Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I think it was D-H who said that happened later?


I asked if I was mistaken by the cost estimate (November 18, 1942) for the two chimneys. Though it seems BRoI is correct that the chimney was to small... something I already admitted to based on Pressacs measurements.
Last edited by Denying-History on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:51 pm

BRoI wrote:
scrmbldgg wrote:And there's also a second chimney on the western side of barrack 41.

I know. Here's one of my photos in which you can see both:

Image

I'm not now arguing that Ochnik built the two venting chimneys of Chamber 4. They were clearly there before he wrote his estimate on 18.11.42, which has to be about an entirely different chimney[s].


Would it be possible that it was placed on one of the disinfection/drying chambers?

http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/intro-columns/

I get they seem small but these are the only buildings that come to mind which contain venting chimneys.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:58 pm

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I think it was D-H who said that happened later?


I asked if I was mistaken by the cost estimate (November 18, 1942) for the two chimneys. Though it seems BRoI is correct that the chimney was to small... something I already admitted to based on Pressacs measurements.

Yes, the larger chimney was most likely not for the bunker (thanks, BRoI, for the comparison)... but my question revolved around the heater and I found the mention I remembered in this post by you (my emphasis):

Also mind that gas chamber III was only room in the bunker which at a point was used for delousing and this started around November of 1943 with the addition of the Heater. Cipora Hurwitz worked clothing detail after her arrival in 1943 and recalls removing clothing from Chamber III.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24902&p=530598#p530598

I know all that didn't revolve around the heater itself, but can you show us what the date of the addition of the heater is based on?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Denying-History » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:28 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I think it was D-H who said that happened later?


I asked if I was mistaken by the cost estimate (November 18, 1942) for the two chimneys. Though it seems BRoI is correct that the chimney was to small... something I already admitted to based on Pressacs measurements.

Yes, the larger chimney was most likely not for the bunker... but my question revolved around the heater and I found the mention I remembered in this post by you (my emphasis):

Also mind that gas chamber III was only room in the bunker which at a point was used for delousing and this started around November of 1943 with the addition of the Heater. Cipora Hurwitz worked clothing detail after her arrival in 1943 and recalls removing clothing from Chamber III.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24902&p=530598#p530598

I know all that didn't revolve around the heater itself, but can you show us what the date of the addition of the heater is based on?


Ah the furnace, from what I can tell Pressac says two were supplied and the Stove from chamber B was moved to Chamber C. Cipora stated chamber 3 wasn't used for delousing till after the gassing program ended but she doesn't really cover this very well, probably considering she didn't enter Majdanek until after the gassing program had ended.

The furnace connected to B&D1 was added in 1942, and according to mattogno on page 133 so was the one connected to Chamber 3

the central furnace described above was replaced by two air heaters manufactured by the company Theodor Klein Maschinen und Apparatebau, headquartered in Knollstrasse 26 in Ludwigshafen. The Central Construction Office had ordered it on September 11, 1942. 345 One of them was installed in front of the out side wall of the westward-facing delousing chamber described in the Soviet expert report as “Chamber III” .

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres4/ccm.pdf

I believe someone told me once that the furnace connected to Chamber III though came with the conversion.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:28 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I think it was D-H who said that happened later?


I asked if I was mistaken by the cost estimate (November 18, 1942) for the two chimneys. Though it seems BRoI is correct that the chimney was to small... something I already admitted to based on Pressacs measurements.

Yes, the larger chimney was most likely not for the bunker... but my question revolved around the heater and I found the mention I remembered in this post by you (my emphasis):

Also mind that gas chamber III was only room in the bunker which at a point was used for delousing and this started around November of 1943 with the addition of the Heater. Cipora Hurwitz worked clothing detail after her arrival in 1943 and recalls removing clothing from Chamber III.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24902&p=530598#p530598

I know all that didn't revolve around the heater itself, but can you show us what the date of the addition of the heater is based on?


Ah the furnace, from what I can tell Pressac says two were supplied and the Stove from chamber B was moved to Chamber C. Cipora stated chamber 3 wasn't used for delousing till after the gassing program ended but she doesn't really cover this very well, probably considering she didn't enter Majdanek until after the gassing program had ended.

The furnace connected to B&D1 was added in 1942, and according to mattogno on page 133 so was the one connected to Chamber 3

No, it says it/they had been ordered on September 11, 1942. No date of installation at bunker is given?

the central furnace described above was replaced by two air heaters manufactured by the company Theodor Klein Maschinen und Apparatebau, headquartered in Knollstrasse 26 in Ludwigshafen. The Central Construction Office had ordered it on September 11, 1942. 345 One of them was installed in front of the out side wall of the westward-facing delousing chamber described in the Soviet expert report as “Chamber III” .

http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres4/ccm.pdf

I believe someone told me once that the furnace connected to Chamber III though came with the conversion.

That's what we're trying to figure out. But why convert a facility that's already planned and, apparently, built for a certain use...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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The Life Saving bath and delousing buildings

Postby David » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
1. Flow of prisoners on arrival, on Hunt's claim that they were always routed from north to south through the bathhouses:
BRoI wrote:I wouldn't now argue that prisoners went through Barracks 41+42 in north-to-south direction. This is because of further bits of documentary evidence that show this was unlikely to have been the case following the erection of Barrack 41, the gassing bunker, and the canopy; along with the various pieces of testimony SM found that showed that prisoners had to hand over their luggage and valuables at Barrack 43 [I think it was 43, i can't find SM posts on it right now].

What says David to each point?


You misunderstand what Mr. Hunt is saying. He is looking at the March 1942 and he is showing that the Bath houses were built based on the Plan.

No, he is saying that prisoners entered the bathhouses from the north, and that the March 1942 is one proof for that.


SM, battling a Straw man again.

Please, please, please try and focus on the facts.
The March 31, 1942 German Plan was for a Life Saving Bath/delousing building.
Building 41 and 42 were built according to the Plan.
The entrance to the building was facing the north.
Generally, arriving prisoners came in through the Entrance and out the Exit.
As Eric points out, the Museum ignores all this.

Furthermore, the Life Saving buildings were not completed until November 1942.
These facts clearly show that the Germans had a life saving intent
for Bldg.s 41 and 42 at least until December 1, 1942.

SM's claims after the Construction
As I said, you could claim that after December 1, 1942 prisoners hopped into the Camp on Pogo Sticks and
I couldn't disprove you.

December 1942
The idea that the Germans were building Life Saving buildings up to December 1942
conflicts with the tales of 1,400,000 being gassed at Majdanek and horrifies Believers like SM.

In 1944 the Soviet "investigators" could not find any actual homicidal gas chambers.
So they claimed the clothing fumigation rooms were used to kill humans. That is WHY the
Museum "ignores" the 1942 Plan and the fact that Bldg. 41 was built according to the Plan.

Delousing Clothes and Bathing prisoners saves lives as shown in Birkenau
Delousing clothes is as life saving as bathing and delousing for arriving inmates.
SM, You could learn a lot about the German programs for saving prisoners' lives by looking at
the Central Sauna at Birkenau. The program was to register the arriving prisoners, have them undress, shower, be deloused, get dressed,and them admitted into the camp.
At the same time, their clothing was fumigated with steam or cyanide in the same building.

