Intuition

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Lance Kennedy
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Intuition

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun May 21, 2017 5:05 am

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar05/misfires.aspx

What do you think of intuition as a means of making decisions?

My view, frankly, is that it is crap. Intuitions are decisions based on the workings of the unconscious mind, and that is very frequently dominated by intellectual baggage. We all know of intuitive feelings about probability. Someone throws five heads in a row, and we think the next throw will be another head. Nope, it is still 50:50.

Our judgments of people are influenced by prejudice. We might reject a person for a job based on skin colour if the decision is intuitive.

If you go into a store to buy a particular item, and there are two brands, you will probably buy the one you have seen advertised, even if you do not remember having seen it. That is an illogical intuitive decision.

There is the intuitive bias towards inaction in ethics. For example, take the frequently cited ethical problem of what to do if a train is rushing towards five people. You can save those five by throwing a lever to put the train onto a different tract, but that will kill another single person who is on that track. The intuitive tendency is to inaction, since that seems less blameworthy, even if more people die.

If a decision is required, my view is that we should (as far as possible) reject intuition, and make that decision on the basis of good data by a fully conscious decision making process.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Poodle » Sun May 21, 2017 7:42 am

The problem, though, Lance, is that people tend only to remember their intuitive successes, and intuitive failures are not even seen as intuition. That's pretty much a 100% success rate.

(In case it's not clear, I agree with you completely).

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Re: Intuition

Postby TJrandom » Sun May 21, 2017 10:28 am

Where there are two possible actions, intuition should have a 50% success rate....

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Sun May 21, 2017 3:56 pm

Intuition May Reveal Where Expertise Resides in the Brain - Scientific ...



https://www.scientificamerican.com/.../ ... sides-in...


May 1, 2015 - Our ability to provide rapid, accurate answers engages a small area in the brain's basal ganglia, a hub for learning and automatic behaviors.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Sun May 21, 2017 4:01 pm

I’m supposed to be a scientific person but I use intuition more than logic in making basic decisions.

<— Seymour R. Cray ------Science does not mean an idle resting upon a body of certain knowledge; it means unresting endeavor and continually progressing development toward an end which the poetic intuition may apprehend, but which the intellect can never fully grasp.

<— Max Planck-------------The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know why or how. ---------The really valuable factor is intuition.--------The supreme task of the physicist is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them. ----
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
There is no logical way to the discovery of these elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance. — Albert Einstein ------Intuition will tell the thinking mind where to look next. --Jonas Salk
Last edited by gorgeous on Sun May 21, 2017 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Intuition

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun May 21, 2017 7:27 pm

Apples and Oranges.

Most of the time, we neither have the concentration nor the necessary data to make a rational decision. We have to fall back on our intuitions - they are just heuristics for problem solving: maybe not the best, but sufficient.
of course, when possible we should ask ourselves if there might be a better solution than the first that comes to mind. But you can't live your life questioning everything all the time.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Intuition

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun May 21, 2017 7:59 pm

Gorgeous

There is one thing you seem to be unable to grasp.
Science requires ideas, true. These ideas may come from intuition. But that is a mere beginning, and only a very small beginning at that.

The key thing in science is empirical testing. If an idea sounds good, then beware! The whole history of science is full of ideas that sounded good, but were wrong and caused enormous harm or setbacks to progress. Think of phlogistan, bleeding as therapy, spontaneous genesis of life, evolution by inheritance of acquired characteristics, or the catastrophic theory of geology. When an idea is presented, it is worthless and potentially harmful, until and unless it is confirmed by testing. The testing must be rigorous, credible, objective and empirical. Lack of such testing is the reason that superstring theory is now in the doldrums.

Intuition taken without a very, very big pinch of salt is dangerous!!

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Sun May 21, 2017 8:59 pm

nonsense...spoken like someone afraid of his own nature...sad...----seth---------"Einstein came closest perhaps in this regard, for he was able to quite naturally identify himself with various functions of the universe. He was able to listen to the inner voice of matter. He was intuitively and emotionally led to his discoveries. He leaned against time, and felt it give and wobble." .....Einstein's intuition told him time was different than previously thought ...his intuition is the reason for his success...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Poodle » Sun May 21, 2017 9:04 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Intuition

Postby Nobrot » Sun May 21, 2017 10:22 pm

gorgeous wrote:I’m supposed to be a scientific person but I use intuition more than logic in making basic decisions.

