Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby kennyc » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:......Image


Nice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:I would greatly appreciate that anyone who has participated in this thread, for whatever reason, watch the above video, and share your views on what she says.


Well Zuezzz, I did watch the last video you asked us to watch and I pointed out some errors. You didn't make any comment and simply posted another video. That's not really fair is it?


No that's not fair at all, I have no recollection of this incident, can you link me to it? This thread or another? I'll be more than happy to reply now.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:44 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:I would greatly appreciate that anyone who has participated in this thread, for whatever reason, watch the above video, and share your views on what she says.


Well Zuezzz, I did watch the last video you asked us to watch and I pointed out some errors. You didn't make any comment and simply posted another video. That's not really fair is it?


No that's not fair at all, I have no recollection of this incident, can you link me to it? This thread or another? I'll be more than happy to reply now.


I presume not then?

I guess since most skeptic forums are atheist predicated, and Mayer is one of the most prominent (open) atheists on American TV, people might enjoy this video. "Put LSD in kids haloween candy, it'd probably be the healthiest thing they've had all day"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB4dFaADJzI
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Sanatogen » Wed May 10, 2017 12:53 pm

[I]does not confirm your bias, you will find that it is a disabling of normal brain function, and not a profound, conscious awakening thing.[I]

A common part of the feedback from anecdotal evidence is that the ego is disabled. This may be the scary part for a majority of those who have tried this.

What Brain function are you referring to?

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 11, 2017 2:32 am

Sanatogen wrote:What Brain function are you referring to?

Sadly, Zeuzzz died in December 2016. He cannot answer your questions.

Zeuzzz was enthusiastic about alternative forms of evolution and consciousness, and posted about those topics here, but never had any coherent claims and never produced any evidence. He was a nice bloke, but he was permanently confused.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Dimebag » Fri May 12, 2017 11:05 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Sanatogen wrote:What Brain function are you referring to?

Sadly, Zeuzzz died in December 2016. He cannot answer your questions.

Zeuzzz was enthusiastic about alternative forms of evolution and consciousness, and posted about those topics here, but never had any coherent claims and never produced any evidence. He was a nice bloke, but he was permanently confused.

Damn, seemed like a nice guy. Farewell fellow ponderer...

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 14, 2017 4:04 am

Sanatogen wrote:[I]does not confirm your bias, ...

But It can fortify the over forties.

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Re: Skeptisism has become a cult against conscious experienc

Postby sandisk » Wed May 24, 2017 2:13 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, our experience of reality is actually virtual reality generated by our brains. "


Generated? :lol:
Stop watching science fiction, stop watching matrix or pseudo physicists (jews) promoting this garbage of reality and brain and "virtual" nonsense.
Reality is real, is utterly independent of us and it isn't any god damn generated by our brain, our brain is doing jack {!#%@}, we are just perceiving. brain generating reality only in matrix movies.

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Re: Skeptisism has become a cult against conscious experienc

Postby Dimebag » Wed May 24, 2017 8:04 pm

sandisk wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, our experience of reality is actually virtual reality generated by our brains. "


Generated? :lol:
Stop watching science fiction, stop watching matrix or pseudo physicists (jews) promoting this garbage of reality and brain and "virtual" nonsense.
Reality is real, is utterly independent of us and it isn't any god damn generated by our brain, our brain is doing jack {!#%@}, we are just perceiving. brain generating reality only in matrix movies.

Actually this is a fairly accurate statement Sandisk. The brain receives information from the senses to inform the perceptual mechanisms of what may be out there, but at the same time, the perceptual mechanisms themselves use a top down flow of information to feed back their own version of events to the basic sensory receptors and their basic feature recognition systems. So the flow of information is not only from the senses to the higher level perceptual centres, it also flows backward to update the lower level centres of the brains "best guess" about what the sensory information really is. Perception is like a constant hallucination.