Unlike Majdanek, the Soviets claimed that the gas chambers of Birkenau were in the morgues
attached to the cremation buildings.

To be blunt, I am confused by the Believers and their conflicting claims that various fumigation rooms were
used to kill people or admitting that some Soviet stories were "incorrect," or claiming that
CO was piped in or Zyklon was dropped through the chimneys in the roof.

What is amazing is that the Believers insist that their confused potpourri of amazing tales
must be Believed.




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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Xcalibur » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:59 am

Mr. Hunt


The last time the twerp was accorded that measure of respect was by a state prosecutor. :lol:

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:38 pm

I admit, I started reading David's reply above, and, when I saw that it was almost immediately repetitious of his earlier nonsense, I gave up. I'm tired of wasting my time with David's moronic trifles and obsessive repetition. Yesterday I tossed away about two perfectly good hours replying to David's umpteenth repetition of the same points and continued dodging. Until David

- explains his claimed western entry route to Majdanek
- answers the questions in this post (which BRoI has now weighed in on)
- provides evidence for his claims about the bathhouses as requested here
- states his point of view on areas of agreement among BRoI, scrmbldggs, D-H, and me concerning the bathhouses and gassing at Majdanek, summarized here

I'm not answering him any longer. Yes, again.

It's not possible to conduct discussion with a person who refuses to answer basic questions aimed at establishing shared understanding - just as it's not possible to make progress in discussion with someone who ignores answers given and continually reverts to his debunked premises. That is, it's not possible to have a discussion with our pal David. Besides, there's now an actual consideration of issues in Majdanek's history that's "broken out" in the thread.

So, sadly, back on ignore goes David until he is able participate in a relevant and meaningful way. Meanwhile, the "construction engineers" amongst us will continue to clarify details of the barracks and bunker, and we will get on to larger questions about Majdanek (use of Zyklon B, gas vans, number of Jews and other prisoners murdered in gas chambers, postwar memorialization, etc) - without David's distractions, irrelevant comments, and desperate pleas for his empty monologues to be taken seriously.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Shared understandings and answering questions

Postby David » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I admit, I started reading David's reply above, and, when I saw that it was almost immediately repetitious of his earlier nonsense, I gave up. I'm tired of wasting my time with David's moronic trifles and obsessive repetition. Yesterday I tossed away about two perfectly good hours replying to David's umpteenth repetition of the same points and continued dodging. Until David

- explains his claimed western entry route to Majdanek
- answers the questions in this post (which BRoI has now weighed in on)
- provides evidence for his claims about the bathhouses as requested here
- states his point of view on areas of agreement among BRoI, scrmbldggs, D-H, and me concerning the bathhouses and gassing at Majdanek, summarized here

I'm not answering him any longer. Yes, again.


It's not possible to conduct discussion with a person who refuses to answer basic questions aimed at establishing shared understanding - just as it's not possible to make progress in discussion with someone who ignores answers given and continually reverts to his debunked premises. That is, it's not possible to have a discussion with our pal David. Besides, there's now an actual consideration of issues in Majdanek's history that's "broken out" in the thread.

So, sadly, back on ignore goes David until he is able participate in a relevant and meaningful way. Meanwhile, the "construction engineers" amongst us will continue to clarify details of the barracks and bunker, and we will get on to larger questions about Majdanek (use of Zyklon B, gas vans, number of Jews and other prisoners murdered in gas chambers, postwar memorialization, etc) - without David's distractions, irrelevant comments, and desperate pleas for his empty monologues to be taken seriously.


There there, SM- I am answering your question "1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"


and I am trying to start with a shared understanding. It is just that you don't like the understanding.


You can't even admit that the shower/disinfection buildings were meant to save lives of prisoners
by controlling disease. Your point is only that the buildings were not used enough! (with a
slap at Fritz Berg)

You can't admit that Bldg.s 41 and 42 were built according to the March 31, 1942
German plan.
You can't admit that the Plan and the structures pretty well show that the German intent,
at least until December 1, 1942 (approximately), was to preserve inmates' lives.
What happened AFTER November 1942 is a different question.

SM's Place Holder

You don't even look at your "place holder" regarding gassing-
placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek,

- Kapo Ernst Fischer - testimony seems to support fall 1942 for Zyklon gassings
- Prisoner orderly Ludwig Benden’s Zyklon testimony puts use of Zyklon B to early 1943
- Wilhelm Gerstenmeier hearsay - seems to put Zyklon gassings to fall 1943
- SS-man Terner - Zyklon B in October 1943
- Delegatura report on Zyklon refers to mid-1943
- SS-man Thernes testified to Zyklon gassing in fall 1943

Notice anything?




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Re: Why take and shower and be de-loused?

Postby David » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:50 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You're Backsliding, SM.

Not at all. I have been consistent that your re-branding of these barracks as "life saving" is just dumb.


I don't think it is dumb. You just don't like admitting the truth.
Or do you have another reason Why take and shower and be de-loused?


Life saving is Fritz Bergian crap. Prisoners were rarely taken for bathing after being admitted to the camp, and epidemic disease was rampant at Majdanek, affecting many Camp SS. The bathhouses were a minimal measure taken mainly with prisoners coming into the camp to abate the deplorable conditions a bit. Berg's term, which you've cadged, is meant to prettify the nature of a KL and in this case also meant to deceive about the uses of the complex which included the gas chambers in the bunkers. Full stop.

"Live saving" surely refers to the treatment by the "Lublin Fur and Clothing Works" to the shipped off loot. :-P



Actually, you have a good point, scrm. After October 1942 the
Germans were converting/building clothing fumigation facilities.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:49 pm

2nd placeholder for discussion of gassing program, for when we get back to that - this list is for the timing given by witnesses who testified that CO was used at Majdanek to kill people in the gas chambers:

- testimonies CO vs Zyklon B: roughly the same number of witnesses for CO as Zyklon B (12 Zyklon sources, 13 CO)
- Kardaszewski: July-August 1943
- OPUS report: July 1943 but probably refers to events from May-June 1943?
- Ruppert: reported gassing totals in 1942 and testified that gassing was from gas-flasks
- Novak/Nowak: May 1943, July 1943
(Muhsfeldt seems to indicate that CO was used throughout, hard to say; my notes aren't precise for other witnesses as to time - at some point I will go back through this to see if I can find more timing observations - subjectively, the "better" - more detailed descriptions - testimonies are for CO)

Witnesses for both CO and Zyklon state or imply murder by gas taking place as early fall 1942 and as late as end of summer 1943 (CO) or fall 1943 (Zyklon). My recollection is that the information on timing usually is not systematic, thus, a witness who describes fall 1942 gassings may not be recorded giving or ruling out a later date - or vice versa for a witness providing a later date (or I didn't have the full testimony and simply don't know all dates given). The latter dates on the two lists roughly align with Kranz, p 57 where he describes that SS orderlies Endres and Perschon were transferred from Majdanek on 1 August and 1 September 1943 respectively and cites an Opus report dated 16 October 1943 stating that “liquidation of the Jews is not taking place since for the last six weeks there have been no selections of Jews for gassing.” Kranz concluded that it’s possible there were no murders in the gas chambers at Majdanek after the first of September 1943 but certainly none after 3 November 1943.