That's working out well isn't it.
gorgeous wrote:— Seymour R. Cray ------Science does not mean an idle resting upon a body of certain knowledge; it means unresting endeavor and continually progressing development toward an end which the poetic intuition may apprehend, but which the intellect can never fully grasp.


— Max Planck-------------The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know why or how. ---------The really valuable factor is intuition.--------The supreme task of the physicist is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them. ----
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
There is no logical way to the discovery of these elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance. — Albert Einstein ------Intuition will tell the thinking mind where to look next. --Jonas Salk

Quite mining again I see.

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Re: Intuition

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 21, 2017 10:29 pm

TJrandom wrote:Where there are two possible actions, intuition should have a 50% success rate....

Nope. Not even close. Its the possibilities of the underlying action, not the choice presented.
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Re: Intuition

Postby TJrandom » Sun May 21, 2017 10:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Where there are two possible actions, intuition should have a 50% success rate....

Nope. Not even close. Its the possibilities of the underlying action, not the choice presented.


That was a given... said differently....

Where there are two possible actions, one of which is deemed to be `correct` and the other `incorrect`, intuition should have a 50% success rate...

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Sun May 21, 2017 10:44 pm

nob....Cray said it , not me.....scientists use intuition...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun May 21, 2017 11:09 pm

Gorgeous

Einstein did not use intuition. His program was hard maths. And that math was based initially on an empirical experiment. He took the results of the Michaelson Morley experiment and calculated the consequences. Even then, his results were not accepted by the scientific community until they carried out empirical testing. In fact, that testing continues to this day.

We have a tragic gap in progress across history, which began with the Roman occupation of ancient Greece, and continued to about 500 years ago, at the beginning of the scientific revolution. The cause of that 2000 year hiatus in human progress was the lack of empirical testing. Intuition and ideas there were, in plenty. But there were more crap intuitive ideas than good ones, and the world got nowhere. Once we had luminaries like Galileo and Newton, who carried out empirical studies (experiments) then science could get going.

Intuition is crap. It may have some value, if backed up by rational thought, which leads to empirical testing, but without that, it is purest garbage.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Poodle » Sun May 21, 2017 11:13 pm

I see what you're saying now, TJ. And you're perfectly correct. But what I actually said was that fans of intuition tend to deny that their wrong choices were intuitive but, instead, resulted from them forcing choices. Thus all of their correct choices are intuitive therefore it's a 100% hit rate. It's remarkably bent logic but it appears to work for them.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Poodle » Sun May 21, 2017 11:15 pm

gorgeous wrote:nob....Cray said it , not me.....scientists use intuition...


How dare you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Sun May 21, 2017 11:18 pm

“I believe in intuitions and inspirations...I sometimes FEEL that I am right. I do not KNOW that I am.”
― Albert Einstein ---------------"Intuition is the source of scientific knowledge"--Aristotle
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun May 21, 2017 11:19 pm

Nobrot wrote: — Max Planck-------------The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery.


I think we are jumping the gun between coming up with a basic idea and then setting that idea out, in a scientific context, as a fully set-out hypothesis. I imagine hundreds of intuitive ideas run through a scientist's head every week with most being discarded in seconds, some in days and a handful over months.

I would certainly agree that scientists have had intuitive moments that have lead to new ideas. That's a really good thing. The more ideas, the better. However the application of those intuitive ideas to a scientific framework also has to take place. Einstein was quite conventional in his applications of his intuitive ideas to Newton's existing laws. ("What reference point?")

I think Lance is correct in that a person with a pre-existing solid knowledge of science is going to have more targeted intuitive ideas and probably have more pragmatic new scientific ideas. On the other hand I think it is good for scientists to chat, drink with and rave on about ridiculous ideas with non scientists simply to increase the variety of new ideas.

It is the scientific method that then separates the wheat from the chaff

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Re: Intuition

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun May 21, 2017 11:43 pm

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Where there are two possible actions, intuition should have a 50% success rate....

