you don’t know how
fond I am of you—you’re one of those that one could say anything one meant or wanted to.
[...]

[then, referring to her visit to a doctor whose surgery was in the same Manhattan apartment block as Markel's home] I didn't want you to get a glimpse of me until I was wearing my Somali leopard coat. I want you to think of me as a predatory animal.
Last edited by BRoI on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:03 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:You waste people's time over nothing, is my opinion.

I know, what am I like! There are so many important threads in this subforum, all of them chocka with posts revealing recently discovered archival material for the first time. :roll:
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:01 pm

BRoI wrote:
Gord wrote:
BRoI wrote:doctoring Auschwitz survivor Simon Toncman out of the famous Buchenwald photograph

"Doctoring"? A naked man was edited out of a photograph [...]

Yes, "doctoring"; it would have necessitated far more than a little editing.

Editing is editing, it doesn't matter how much work you put into it. Star Wars took a lot of work but it was still edited, it wasn't doctored.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Gord wrote:
BRoI wrote:Yes, "doctoring"; it would have necessitated far more than a little editing.

Editing is editing, it doesn't matter how much work you put into it. Star Wars took a lot of work but it was still edited, it wasn't doctored.

Star Wars is a science-fiction movie [!]; the Toncman-absent version of the Buchenwald photo was passed off as evidence of nazi brutality in the NYTM article it appears in.

Just before our troops reached Buchenwald early in April it had a prison population of 82,000 and five or six thousand men a month had been dying either of starvation or murder. They were packed in flimsy wooden barracks, which must have been piteously cold in winter, on the sides of a great paved square like a parade ground where prisoners sometimes were assembled by force to witness the group hangings with which the Germans wished to impress them. Each barrack was 35 meters long and 9 wide and one of them I visited had at one time housed 1,043 prisoners.

The prisoners slept on four tiers of deep shelves which ranged along the side walls. These were divided into cubicles about 6 feet wide and 30 Winches high. In each of these ten to twelve men slept packed like sardines and required to be naked. Half of them lay with their heads to the central corridor and the other half with their heads to the wall, their bodies dove-tailing. Many prisoners were still there when I entered it the week after our troops had liberated the camp and they were still dying. As I stepped inside, one of the abler-bodied prisoners opened a closet just inside the door. There a score of nearly naked, horribly emaciated bodies were piled. "Last night's crop," said the prisoner. "Tomorrow it will be the same."

THEN I walked along the corridor in a scene like a nightmare or like the canvas of a decadent painter. There were men too ill and weak to work any more and they had been put here to die. Many were in the last stages of starvation. All, even those able to walk about, were unbelievably emaciated, their arms and legs between the joints so withered I almost could have encircled them with the fingers of one hand. Often their parched skin was pitted with great sores. Prisoners lying or crouching on their shelves seemed hardly human and some had lost their minds. Some stared at me with piercing eyes from shrunken faces. Some looked idiotically ahead, their eyes seeing nothing, their mouths gaping. Some noticed me and moved what little clothing they wore to show their grotesque malformations and a few smiled sardonically.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/teachers/archival/19450506notforget.pdf


You're in last chance saloon if you're reduced to quibbling semantics, but are you seriously going to argue that doctoring/doctored/doctor are NOT well established terms for the manipulation of photographs that are passed off as entirely authentic?
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:08 pm

BRoI wrote:
Gord wrote:
BRoI wrote:Yes, "doctoring"; it would have necessitated far more than a little editing.

Editing is editing, it doesn't matter how much work you put into it. Star Wars took a lot of work but it was still edited, it wasn't doctored.

Star Wars is a science-fiction movie [!]; the Toncman-absent version of the Buchenwald photo was passed off as evidence of nazi brutality in the NYTM article it appears in.

Doesn't matter what they're used for. They're both examples of editing.

I thought that would be obvious, but I guess I didn't state it accurately enough.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:21 pm

It looks so much more brutal without the emaciated figure in it...
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:04 am

scrmbldggs wrote:It looks so much more brutal without the emaciated figure in it...

What about the version the artist Dee Clements found at the USHMM in the early '90s and copied in bronze. Or thought he copied, he can't really remember anymore.

Image
Image

Mel Mermelstein admitted the photo was staged:

Then on April 16th around noon time, a group of dignitaries appeared at my barracks. I was shocked to see so many civilians and soldiers around. I wondered what they had come for, and why they were looking at us with such curiosity. After all, it had been nearly a week since we were liberated. Didn't they know who we were? Then an order was given for us to file into the racks again. I couldn't understand that, but I wasn't about to disobey such an order. I rushed to the top of the rack, attempting to conceal myself from these people whom I knew nothing about. Then the flash of a light bulb went off and I quickly reacted by looking up to see what had taken place.