I missed 2 testimonies on my list for Zyklon B so am adding them below in red, apologies.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek, most "Zyklon testimonies" referring to mid- to fall 1943:

- Kapo Ernst Fischer - testimony seems to support fall 1942 for Zyklon gassings
- Kapo Georg Gröner - October 1942
- Prisoner orderly Ludwig Benden’s Zyklon testimony puts use of Zyklon B to early 1943
- Andrzej Stanisławski, prisoner working in camp office - March, May, and October 1943
- Wilhelm Gerstenmeier hearsay - seems to put Zyklon gassings to fall 1943
- SS-man Terner - Zyklon B in October 1943
- Delegatura report on Zyklon refers to mid-1943
- SS-man Thernes testified to Zyklon gassing in fall 1943

Also on Zyklon B, generally, this from Höss: “Lublin ……….. Cyclone B” (Death Dealer, p 42 - Zyklon B, Höss identified in this same list engine exhaust as the killing agent at Chełmno, Treblinka, Sobibór, and Bełżec)
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Shared understandings and answering questions

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:20 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I admit, I started reading David's reply above, and, when I saw that it was almost immediately repetitious of his earlier nonsense, I gave up. I'm tired of wasting my time with David's moronic trifles and obsessive repetition. Yesterday I tossed away about two perfectly good hours replying to David's umpteenth repetition of the same points and continued dodging. Until David

- explains his claimed western entry route to Majdanek
- answers the questions in this post (which BRoI has now weighed in on)
- provides evidence for his claims about the bathhouses as requested here
- states his point of view on areas of agreement among BRoI, scrmbldggs, D-H, and me concerning the bathhouses and gassing at Majdanek, summarized here

I'm not answering him any longer. Yes, again.


It's not possible to conduct discussion with a person who refuses to answer basic questions aimed at establishing shared understanding - just as it's not possible to make progress in discussion with someone who ignores answers given and continually reverts to his debunked premises. That is, it's not possible to have a discussion with our pal David. Besides, there's now an actual consideration of issues in Majdanek's history that's "broken out" in the thread.

So, sadly, back on ignore goes David until he is able participate in a relevant and meaningful way. Meanwhile, the "construction engineers" amongst us will continue to clarify details of the barracks and bunker, and we will get on to larger questions about Majdanek (use of Zyklon B, gas vans, number of Jews and other prisoners murdered in gas chambers, postwar memorialization, etc) - without David's distractions, irrelevant comments, and desperate pleas for his empty monologues to be taken seriously.


There there, SM- I am answering your question "1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"


and I am trying to start with a shared understanding. It is just that you don't like the understanding.


You can't even admit that the shower/disinfection buildings were meant to save lives of prisoners
by controlling disease. Your point is only that the buildings were not used enough! (with a
slap at Fritz Berg)

You can't admit that Bldg.s 41 and 42 were built according to the March 31, 1942
German plan.
You can't admit that the Plan and the structures pretty well show that the German intent,
at least until December 1, 1942 (approximately), was to preserve inmates' lives.
What happened AFTER November 1942 is a different question.

SM's Place Holder

You don't even look at your "place holder" regarding gassing-
placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek,

- Kapo Ernst Fischer - testimony seems to support fall 1942 for Zyklon gassings
- Prisoner orderly Ludwig Benden’s Zyklon testimony puts use of Zyklon B to early 1943
- Wilhelm Gerstenmeier hearsay - seems to put Zyklon gassings to fall 1943
- SS-man Terner - Zyklon B in October 1943
- Delegatura report on Zyklon refers to mid-1943
- SS-man Thernes testified to Zyklon gassing in fall 1943

Notice anything?




Um, David, seems you noticed not much from the ongoing discussion over what... 30 pages by now, apparently including the posted meaning of the placeholder:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek, most "Zyklon testimonies" referring to mid- to fall 1943:
...
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24902&start=1120#p541681


Have you noticed the following post?

Statistical Mechanic wrote:2nd placeholder for discussion of gassing program, for when we get back to that - this list is for the timing given by witnesses who testified that CO was used at Majdanek to kill people in the gas chambers:

- testimonies CO vs Zyklon B: roughly the same number of witnesses for CO as Zyklon B (12 Zyklon sources, 13 CO)
- Kardaszewski: July-August 1943
- OPUS report: July 1943 but probably refers to events from May-June 1943?
- Ruppert: reported gassing totals in 1942 and testified that gassing was from gas-flasks
- Novak/Nowak: May 1943, July 1943
(Muhsfeldt seems to indicate that CO was used throughout, hard to say; my notes aren't precise for other witnesses as to time - at some point I will go back through this to see if I can find more timing observations - subjectively, the "better" - more detailed descriptions - testimonies are for CO)

Witnesses for both CO and Zyklon state or imply murder by gas taking place as early fall 1942 and as late as end of summer 1943 (CO) or fall 1943 (Zyklon). My recollection is that the information on timing usually is not systematic, thus, a witness who describes fall 1942 gassings may not be recorded giving or ruling out a later date - or vice versa for a witness providing a later date (or I didn't have the full testimony and simply don't know all dates given). The latter dates on the two lists roughly align with Kranz, p 57 where he describes that SS orderlies Endres and Perschon were transferred from Majdanek on 1 August and 1 September 1943 respectively and cites an Opus report dated 16 October 1943 stating that “liquidation of the Jews is not taking place since for the last six weeks there have been no selections of Jews for gassing.” Kranz concluded that it’s possible there were no murders in the gas chambers at Majdanek after the first of September 1943 but certainly none after 3 November 1943.

I missed 2 testimonies on my list for Zyklon B so am adding them below in red, apologies.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek, most "Zyklon testimonies" referring to mid- to fall 1943:

- Kapo Ernst Fischer - testimony seems to support fall 1942 for Zyklon gassings
- Kapo Georg Gröner - October 1942
- Prisoner orderly Ludwig Benden’s Zyklon testimony puts use of Zyklon B to early 1943
- Andrzej Stanisławski, prisoner working in camp office - March, May, and October 1943
- Wilhelm Gerstenmeier hearsay - seems to put Zyklon gassings to fall 1943
- SS-man Terner - Zyklon B in October 1943
- Delegatura report on Zyklon refers to mid-1943
- SS-man Thernes testified to Zyklon gassing in fall 1943

Also on Zyklon B, generally, this from Höss: “Lublin ……….. Cyclone B” (Death Dealer, p 42 - Zyklon B, Höss identified in this same list engine exhaust as the killing agent at Chełmno, Treblinka, Sobibór, and Bełżec)
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Why take and shower and be de-loused?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:36 pm

David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You're Backsliding, SM.

Not at all. I have been consistent that your re-branding of these barracks as "life saving" is just dumb.


I don't think it is dumb. You just don't like admitting the truth.
Or do you have another reason Why take and shower and be de-loused?