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Re: Skeptisism has become a cult against conscious experienc

Postby Gord » Thu May 25, 2017 1:18 am

sandisk wrote:pseudo physicists (jews) promoting this garbage of reality and brain and "virtual" nonsense

:facepalm:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Skeptisism has become a cult against conscious experienc

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 25, 2017 2:10 am

sandisk wrote:Stop watching science fiction, stop watching matrix or pseudo physicists (jews) promoting this garbage of reality and brain and "virtual" nonsense.
You are anti Jewish.

The Skeptic Society Forum hosts the leading anti-holocaust denial debate forums. You are obviously the worst form of scum. You would be there, working hand in hand with the Nazis, stuffing innocent children into gas chambers

I strongly suggest you never post here again. Try Stormfront or some other neo-nazi forum.


sandisk wrote:All I read was a bunch of excuse for the contradiction that this leads to the fictional fairy tale of darwinism
You are also anti-science yet posting on a science based forum.

Just go away.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Pyrrho » Thu May 25, 2017 6:53 am

I have no idea what Jewish people have to do with any of this discussion, but I must caution sandisk about forum rules regarding defamation of ethnic groups.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby JO 753 » Fri May 26, 2017 4:05 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Sadly, Zeuzzz died in December 2016.

:(
Tell us about it.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri May 26, 2017 5:13 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:Sadly, Zeuzzz died in December 2016.

:(
Tell us about it.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=22001&p=557991#p557991
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Pyrrho » Fri May 26, 2017 10:12 pm

Wow, very sorry that happened, and very sorry that I didn't know about it at the time. I have locked the "Zeuzzz" user account.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri May 26, 2017 10:25 pm

"The requested user does not exist" - wow, reading that was very weird for the first time.
.

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Re: Skeptisism has become a cult against conscious experienc

Postby mirror93 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:32 am

Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, our experience of reality is actually virtual reality generated by our brains. That's a primary reason why we skeptics don't trust "conscious experience," because the mechanism of the brain can get things wrong. Doesn't mean that reality doesn't exist. Yeah, at some level it's all quantum fluctuation, apparently. Doesn't mean that reality doesn't exist. We can only experience reality at the level we can experience reality, and at this level, it hurts if I fall off a ladder, because of gravity and impact forces when my physical manifestation is stopped by the physical manifestation we call the ground. Its the way things work as far as we can tell and that's the way it seems to be.

Anyway, can't build bridges using metaphysics.

Obligatory Philip K. Dick quote: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."


it isnt any virtual reality, this isn't matrix.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Pyrrho » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:36 am

Agreed. What I meant was the visual representation of reality that our brains generate, which is not equivalent to VR goggles.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:15 pm

Just a couple of paragraphs on the Primacy of Consciousness:

The Scientific view of Consciousness is that it is some kind of byproduct of Neural Activity in the Brain. Most Scientists believe that Consciousness is not very important and some go so far as to say that it is just an Illusion with no real purpose. Philosophers have invented the Philosophical Zombie as a tool for thinking about Consciousness or the lack of Consciousness. The P-Zombie is supposed to live and interact with the World just like any one else except that it would not be Conscious.

But from the Inter Mind Model point of view the P-Zombie would be blind and would not be able to interact with the World. The Inter Mind and the Conscious Mind are further processing stages that are absolutely necessary for Sight. Neural Activity is not enough. All we know about Seeing is through Conscious experience. We experience the Conscious Light that's inside us. Take away the Conscious Light experience and what's left? Blind Neural Activity is all you have. You will not See anything. The Primacy of the Conscious Light experience for Sight is undeniable, and the same is true for every other Conscious experience that you have. You don't know anything about the Physical World except that which you obtain through your own internal Conscious experiences.

The Evolution of life on this Planet is probably directly driven by Conscious experience. Any organism that experiences Pleasure will seek out that Pleasure. Any organism that experiences Pain will try to avoid that Pain. Without the existence of these basic Conscious experiences there would be no motivation for any organism to react. There's nothing like a little Pain to motivate you to adjust what you are doing. This applies to simple organisms and to Humans. It would seem that Evolution is directly guided by Conscious experience.

Consciousness probably existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang. The Universe was probably created by Consciousness and for Consciousness. Our Scientists need a way to understand and study Consciousness. They have to stop hiding their inability to study Consciousness by trying to minimize its importance. The Primacy of Consciousness must be understood.