Nope. Not even close. Its the possibilities of the underlying action, not the choice presented.


That was a given... said differently....

Where there are two possible actions, one of which is deemed to be `correct` and the other `incorrect`, intuition should have a 50% success rate...

Heh, heh.....said differently: Whatever TJ posts has a 50% chance of being correct?

Now.........I wouldn't say 100%, but certainly a lot higher than 50/50?
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Re: Intuition

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun May 21, 2017 11:53 pm

The real problem is intuitive ideas that are not subject to rigorous empirical testing. Gorgeous is a prime example of how that leads to error. Her ideas of Seth, Little Grey Men from outer space, remote viewing, paranormal phenomena etc., are all examples of something that "sounds good" but turns out to be garbage when tested. The problem with Gorgeous is that he/she or it fails to recognise any test result that contradicts the crap ideas.

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 22, 2017 12:17 am

all are real....you will see....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Intuition

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 22, 2017 12:43 am

gorgeous wrote:all are real....you will see....
Well gorgeous. We don't really have to worry about your opinion. Once inspiration, intuition and knowledge have all come together to create a working hypothesis, the scientific methods then sorts out what's crap and what's real.

You have chosen to live in the world of discarded crap. We live in the world of science.
:lol:

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Re: Intuition

Postby TJrandom » Mon May 22, 2017 1:48 am

Poodle wrote:I see what you're saying now, TJ. And you're perfectly correct. But what I actually said was that fans of intuition tend to deny that their wrong choices were intuitive but, instead, resulted from them forcing choices. Thus all of their correct choices are intuitive therefore it's a 100% hit rate. It's remarkably bent logic but it appears to work for them.


Yes, I got that...

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Re: Intuition

Postby TJrandom » Mon May 22, 2017 1:52 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Where there are two possible actions, intuition should have a 50% success rate....

Nope. Not even close. Its the possibilities of the underlying action, not the choice presented.


That was a given... said differently....

Where there are two possible actions, one of which is deemed to be `correct` and the other `incorrect`, intuition should have a 50% success rate...

Heh, heh.....said differently: Whatever TJ posts has a 50% chance of being correct?

Now.........I wouldn't say 100%, but certainly a lot higher than 50/50?


Well, I was trying to be sneaky with that original statement.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Intuition

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 22, 2017 5:23 am

TJ: you're at 50/50 right now.....I just can't tell which is which.

And just for the record, because we all like records..... there are different types of intuition of different strengths all playing off of what is known or suspected as possible answers. IE: as usual, the poser is oh so fatally vague. Good opportunity to take a shot at TJ though.
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Re: Intuition

Postby Nobrot » Mon May 22, 2017 11:09 am

Poodle wrote:
gorgeous wrote:nob....Cray said it , not me.....scientists use intuition...


How dare you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's the best nob. A Yuge nob! :lol:

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Mon May 29, 2017 10:13 pm

seth----------"Intuition represents the directions of the inner self, breaking through conscious barriers."
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Re: Intuition

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 29, 2017 10:51 pm

gorgeous wrote:seth----------"Intuition represents the directions of the inner self, breaking through conscious barriers."
No Gorgeous. Jane Roberts, the alcoholic said that. Seth is her fictional imaginary alien friend from her books. :D

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Re: Intuition

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon May 29, 2017 11:53 pm

Poetic language for the terribly fallacious subconscious mind influencing the conscious. The key finding in intuition is its error prone nature.

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Re: Intuition

Postby gorgeous » Tue May 30, 2017 12:53 pm

tell that to Einstein and Aristotle....
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Re: Intuition

Postby Poodle » Tue May 30, 2017 3:58 pm

Die wichtigste Entdeckung in der Intuition ist ihre fehleranfällige Natur.
Το βασικό εύρημα στη διαίσθηση είναι η επιρρεπή σε σφάλμα φύση του.

There you go - now you can tell 'em yourself

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Re: Intuition

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue May 30, 2017 7:49 pm

Einstein knew it well, and relied on empirical data and solid math. Aristotle was a member of an earlier time that had not yet worked out a proper scientific method. While he was a genius, he made mistakes that by today' standards were plain ridiculous.


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