Life saving is Fritz Bergian crap. Prisoners were rarely taken for bathing after being admitted to the camp, and epidemic disease was rampant at Majdanek, affecting many Camp SS. The bathhouses were a minimal measure taken mainly with prisoners coming into the camp to abate the deplorable conditions a bit. Berg's term, which you've cadged, is meant to prettify the nature of a KL and in this case also meant to deceive about the uses of the complex which included the gas chambers in the bunkers. Full stop.

"Live saving" surely refers to the treatment by the "Lublin Fur and Clothing Works" to the shipped off loot. :-P



Actually, you have a good point, scrm. After October 1942 the
Germans were converting/building clothing fumigation facilities.

After all this time, you're still riding the waves in the wake of the "life-saving showers"?

Have you not learned one tiny other little thing by now? :(
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:2nd placeholder for discussion of gassing program, for when we get back to that - this list is for the timing given by witnesses who testified that CO was used at Majdanek to kill people in the gas chambers:

- testimonies CO vs Zyklon B: roughly the same number of witnesses for CO as Zyklon B (12 Zyklon sources, 13 CO)
- Kardaszewski: July-August 1943
- OPUS report: July 1943 but probably refers to events from May-June 1943?
- Ruppert: reported gassing totals in 1942 and testified that gassing was from gas-flasks
- Novak/Nowak: May 1943, July 1943
(Muhsfeldt seems to indicate that CO was used throughout, hard to say; my notes aren't precise for other witnesses as to time - at some point I will go back through this to see if I can find more timing observations - subjectively, the "better" - more detailed descriptions - testimonies are for CO)

Witnesses for both CO and Zyklon state or imply murder by gas taking place as early fall 1942 and as late as end of summer 1943 (CO) or fall 1943 (Zyklon). My recollection is that the information on timing usually is not systematic, thus, a witness who describes fall 1942 gassings may not be recorded giving or ruling out a later date - or vice versa for a witness providing a later date (or I didn't have the full testimony and simply don't know all dates given). The latter dates on the two lists roughly align with Kranz, p 57 where he describes that SS orderlies Endres and Perschon were transferred from Majdanek on 1 August and 1 September 1943 respectively and cites an Opus report dated 16 October 1943 stating that “liquidation of the Jews is not taking place since for the last six weeks there have been no selections of Jews for gassing.” Kranz concluded that it’s possible there were no murders in the gas chambers at Majdanek after the first of September 1943 but certainly none after 3 November 1943.

I missed 2 testimonies on my list for Zyklon B so am adding them below in red, apologies.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:placeholder on testimonies re: timing of Zyklon gassings at Majdanek, most "Zyklon testimonies" referring to mid- to fall 1943:

- Kapo Ernst Fischer - testimony seems to support fall 1942 for Zyklon gassings
- Kapo Georg Gröner - October 1942
- Prisoner orderly Ludwig Benden’s Zyklon testimony puts use of Zyklon B to early 1943
- Andrzej Stanisławski, prisoner working in camp office - March, May, and October 1943
- Wilhelm Gerstenmeier hearsay - seems to put Zyklon gassings to fall 1943
- SS-man Terner - Zyklon B in October 1943
- Delegatura report on Zyklon refers to mid-1943
- SS-man Thernes testified to Zyklon gassing in fall 1943

Also on Zyklon B, generally, this from Höss: “Lublin ……….. Cyclone B” (Death Dealer, p 42 - Zyklon B, Höss identified in this same list engine exhaust as the killing agent at Chełmno, Treblinka, Sobibór, and Bełżec)

I should add that the start dates on these Zyklon/CO testimonies giving dates roughly align with the following on the approximate time by which gassings had begun at Majdanek, too (there's more but I'm adding this for now):

- Heinz Stalp, SS member, being interrogated in August 1944 and testifying to a gassing that took place in October 1942, 350 women and children - Kranz p 48

- a number of witnesses described the gassing of the Jews from Majdan Tatarski following liquidation of the temporary ghetto there on 9 November 1942. Kranz (p 48) says that this was the first known large selection for the gas chambers (3,000 Jews brought to Majdanek at that time, bodies of those selected for gas chambers, mostly children, burned in Krępiec forest).



- however, one important witness, SS man Ruppert, testified that the gassings began in October 1942 and through December 1942 continued at a pace of 500-600 a week:

 "Ruppert claims that in the period from October through December 1942, 500-600 people were murdered each week in the Majdanek gas chambers. Thus, during the last quarter of that year, a total of 6,000 to 7,200 people were gassed. This number probably also includes Polish prisoners . . . But . . . out of 15,000 Jews brought to Majdanek from the Warsaw ghetto in the summer of 1943, approximately 4,000-5,000 people were gassed." Kranz, p 74

- Kuwalek et al comparing decodes with other sources says that there were no 'selections on arrival' until October 1942 (need to dig up this reference).

- also, FWIW, Marszałek, pp 140-142, description of bunker has chambers opened and first used in October 1942 (matches Kranz here) - with earlier gassings in the makeshift chamber (based on Auschwitz successes with Soviet).
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:50 pm

David wrote:December 1942
The idea that the Germans were building Life Saving buildings up to December 1942
conflicts with the tales of 1,400,000 being gassed at Majdanek and horrifies Believers like SM.


David, you really need to let the whole "1.4 million gassed at Majdanek" go. You sound like those ridiculous deniers who cling to the "4 million dead" at Auschwitz.
The purpose behind those buildings was to prevent the spread of disease among prisoners, the SS and the surrounding countryside. This was a practical decision. You make it sound like the SS loved the prisoners so much they went out of their way to coddle, cuddle and protect the prisoners from harm. They could have done that by not placing them in custody in the first place.

David wrote:Delousing Clothes and Bathing prisoners saves lives as shown in Birkenau
Delousing clothes is as life saving as bathing and delousing for arriving inmates.
SM, You could learn a lot about the German programs for saving prisoners' lives by looking at
the Central Sauna at Birkenau. The program was to register the arriving prisoners, have them undress, shower, be deloused, get dressed,and them admitted into the camp.
At the same time, their clothing was fumigated with steam or cyanide in the same building.


That's nice. Tell me, David. What crime did those Jews commit, the ones the Germans sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau? The Germans could have saved lives by not sending those people to Birkenau in the first place.

David wrote:With a slap at Fritz Berg...


I agree that Berg needs to be slapped. Repeatedly. He's a vile old goblin.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:What crime did those Jews commit, the ones the Germans sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau? The Germans could have saved lives by not sending those people to Birkenau in the first place.

Minor (major?) point: about half the prisoners who passed through Majdanek were not Jews - Polish political prisoners and suspected members of the resistance, local peasants suspected of not meeting grain or other German quotas, Belorussians rounded up in pacification actions, POWs, deportees from Reich camps (Poles, Czechs, and Germans IIRC), locals seized as hostages, families seized in operations in Zamasc actions, Poles seized on the streets for labor, invalid and dying prisoners from other KLs, and Polish prisoners from Lublin castle. David likes to confuse all this.