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Re: Skeptisism has become a cult against conscious experienc

Postby mirror93 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:24 pm

Dimebag wrote:
sandisk wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, our experience of reality is actually virtual reality generated by our brains. "


Generated? :lol:
Stop watching science fiction, stop watching matrix or pseudo physicists (jews) promoting this garbage of reality and brain and "virtual" nonsense.
Reality is real, is utterly independent of us and it isn't any god damn generated by our brain, our brain is doing jack {!#%@}, we are just perceiving. brain generating reality only in matrix movies.

Actually this is a fairly accurate statement Sandisk. The brain receives information from the senses to inform the perceptual mechanisms of what may be out there, but at the same time, the perceptual mechanisms themselves use a top down flow of information to feed back their own version of events to the basic sensory receptors and their basic feature recognition systems. So the flow of information is not only from the senses to the higher level perceptual centres, it also flows backward to update the lower level centres of the brains "best guess" about what the sensory information really is. Perception is like a constant hallucination.


I got what he meant by it, but it's not a constant hallucination either, you have to separate concepts of "hallucination" when referring to perceive objective external reality, otherwise they lose meaning and become meaningless. Yes, most of the time what we perceive is not matching with what is there, but I, particularly, know when this happens that it is not what is there

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:33 am

It all depends on what the definition of "is" is.
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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:22 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:... Consciousness probably existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang. The Universe was probably created by Consciousness and for Consciousness ...


Oh really? This is why I gave up on your Red thread, Steve. It's no more than wishful thinking. The Universe may be an expression of ethereal cheesemaking but it's probably not.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Poodle » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:24 pm

Double post - sorry.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:11 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:Consciousness probably existed prior to the Big Bang and might have even been the cause of the Big Bang.
Thanks Poodle. I missed this "gem" from Steve.

It simply confirms that Steve hasn't got a clue about.......well..... anything and has this bizarre religious view that human consciousness existed before humans even evolved, 13.8 billion years after the big bang.

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Re: Skeptics need to embrace conscious experience more

Postby mirror93 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:29 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Well now I've got your attention I should elaborate what I mean by this. I think this is more an endemic problem with many peoples warped perspective on certain scientific disciplines as they relate to the holistic picture of all disciplines as a whole, and people fervently seeking for truth in whatever discipline takes their fancy, whether it's biological materialism, neuroscience, genetics, or any other field that often denies the authenticity of conscious experience, by reducing them to material correlates. And in doing so people are placing far too much faith in the truth-fullness of these currently popular reductionist approaches. As I discussed in another thread I started reductionism simply does not work for biology, yet many of the disciples of science (not the scientists themselves often but the cultural stragglers who use it as a belief system) are still laboring under the notion that these step for step reductionist models are revealing something deeply profound about the nature of reality.

Well I have news for you. There is no reality. There are only people who know this, and people who don't know this and are therefore being manipulated by the people who do know this.

Even linear maths fails at this level in the face of the chaos theory and butterfly effects implicit in the system, which likely stems from quantum indeterminacy effects, but we wont go off on that tangent.

This was solidified in my mind with my banning from JREF forum, there are certain viewpoints there that are considered utter woo, and any mention of conscious experience being real was seen as nonsense. They were all seen as illusory, nonsense, reducible and not important. Literally they (as a collective) would deny that people have conscious experiences, the very notion that an idea someone has could be correct or worth considering, or an experience that someone has on a psychedelic drug is real to them, was seen as absurd. Well these things happen. Dreams are real experiences. They happen. Indigestion is a real subjective experience, we feel it, it happens. Psychedelic experiences, done by swapping out the normal brain chemicals running the system, are real experiences, they happen, people can remember them.

Now in the face of some of the older trains of thought there are some extremely promising fields that seem to be feeding back into the cognitive psychology and hard neuroscience, psychopharmacology and the study of altered states, that actually documents the subjective states and the effects they have on consciousness, seem to actually now be finally gaining traction in the scientific community in the face of the political pressure.