[p.223, 1993 edition]
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:11 am

Ha, that one seems to have gotten the perspective on the farthest end of the row of bunks right, unlike the edited one that appears to have messed that up when removing Toncman. But there seem to be too many bunks in the bronzes?


ETA: Image
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:20 am

:hmm: That smooth post also doesn't match the one he's leaning on.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:54 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Ha, that one seems to have gotten the perspective on the farthest end of the row of bunks right, unlike the edited one that appears to have messed that up when removing Toncman. But there seem to be too many bunks in the bronzes?

Okay, you're another *the Jew Lester Markel dun did it* conspiraloon.

#JUSTICE4LESTERMARKEL

No, the bunks are fine in Clements' bas-relief. We know how many bunks were in a barrack, they were numbered, and the numbers are visible in the photo[s]. I'll create a plan soon to prove it to you conspiracy guys who can't do research yourselves.

Incidentally, there's a chap dressed just like the seated man in Clements' piece in a Margaret Bourke-White photo taken at Buchenwald the previous day. Flat-cap, and trench-coat. Perhaps the coat was an SS or Wehrmacht one? I'll ask the uniform/insignia buffs on AHF.

Image
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:17 am

Dude, I don't care how many pictures were taken and if modesty caused some editing.

But look at the clearly visible end of the row of bunks and room (where the floor meets the wall behind Toncman) and you'll see it does not really align with the bronze art. There's only one more bunk, not three to four.
ImageImage

You'll also see that the detail in the third bottom bunk is no longer the same - it holds two men. For all we know that's Toncman back in his bunk.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:04 am

Also the guy who's supposed to be seated on the floor would actually be hovering an inch or two above the floor; the Y-branch of the post is mis-aligned; and most of the men in the bunks are inexactly the same positions as in the photograph, which means none of them moved a muscle between shots. But you don't expect exactness from an engraving.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:21 am

Agree. And sometimes one works from more than one image.

But there's a distinct difference between what seems to be a sharp as can be copy of the original photograph (zoom in, you can even see what looks like another inmate peeking out from under Toncman's right armpit) and the apparently altered image.
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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:00 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Gord wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

than

:lol: He always reminds me of this scene from A Fish Called Wanda when he posts these declarations about him being more intelligence than I am.



PS: I won't be surprised if he says he put this mistake in his sentence on purpose, to prove something something. That's the same way he dealt with his debunked Mermelstein argument: outright lied about having never taken it seriously.


This whole meltdown by him is nuts. I'm calling it Total Eclipse of The {!#%@}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:02 am

BRoI wrote:
Gord wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:He is a nitpicker with massive insecurity issues. He literally bitches about typos if he can't find anything wrong with your argument. I suspect he did poorly in school and has a grudge against people who are demonstrably smarter then him, like us.

than

:lol: He always reminds me of this scene from A Fish Called Wanda when he posts these declarations about him being more intelligence than I am.


Well I'm not in the business of lying outrageously and then blaming it on a book. That is an utterly infantile display of cowardice.

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Re: Lester Markel did nothing wrong

Postby BRoI » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:20 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Dude, I don't care how many pictures were taken and if modesty caused some editing.

There is no evidence that modesty caused anything at the NYT. Whoever took Toncman's picture asked him to cover his junk with his shirt though.


But look at the clearly visible end of the row of bunks and room (where the floor meets the wall behind Toncman) and you'll see it does not really align with the bronze art. There's only one more bunk, not three to four.

The art work aside for the moment; it is not a wall—because clearly the ceiling goes on much farther—it is a chimney, like the one seen in this photo of the US Congressmen at Buchenwald on the 25/26 April [I don't know presently whether this was the same barrack, but it was same type of barrack: a prefabricated horse stable barrack, of which there were only a few at Buchenwald].

Image


scrmbldggs wrote:You'll also see that the detail in the third bottom bunk is no longer the same - it holds two men. For all we know that's Toncman back in his bunk.

lol, I spotted that extra guy years ago. Never considered it might be Toncman.

It's a piece of art, and it's very impressive.

Clements created the scene in clay like this. He then would have made a mould of it, that he must have taken to a foundry to have liquid bronze poured in to create the two bas reliefs I posted above.

I don't know if you do much archive work, but most of them don't let you take pens in, stipulating that you use pencils. Clements would not have been permitted to rock into the USHMM archive with a shed load of clay and sit there making a sculpture.

Don't get hung up on tiny differences between his bronze castings and the photo, the only difference that's relevant is the fully-clothed guy who replaces Toncman.
Last edited by BRoI on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"... these witnesses would swear to anything if it gets the Germans killed."
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