As to the death toll, Kranz has estimated Jewish deaths at about 60,000 out of 74,000 prisoners (mortality approx 80%). About 20,000 other prisoners died at Majdanek, out of 76,000 (mortality 26%).

"Vile old goblin" is spot on. I like that. The camp's installations were not life-saving measures; prisoners were brought there for punishment, to work at hard labor, to be murdered or die, as hostages. The showers and baths there were, as you say, minimal actions to maintain a labor force and especially to safeguard the SS from epidemics (accounts of SS life in the camp show frequent absences among the SS personnel on account of contagious disease passed to them). The bathhouses in particular were part of a complex designed for plunder, and clothes taken from executed prisoners were disinfected in them, hardly for the benefit of executed prisoners! With widespread disease in the camp (there were a number of typhus outbreaks and other contagious diseases, the water supply and hygienic facilities were nowhere near adequate, caloric intake and nutrition were low enough to cause malnutrition among prisoners, prisoners were subjected to beatings and punishing labor, etc - perhaps David considers these also to be part of the camp's life-saving regimen?).

David doesn't know what he's talking about and IMO is best left to mutter to himself whatever he fancies on any particular day.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:What crime did those Jews commit, the ones the Germans sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau? The Germans could have saved lives by not sending those people to Birkenau in the first place.

Minor (major?) point: about half the prisoners who passed through Majdanek were not Jews - Polish political prisoners and suspected members of the resistance, local peasants suspected of not meeting grain or other German quotas, Belorussians rounded up in pacification actions, POWs, deportees from Reich camps (Poles, Czechs, and Germans IIRC), locals seized as hostages, families seized in operations in Zamasc actions, Poles seized on the streets for labor, invalid and dying prisoners from other KLs, and Polish prisoners from Lublin castle. David likes to confuse all this.

As to the death toll, Kranz has estimated Jewish deaths at about 60,000 out of 74,000 prisoners (mortality approx 80%). About 20,000 other prisoners died at Majdanek, out of 76,000 (mortality 26%).


I take a rather pragmatic view about Germans rounding up members of the Resistance, I understand why this was done. But, the others....the hostages, the farmers rounded up because they didn't meet their quotas (as if taking farmers away from their farms was going to help), the Belorussians rounded up in partisan actions, etc. placed these people in harms way by placing them in Majdanek and other camps.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:28 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:What crime did those Jews commit, the ones the Germans sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau? The Germans could have saved lives by not sending those people to Birkenau in the first place.

Minor (major?) point: about half the prisoners who passed through Majdanek were not Jews - Polish political prisoners and suspected members of the resistance, local peasants suspected of not meeting grain or other German quotas, Belorussians rounded up in pacification actions, POWs, deportees from Reich camps (Poles, Czechs, and Germans IIRC), locals seized as hostages, families seized in operations in Zamasc actions, Poles seized on the streets for labor, invalid and dying prisoners from other KLs, and Polish prisoners from Lublin castle. David likes to confuse all this.

As to the death toll, Kranz has estimated Jewish deaths at about 60,000 out of 74,000 prisoners (mortality approx 80%). About 20,000 other prisoners died at Majdanek, out of 76,000 (mortality 26%).


I take a rather pragmatic view about Germans rounding up members of the Resistance, I understand why this was done. But, the others....the hostages, the farmers rounded up because they didn't meet their quotas (as if taking farmers away from their farms was going to help), the Belorussians rounded up in partisan actions, etc. placed these people in harms way by placing them in Majdanek and other camps.

It is also legitimate to hold POWs - the trouble in both the case of POWs and resistance suspects is the conditions under which they were kept, which amounted to punitive conditions and caused slow (or fast) death (not life-saving), and, in the case of POWs, also subjected the prisoners to forced labor in munitions and other war-related enterprises contrary to international law.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:What crime did those Jews commit, the ones the Germans sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau? The Germans could have saved lives by not sending those people to Birkenau in the first place.

Minor (major?) point: about half the prisoners who passed through Majdanek were not Jews - Polish political prisoners and suspected members of the resistance, local peasants suspected of not meeting grain or other German quotas, Belorussians rounded up in pacification actions, POWs, deportees from Reich camps (Poles, Czechs, and Germans IIRC), locals seized as hostages, families seized in operations in Zamasc actions, Poles seized on the streets for labor, invalid and dying prisoners from other KLs, and Polish prisoners from Lublin castle. David likes to confuse all this.

As to the death toll, Kranz has estimated Jewish deaths at about 60,000 out of 74,000 prisoners (mortality approx 80%). About 20,000 other prisoners died at Majdanek, out of 76,000 (mortality 26%).


I take a rather pragmatic view about Germans rounding up members of the Resistance, I understand why this was done. But, the others....the hostages, the farmers rounded up because they didn't meet their quotas (as if taking farmers away from their farms was going to help), the Belorussians rounded up in partisan actions, etc. placed these people in harms way by placing them in Majdanek and other camps.

It is also legitimate to hold POWs - the trouble in both the case of POWs and resistance suspects is the conditions under which they were kept, which amounted to punitive conditions and caused slow (or fast) death (not life-saving), and, in the case of POWs, also subjected the prisoners to forced labor in munitions and other war-related enterprises contrary to international law.


I agree. Holding those prisoners was perfectly legitimate, it was the conditions under which they were held that made the German behavior illegal.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:52 pm

And which explains why it is correct to call out "life saving," the way you did, as stupid pet trick executed poorly in David's case.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:And which explains why it is correct to call out "life saving," the way you did, as stupid pet trick executed poorly in David's case.



Yeah, that irked me. That's like asking why the Auschwitz camp had a sewage processing plant.

Yes, I did have a denier once ask me why a death camp would have a sewage processing plant........ :frown:

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:08 pm

Guys, you've got to see it David's G&M's way: it was no one's fault but the circumstances. The administration and others were mightily hindered in any which way from actually correcting those well known shortcomings of the camp, and not to a small degree by those who made concrete objects of art like the tortoise, which "...embodied the principle of ‘work slowly and poorly’. No doubt the Majdanek inmates lived up to this principle wherever they possibly could."
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:23 am

Ah, it was the prisoners fault, that makes sense . . . thanks for straightening this out.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:41 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ah, it was the prisoners fault, that makes sense . . . thanks for straightening this out.

A bit offtopic, but, oddly, I do think there was quite a lot of an abuser's "Look what you made me do!" going on in all that.

AFAIK, and specifically to Majdanek, Lächert had been considered especially unsuited to any such position as she held at the camp by the court.


Oh wait, our insightful duo had something to say about such, too. IIRC (and paraphrased), it was mostly the lowest ranks of the SS officers and, naturally, the Kapos who misbehaved and doled it out the worst...
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby BRoI » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:00 am

Sorry for looking like I was avoiding this thread for the last few days. I have been reading all the posts, but I didn't respond to anything because I knew I'd have to first look stuff up, and felt too lazy to do it over the weekend.