Frankly I look at the history psychedelic science I am horrified. It's not like these things have been studied in depth for hundreds of years, the indole hallucinogens, back when LSD was first discovered in 1948 they put it on the shelf for five years, then Hoffman tried it, but it didn't actually really make it into the journals until 1965. The original excitement in the psychology community when LSD was discovered was like the hysteria in the physics community when the atom was first smashed. People were reporting astonishing results for all matters in psychology, breakthroughs with chronic alcoholism without recidivism, spectacular results with psychopathies usually thought untreatable. Well DMT and psilocybin and related compounds were studied even less, we are talking maybe ten or so papers until the ENTIRE class of hallucinogens, or anything like them, was made absolute schedule I illegal in 1967, not even useable for scientific research with 'no clinical benefit'. A two year windows of opportunity. Then that was it.

I've started a few threads on this topic showing this position to be absurd. It's simply unlike the history any other scientific discipline. It's like people simply lost their nerve decades ago and in the face the political government pressure and scare tactics and literally were forced to stop all research.

I was in this same basket too for a while until for the first time in over fifty years studies into the effects of psilocybin were allowed, conducted mainly by Roland Fischer. That and I happened to try them to see what the fuss was all about. After that I could very clearly see the perspective of how they could act as a kind of evolutionary wedge and further catalyst to changing our past evolution. Not just mushrooms really but other substances, like DMT/ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc, could be equally good candidates, just mushrooms seem the most plausible for inclusion in a primates diet. DMT requires some type of cooking and preparation.

Selected references:

Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance (Psychopharmacology August 2006, Volume 187, Issue 3, pp 268-283)
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 006-0457-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mystical-type experiences occasioned by psilocybin mediate the attribution of personal meaning and spiritual significance 14 months later (J Psychopharmacol August 2008 vol. 22 no. 6 621-632)
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/22/6/621.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: immediate and persisting dose-related effects (Psychopharmacology, December 2011, Volume 218, Issue 4, pp 649-665)
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 011-2358-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mystical experiences occasioned by the hallucinogen psilocybin lead to increases in the personality domain of openness
J Psychopharmacol November 2011 vol. 25 no. 11 1453-1461
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/11/1453.short" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Press release:

In 2006, the United States government funded a randomized and double-blinded study by Johns Hopkins University, which studied the spiritual effects of psilocybin in particular. That is, they did not use mushrooms specifically (in fact, each individual mushroom piece can vary wildly in psilocybin and psilocin content[14]). The study involved 36 college-educated adults (average age of 46) who had never tried psilocybin nor had a history of drug use, and who had religious or spiritual interests. The participants were closely observed for eight-hour intervals in a laboratory while under the influence of psilocybin mushrooms[15].

One-third of the participants reported that the experience was the single most spiritually significant moment of their lives and more than two-thirds reported it was among the top five most spiritually significant experiences. Two months after the study, 79% of the participants reported increased well-being or satisfaction; friends, relatives, and associates confirmed this. They also reported anxiety and depression symptoms to be decreased or completely gone. Despite highly controlled conditions to minimize adverse effects, 22% of subjects (8 of 36) had notable experiences of fear, some with paranoia. The authors, however, reported that all these instances were "readily managed with reassurance."[15]

Roland Griffiths has conducted pioneering research at John Hopkins university showing that the correct dose of psilocybin mushrooms can cause mystical type experiences that have substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance [31] At 2 months, the volunteers rated the psilocybin experience as having substantial personal meaning and spiritual significance and attributed to the experience sustained positive changes in attitudes and behavior consistent with changes rated by community observers. These effects were still apparent even 14 months after taking the ingesting the psilocybin [32][33] Obviously for evolving apes a plant/fungi that produces such a drastic change that the effects are still felt 14 months after ingestion would have produced huge interest and effected their long term physiology. Other studies of his have also shown that these mystical experiences occasioned by the hallucinogen psilocybin lead to increases in the personality domain of openness [34], which would greatly effect the perspective of habit forming apes in prehistory.