One issue I couldn't work in to my main text:

SM, you've muddled the two issue in the 22.10.42 report [M&G 132]:

The "completed" "construction of a disinfestation facility" is clearly referring to the bunker IMO, and the "works in progress", the "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" obviously means Barracks 41 & 42. 41 was probably long-ago completed but 42 was still unfinished. This was a report to economic chief at the SS-WVHA GG. They weren't going to trouble him with chapter and verse.

Scrmbldggs suggested the report's mention of "installation of 4 disinfestation chambers" being a task "still to be done" refers to 4 cabins in B&D2. I think he might be right, considering A) Ochnik's 18.11.42 estimate and 08.01.43 invoice for building a brick chimney may be one of the chimneys on B&D2 [as argued in my earlier post]; B) Maria Wisnioch's assertion that there are 4 cabins for steam disinfection in B&D2.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


- Between 1st and 21st of August 1942 a decision was taken to modify the plans for the bunker to [partial, IMO] homicidal use. And, IMO, the bunker was likely completed by October and ready to begin operating as both a homicidal [nos. 1 + 3] and delousing gas chamber [no. 3].

M&G [130] quote a 10.07.42 report by the ZBL Chief Lublin about the planned disinfestation facility for the Fur & Clothing Works of Lublin, and cite a diagram of the planned facility dated "August 1942" [Document 31, p.322]. These documents show that the ZBL still planned in early August to install a single Kori heater to heat both chambers in the position where the "observation & control room" was eventually built. So, it can't really be contested that as of [early] August 1942, the two 75cbm chambers were still intended to be Zyklon B delousing chambers.

Things had evidently changed by 21 August 1942.

Schwindt [140] claims 2 air heaters were ordered from the Theodor Klein Co. on the 21.08.42. M&G [131] claimed they were ordered on 11.09.42, but they only cite a secondary source and Schwindt's cite an ZBL Lublin document. She goes on to say the heaters were due to be delivered between the 10th -15th Sept.

Therefore, something happened between c.01.08.42 and 21.08.42 that altered the original plans.

Here I must briefly address the Great Schism over the gassing story of Majdanek.

- On one side you have Kranz stating in his 2007 book [revised 2010] that no homicidal gassings with Zyklon B occurred in Chamber 3. He therefore has to tie himself into knots with conjecture about the chambers not being finished at the same time, and supposed later adjustments to convert it into a ZB delousing chamber. The current museum signage for Chamber 3 states that it was only used for CO gassings.

- On the other side is Schwindt who claimed in her 2005 book that homicidal gassings with Zyklon B did occur in Chamber 3 [159]. She cites as evidence the judgment of the Duesseldorf-Majdaenk trial which ruled that Zyklon B could be poured into the heater and piped into the chamber [see M&G 252 for excerpts in English].

The judgment does indeed make this assertion [JuNSV 44:404], shorty after it claimed that both the CO & ZB gas chambers were inside [Im Inneren] the bathing barrack! [403]. So the post-war modifications that connected B&D1 with the bunker were passed off as an original part of the facility to the German court!

I side with Schwindt—if only as far as agreeing that Chamber 3 was operational for Zyklon B & CO gassings in October; she also says Chamber 1 & 2 [!] were also operational by October [140].

Kranz doesn't even mention the two Klein heaters ordered on 21.08.42 and therefore avoids having to offer a theory on why the nazis ordered them so long after the decision to adapt the chambers to *exclusive* homicidal use in which Chamber 3 was CO only.



Finally, I'll offer a little "soft-core denial" speculation on the August decision to go homicidal:


After the plan to build a bunker containing two 75cbm chambers built to Degesch specification for Zyklon B delousing was approved by the SS-WVHA GG, Globocnik and Koegel decided that they could also use this facility for homicidal gassings in line with the Action 14f13 programme.

Globocnik got in touch with Viktor Brack who advised that 75cbm chambers were too large for the average number of victims they foresaw killing per gassing; CO would be wasted, and the killing-time would be unnecessarily long.

In early August, but after the ZBL Lublin had drawn the aforementioned plan, Globocnik, Koegel, and the ZBL Lublin decided that the simplest solution would be to split the eastern chamber in half to create a chamber more suitably sized for the foreseen CO gassings, but also to outfit the larger western chamber for occasional homicidal use.

Despite the new plan to use them as HGCs they still intended to use at least the larger western chamber for ZB delousings.

The ZBL Lublin must have modified the plans follows:

- The single Kori heater would not be able to provide hot air to the new Chamber 2 and the originally planned position for the heater would not now be available anyway [see below]

- Different heaters would be required. A Klein heater had been used in Chamber 4 of B&D1 since at least July 1942 [I've found evidence in a in a TNA file regarding Testa that Majdaenk ordered a Klein heater for the "temporary arrangement" shortly before 13.05.42]. Two Klein heaters were eventually ordered by ZBL Lublin on 21.08.42

ZBL Lublin might have ordered two Kleins as they thought it possible to use Chamber 2 as a ZB delousing chamber, before learning that it was too small to be feasible. Karl Weinbacher of Tesch & Stabenow wrote that this type of Klein heater could heat a room 75cbm to 100 degrees, but Chamber 2 was only half that size. Perhaps the surplus heater was returned to Klein for a refund, or it could be one of the two that currently stand in the the drying chambers/delousing chambers built in Barrack 28 in c.October 1943 [@ D-H - that's just one of several reasons why Ochnik's 08.01.43 inovice for building a chimney couldn't be the venting chimneys you suggested. Another is that those venting chimneys were made from wood-—there's a rather famous 1944 picture of one, remember?].

- The observation & control room was added where the Kori heater had been planned

- The a small viewing window had to be built/opened in the southern wall of Chamber 1 into the planned observation room

- Once the Klein heaters arrived in mid-Sept, two holes were opened in the western wall of Chamber 3 so one could be fitted to that chamber

- One of Brack's technicians arrived at Majdaenk to install the piping that would feed the gas into the CO chamber. He also fitted piping into the larger, western chamber so it could also be used as a HGC if the main chamber was to small for a particular group of victims
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:25 am

Minor nitpick (my emphasis):

BRoI wrote:M&G [130] quote a 10.07.42 report by the ZBL Chief Lublin about the planned disinfestation facility for the Fur & Clothing Works of Lublin, and cite a diagram of the planned facility dated "August 1942" [Document 31, p.322]. These documents show that the ZBL still planned in early August to install a single Kori heater to heat both chambers in the position where the "observation & control room" was eventually built.


Sorta - on the opposite side (heater was drawn to the north in the August blueprint, the "control room" actually is on the southern side). And the bunker was shifted to the west east and closer to barrack 41...





Edit: A change - or rather, correction - in direction (west to east).
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Hate spews of the Gas Chamber Believers

Postby David » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:31 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:And which explains why it is correct to call out "life saving," the way you did, as stupid pet trick executed poorly in David's case.



Yeah, that irked me. That's like asking why the Auschwitz camp had a sewage processing plant.

Yes, I did have a denier once ask me why a death camp would have a sewage processing plant........ :frown:


It seems that a Believer nerve was touched with the comment that the bath/disinfection/clothing fumigation
center at Majdanek was a "life saving" facility. Of course they were.
Only idiots whose analytical ability has been warped by their anti-German hate would deny it.

The twisted logic of the Believer's is shown in SM's comment,
"Prisoners were rarely taken for bathing after being admitted to the camp, and epidemic disease was rampant at Majdanek, affecting many Camp SS. The bathhouses were a minimal measure taken mainly with prisoners coming into the camp to abate the deplorable conditions a bit. Berg's term, which you've cadged, is meant to prettify the nature of a KL and in this case also meant to deceive about the uses of the complex which included the gas chambers in the bunkers. Full stop."

Translation- "The bath Center was not for saving lives... and the Germans should have used it more." :roll: :roll:


The discussion is about the purpose of the building shown in the March 31, 1942 plans.
Whether a "Minimal measure" or underused, the bath/disinfection/clothing fumigation center at Bldg.s 41 and 42 were designed to keep the
prisoners and camp inmates free of disease.

Image

Again, here is the German Plan for everyone to review. Again, thanks to the Revisionist Scholars who brought this important piece of
evidence to light.




Last edited by David on Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby David » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:38 am

BRoI wrote:
SM, you've muddled the two issue in the 22.10.42 report [M&G 132]:

The "completed" "construction of a disinfestation facility" is clearly referring to the bunker IMO, and the "works in progress", the "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" obviously means Barracks 41 & 42. 41 was probably long-ago completed but 42 was still unfinished. This was a report to economic chief at the SS-WVHA GG. They weren't going to trouble him with chapter and verse.



Why not read the document for what it says?... Other than the fact you don't like the result-
Is there a reason to report incorrect information to the economic chief other than getting a free trip to the
Eastern Front for lying to a superior?


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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:47 am

You Ok, David?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:55 am

Nice.

BRoI wrote:SM, you've muddled the two issue in the 22.10.42 report [M&G 132]:

The "completed" "construction of a disinfestation facility" is clearly referring to the bunker IMO, and the "works in progress", the "2 delousing barracks with baths, erected partly on wooden post supports and partly on solid foundations" obviously means Barracks 41 & 42. 41 was probably long-ago completed but 42 was still unfinished. This was a report to economic chief at the SS-WVHA GG. They weren't going to trouble him with chapter and verse.

p 134? But, yeah, you're right, and scrmbldgss too, although I still can't figure out what G&M mean by Barrack XIIA. The bunker was complete by 22 October; there was still some work remaining in one of the bathhouses. That's the reverse of what I recalled/glossed.

BRoI wrote:Scrmbldggs suggested the report's mention of "installation of 4 disinfestation chambers" being a task "still to be done" refers to 4 cabins in B&D2. I think he might be right, considering A) Ochnik's 18.11.42 estimate and 08.01.43 invoice for building a brick chimney may be one of the chimneys on B&D2 [as argued in my earlier post]; B) Maria Wisnioch's assertion that there are 4 cabins for steam disinfection in B&D2.

Is this the only way to identify the not-quite-completed barrack as 42?

BRoI wrote:- Between 1st and 21st of August 1942 a decision was taken to modify the plans for the bunker to [partial, IMO] homicidal use. And, IMO, the bunker was likely completed by October and ready to begin operating as both a homicidal [nos. 1 + 3] and delousing gas chamber [no. 3].

M&G [130] quote a 10.07.42 report by the ZBL Chief Lublin about the planned disinfestation facility for the Fur & Clothing Works of Lublin, and cite a diagram of the planned facility dated "August 1942" [Document 31, p.322]. These documents show that the ZBL still planned in early August to install a single Kori heater to heat both chambers in the position where the "observation & control room" was eventually built. So, it can't really be contested that as of [early] August 1942, the two 75cbm chambers were still intended to be Zyklon B delousing chambers.

Things had evidently changed by 21 August 1942.

Schwindt [140] claims 2 air heaters were ordered from the Theodor Klein Co. on the 21.08.42. M&G [131] claimed they were ordered on 11.09.42, but they only cite a secondary source and Schwindt's cite an ZBL Lublin document. She goes on to say the heaters were due to be delivered between the 10th -15th Sept.

Therefore, something happened between c.01.08.42 and 21.08.42 that altered the original plans.

Here I must briefly address the Great Schism in orthodox gassing story of Majdanek.

- On one side you have Kranz stating in his 2007 book [revised 2010] that no homicidal gassings with Zyklon B occurred in Chamber 3. He therefore has to tie himself into knots with conjecture about the chambers not being finished at the same time, and supposed later adjustments to convert it into a ZB delousing chamber. The current museum sign for Chamber 3 state that only CO happened in it.

- On the other side is Schwindt, who claimed in her 2005 book that homicidal gassings with Zyklon B did occur in Chamber 3 [159]. She cites as evidence the judgment of the Duesseldorf-Majdaenk trial which ruled that Zyklon B could be poured into the heater and piped into the chamber [see M&G 252 for excerpts in English].

The judgment does indeed make this assertion [JuNSV 44:404], shorty after it claimed that both the CO & ZB gas chambers were inside [Im Inneren] the bathing barrack! [403]. So the post-war modifications that connected B&D1 with the bunker were passed off as an original part of the facility to the German court!

Do you have a quotation on this? I don't have the judgment and am curious as to what's said?

Side issue: I've not read Schwindt. How does she deal with room "IV"?

BRoI wrote:I side with Schwindt—if only as far as agreeing that Chamber 3 was operational for Zyklon B & CO gassings in October; she also says Chamber 1 & 2 [!] were also operational by October [140].

Operational for? But not actually used for Zyklon B gassing?

BRoI wrote:Kranz doesn't even mention the two Klein heaters ordered on 21.08.42 and therefore avoids having to offer a theory on why the nazis ordered them so long after the decision to adapt the chambers to *exclusive* homicidal use in which Chamber 3 was CO only.

Finally, I'll offer a little "soft-core denial" speculation on the August decision to go homicidal:

I honestly don't see this speculation necessarily as "soft-core denial" - depending on your answer the question I ask below; the details of August construction/decisions have been unclear to me, so I find what you say interesting. And retrofitting and bootstrapping were typical in the camps, including with this complex.

BRoI wrote:After the plan to build a bunker containing two 75cbm chambers built to Degesch specification for Zyklon B delousing was approved by the SS-WVHA GG, Globocnik and Koegel decided that they could also use this facility for homicidal gassings in line with the Action 14f13 program.

Is this inference or based on documents/testimony?

BRoI wrote:Globocnik got in touch with Viktor Brack who advised that 75cbm chambers were too large for the average number of victims they foresaw killing per gassing; CO would be wasted, and the killing-time would be unnecessarily long.

In early August, but after the ZBL Lublin had drawn the aforementioned plan, Globocnik, Koegel, and the ZBL Lublin decided that the simplest solution would be to split the eastern chamber in half to create a chamber more suitably sized for the foreseen CO gassings, but also to outfit the larger western chamber for occasional homicidal use.

Despite the new plan to use them as HGCs, they still intended to use at least the larger western chamber for ZB delousings.