As Medicine

There have been calls for medical investigation of the use of synthetic and mushroom-derived psilocybin for the development of improved treatments of various mental conditions, including chronic cluster headaches,[16] following numerous anecdotal reports of benefits. There are also several accounts of psilocybin mushrooms sending both obsessive-compulsive disorders ("OCD") and OCD-related clinical depression (both being widespread and debilitating mental health conditions) into complete remission immediately and for up to months at a time, compared to current medications which often have both limited efficacy[17] and frequent undesirable side-effects.[18] The effect of mushrooms to break OCD habits when applied to primates would be a lot more apparent, as animals operate on habits and instincts with less conscious introspection than humans do.

"Developing drugs that are more effective and faster acting for the treatment of OCD is of utmost importance and until recently, little hope was in hand. A new potential avenue of treatment may exist. There are several reported cases concerning the beneficial effects of hallucinogenic drugs (MDMA, psilocybin and LSD), potent stimulators of 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors, in patients with OCD (Brandrup and Vanggaard, 1977, Rapoport, 1987, Moreno and Delgado, 1997) and related disorders such as body dysmorphic disorder (Hanes, 1996)."[19]


From a sociological perspective we certainly need some type of strong medicine as a species to rid us of all our bad habits, archaic religions, and cultist thought systems, but not the sort of medicine with a huge half life where you can't feel it working, I mean the kind of medicine where you can feel it working. And anyone who has ever tried these things knows that the experience is the medicine, sure it likely has all sorts of fascinating neurophysiological correlates that we can better understand the physical mechanisms by, but the primacy of the experience is what is really important, and needs to be included in the data.

Mckenna said it perfectly here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNx-g5eNJSw

The boundary dissolution is alarming to the ego, it doesn't like that feeling. And it tells you that you are dying. And psychedelic voyagers have to learn that when that red switch goes off you just have to turn it off, it's set wrong. Just turn it off; no, your not dying. But it tells you that your dying because the ego very strongly identifies with the equilibrium of the physical body, and as the physical body begins to slide into the intoxication the ego begins to say "Whats happening here, wait a minute, in losing coherency, you've made a mistake joe, what are you doing joe, joe, im coming apart, joe!" yet, the dissolving of the ego that is the dissolving of this maladaptive behavior pattern that has made our sexual and social politics so complicated. In other words: the ego is not a good thing. It's existence in each one of us and so expressed to form is a symptom of neurosis, cultural neurosis. And the psychedelics dissolves this ego, yet the ego protests this noisily as this goes on


We need these ego dissolving experiences so much as a society it is a travesty they are illegal, and an even greater tragedy that research into them has been all but denied until very recently. And guess what? The very first long term study into psilocybin allowed in the last few years has shown itself to be not only tremendously positive as a medicine but people only need a single dose for long lasting medicinal benefits, some of the research I outlined above in this thread. We haven't even started clinical trials into many of the other efficacious yet illegal psychedelics the underground community have been using as medication for the last 50 years.

So I think that as a community skeptics need to be far more embracing of these states, not just embracing the study of them but as being open to the authenticity of the experiences; on people and society as a whole, as I expect very soon they will be used as strong medicine to cure all sorts of ailments and the people that banned me from JREF for merely discussing the science of psychedelics, or argued against them being studied, are going to be seen as being on the wrong side of history.

We stand on the brink of consciousness re-invigorating the life sciences, just look at all these new emerging fields that are counter the old dominant paradigms. The old paradigm of a gene for everything to explain life and this and that is being uprooted by epigenetics, the philosophy of materialism is slowly being uprooted by quantum physics and neuroplascitiy and biofeedback of conscious choices and experiences is now reinvigorating much of traditional neuroscience. And at the core of these consciousness experiences feeding back into the current models we have the entire array of psychedelic experiences that are still just as much a mystery to science as they were when first discovered over fifty years ago, although progress is certainly now being made. And these trends are only going to increase with time as the boundaries between previously institutionalized disciplines are gradually dissolved over time.

My two cents.


my question is, what does "conscious " experience" even means?


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