The ZBL Lublin must have modified the plans follows:

- The single Kori heater would not be able to provide hot air to the new Chamber 2 and the originally planned position for the heater would not now be available anyway [see below]

- Different heaters would be required. A Klein heater had been used in Chamber 4 of B&D1 since at least July 1942 [I've found evidence in a in a TNA file regarding Testa that Majdaenk ordered a Klein heater for the "temporary arrangement" shortly before 13.05.42]. Two Klein heaters were eventually ordered by ZBL Lublin on 21.08.42

ZBL Lublin might have ordered two Kleins as they thought it possible to use Chamber 2 as a ZB delousing chamber, before learning that it was too small to be feasible. Karl Weinbacher of Tesch & Stabenow wrote that this type of Klein heater could heat a room 75cbm to 100 degrees, but Chamber 2 was only half that size. Perhaps the surplus heater was returned to Klein for a refund, or it could be one of the two that currently stand in the the drying chambers/delousing chambers built in Barrack 28 in c.October 1943 [@ D-H - that's just one of several reasons why the Ochnik's 08.01.43 inovice for building a chimney couldn't be the venting chimneys you suggested. Another is that those ones were made from wood--there's a famous 1944 picture of one, remember?].

- The observation & control room was added where the Kori heater had been planned

- The a small viewing window had to be built/opened in the southern wall of Chamber 1 into the planned observation room

- Once the Klein heaters arrived in mid-Sept, two holes were opened in the western wall of Chamber 3 so one could be fitted to that chamber

- One of Brack's technicians arrived at Majdaenk to install the piping that would feed the gas into the CO chamber. He also fitted piping into the larger, western chamber so it could also be used as a HGC if the main chamber was to small for a particular group of victims

Are there document or testimony references for Brack's role throughout this scenario?

The conclusion - two different sized rooms, peephole to smaller room, with the western room for larger transports - fits with Pressac IIRC and also with much of the usage history of the gas chambers, with some exceptions (the May-June 1943 time period).

I am notoriously slow at construction plans/details, and sometimes I never get there, so I will work through this later. For now, there's something missing: clearly, if this scenario is right, a further decision was made outside the scope of 14f13 type usage, around October, to conduct selections (and gassings) of Jews on their arrival to the camp. Right?

A second question is why the use of the gas chambers was discontinued around the time of Erntefest, instead of being pressed into service for the so-called death transports and other small-scale liquidation actions that followed?
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Crazy Believers

Postby David » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:04 am

We are still working on SM's challenge Question Number 1---
"1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?"

The big delay is Believer inability to admit that the the bath/disinfection/clothing fumigation center shown on the German plan was
for a... the bath/disinfection/clothing fumigation center designed to save lives.
This obvious fact should be a starting point to the discussion. Note that clothing fumigation expanded at the entrance to the Camp
with the building of the bunker fumigation building...just where a clothing fumigation building would be placed and just where
a homicidal gas chamber wouldn't.

The Believers seem more comfortable going on about how German documents don't mean what they say or figuring out how
CO gassing systems work. Maybe they can focus in two or three weeks

I am going off to celebrate the harvest- Pleasant Diwali to all.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:10 am

:hmm: David, why have CO gassing going on in your "live-saving fumigator" at all?
.

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Re: Hate spews of the Gas Chamber Believers

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:10 am

David wrote:It seems that a Believer nerve was touched with the comment that the bath/disinfection/clothing fumigation
center at Majdanek was a "life saving" facility. Of course they were.


Your context is what I have an issue with. Any disinfection or bathing centers put in place were of a practical nature, designed to prevent the spread of disease. The fact that they benefitted the prisoners was purely secondary in nature.
Also, any benefit they provided was only temporary. Poor rations, overcrowding and harsh measures taken against the prisoners far offset any temporary benefit given by a shower.

David wrote:Only idiots whose analytical ability has been warped by their anti-German hate would deny it.


Only warped deniers blinded by their love of a moribund ideology and worship of a man dead for 71 years make a big deal about a shower.
I resent the implication that I hate Germans. I have nothing against Germany or Germans, frankly, from what I understand most Germans show a great deal more sense than you. Most of them reject National Socialism as a warped ideology created by a pathetic loner that is best forgotten.

David wrote:The twisted logic of the Believer's is shown in SM's comment,
"Prisoners were rarely taken for bathing after being admitted to the camp, and epidemic disease was rampant at Majdanek, affecting many Camp SS. The bathhouses were a minimal measure taken mainly with prisoners coming into the camp to abate the deplorable conditions a bit. Berg's term, which you've cadged, is meant to prettify the nature of a KL and in this case also meant to deceive about the uses of the complex which included the gas chambers in the bunkers. Full stop."

Translation- "The bath Center was not for saving lives... and the Germans should have used it more." :roll: :roll:


Uh, no. Disease was rampant in ALL the camps, not just Majdanek. The SS brought this on because of the condition they left the prisoners in.


David wrote:Again, thanks to the Revisionist Scholars who brought this important piece of
evidence to light.


That always cracks me up. "Revisionist scholars." What a hoot.

:lol:

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I still can't figure out what G&M mean by Barrack XIIA


Seems they're labeling no. 41 plus bunker that^, but it might be one of their misleading little weirdnesses. If one looks at the August 1942 blueprint for the bunker and canopy roof, that's labeled XIIA.

The two B&D's butting on to (or rather, reaching under) the canopy each are labeled XII, and which seems that would make them the mentioned "BW/Bauwerk XII"?
.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:16 am

David's now trying to interrupt a fruitful discussion. Lord knows, I don't have the sources, or temperament, to work out the construction plans, phase, and time line in detail, and we've all been unclear on a number of the details. So BRoI's post is very helpful (teeth gritted) and I suggest we stick with this discussion and let David be David.
. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

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Revisionist Scholar......

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:22 am

David wrote:Again, thanks to the Revisionist Scholars who brought this important piece of evidence to light.
output_agq4tQ.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:25 am

:lol: That one cracks me up royally. One of your very best ones, Matthew!
.

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Re: Revisionist Scholar......

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote:Again, thanks to the Revisionist Scholars who brought this important piece of evidence to light.
output_agq4tQ.gif


:lol:

:lol:

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Re: Revisionist Scholar......

Postby Xcalibur » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote:Again, thanks to the Revisionist Scholars who brought this important piece of evidence to light.
output_agq4tQ.gif



Mr. Ellard, we are talking "stupid" here not deranged :lol:

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
BRoI wrote:The judgment does indeed make this assertion [JuNSV 44:404], shorty after it claimed that both the CO & ZB gas chambers were inside [Im Inneren] the bathing barrack! [403]. So the post-war modifications that connected B&D1 with the bunker were passed off as an original part of the facility to the German court!

Do you have a quotation on this? I don't have the judgment and am curious as to what's said?

I think I recall reading something similar but would have to find it. But...

Having studied and discussed the August 1942 blueprint for some time now, it would appear that plan called for some type of enclosure around the "unclean" area south of the bunker and north of B&Ds 41 and 42. The print is poor in areas, but I see only gates from the west and south into that area, and north-pointing arrows marking the access from barracks 41 and 42 - making bunker and B&Ds essentially a 'closed in unit'?


.

Lard, save me from your followers.


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