Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

What you think about how you think.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Fab Yolis » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:48 am

Relinquish85 wrote:Nothingness is certainly a name we can give to the Ultimate Reality. Strictly speaking, It doesn't have a name, because whatever we do call It seems to exclude whatever we don't call It. We CAN say what It ISN'T, and that's 'something'.


So you agree that your "Ultimately Reality" doesn't in fact exist, then.

All 'things' in the universe (all of which are emergent) 'ONLY appear to be present because of the erroneous perception of an observer'. They are ALL illusory.


I just debunked this ridiculous baseless assertion. Those water droplets refract photons REGARDLESS of whether or how anyone perceives them.

I would say that the correct definition of a 'thing' would be a 'solely self-inclusive form'. That is to say, a form that doesn't include in itself any other forms that lie beyond it's physical boundaries.


In other words, a particular form is not other particular forms. Thank you for that amazing insight.

Certain 'external' forms directly contribute to the existence of (and so, are included by) a particular form which would not exist AT ALL without their contribution, and all of those external contributer forms require their own external contributor forms in order to exist, which in turn contribute to the existence of and are included by the particular form in question. And so it goes, ad infinitum.

So there are no real 'solely self-inclusive forms' (a.k.a. things) in Reality. As Alan Watts said, "A thing is a think".


Then a thing is NOT in fact a "solely self-inclusive form", is it. All you've done here is invent a Straw-Man definition of "thing" just so that you can then dismiss that definition as an ill-conceived means to prop up a nonsensical argument.

The fact is that any given form in the universe mutually includes ALL other forms in the universe. This fact is effectively hidden from view by thought.


Wrong. Any given form is capable of interaction with any other form in the universe, but this is NOT the same as saying that any form *includes* all other forms.

In truth, it's all one, and that one isn't 'something'.


It's not nothing either, by definition.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:14 am

It's no good - I have to stop reading this thread. Every time I look at the title, I read 'Universal Orgasm'. That's not a bad concept at all, but it makes extracting any sense out of the discussion difficult.

I shouldn't have mentioned it, because it's actually infectious.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:58 am

I thought the same thing.....................but controlled myself....................... for the betterment of all mankind.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:42 pm

Poodle wrote:It's no good - I have to stop reading this thread. Every time I look at the title, I read 'Universal Orgasm'. That's not a bad concept at all, but it makes extracting any sense out of the discussion difficult.

I shouldn't have mentioned it, because it's actually infectious.

I've been reading it that way too, since the op.

Then I read some posts and wind up shaking my head in disappointment.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Nonpareil » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:05 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:I just debunked this ridiculous baseless assertion. Those water droplets refract photons REGARDLESS of whether or how anyone perceives them.


Ah, but you've fallen into one of the classic blunders. The most famous is "never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less known is this: never go in against a Buddhist when rationality is on the line.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:11 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Nothingness is certainly a name we can give to the Ultimate Reality. Strictly speaking, It doesn't have a name, because whatever we do call It seems to exclude whatever we don't call It. We CAN say what It ISN'T, and that's 'something'.


So you agree that your "Ultimately Reality" doesn't in fact exist, then.

All 'things' in the universe (all of which are emergent) 'ONLY appear to be present because of the erroneous perception of an observer'. They are ALL illusory.


I just debunked this ridiculous baseless assertion. Those water droplets refract photons REGARDLESS of whether or how anyone perceives them.

I would say that the correct definition of a 'thing' would be a 'solely self-inclusive form'. That is to say, a form that doesn't include in itself any other forms that lie beyond it's physical boundaries.


In other words, a particular form is not other particular forms. Thank you for that amazing insight.

Certain 'external' forms directly contribute to the existence of (and so, are included by) a particular form which would not exist AT ALL without their contribution, and all of those external contributer forms require their own external contributor forms in order to exist, which in turn contribute to the existence of and are included by the particular form in question. And so it goes, ad infinitum.

So there are no real 'solely self-inclusive forms' (a.k.a. things) in Reality. As Alan Watts said, "A thing is a think".


Then a thing is NOT in fact a "solely self-inclusive form", is it. All you've done here is invent a Straw-Man definition of "thing" just so that you can then dismiss that definition as an ill-conceived means to prop up a nonsensical argument.

The fact is that any given form in the universe mutually includes ALL other forms in the universe. This fact is effectively hidden from view by thought.


Wrong. Any given form is capable of interaction with any other form in the universe, but this is NOT the same as saying that any form *includes* all other forms.

In truth, it's all one, and that one isn't 'something'.


It's not nothing either, by definition.


Fundamentally, there are no water droplets or photons. They are themselves emergent. Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

Reality Itself is That which NEVER emerged, and so, It will NEVER 'submerge'. Reality is the Eternal Infinity. The universe naturally emerges as one from That.

Now, relatively speaking, whether or not it is realized, whenever a 'thing' is being referred to, a 'solely self-inclusive form' is being referred to. It isn't a Straw Man definition. It's the CORRECT definition.There is no form that does not require the presence of other forms in order for it to exist, and so in this sense, every form REALLY DOES include all other forms. They all go together as one. As such, there are no 'things'. Never has been, never will be.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by TJrandom » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:05 pm

When are we going to get back OT and discuss this Universal Orgasm?

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:55 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:They are themselves emergent. Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent.

I'm not totally sure here and should be checked with both a physicist AND a linguist, but I'm pretty sure that "emergent properties" are more complex than the simpler context/assemblage from which they appear. A back eddy in the swirl of cosmic expansion providing a temporary decrease in entropy? ((Hah, hah==said to the boy salad))

"emergent" doesn't mean the same thing as part of "emergent properties" as it does in your use of "arising after the Big Bang."

I would forgive you for that, if not for all the preceding BS. Instead, it is demonstrative of your basic error: not defining if even understanding the words and concepts you blood splatter forth.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:01 pm

TJrandom wrote:When are we going to get back OT and discuss this Universal Orgasm?

When we reach the climax.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:46 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

Reality Itself is That which NEVER emerged, and so, It will NEVER 'submerge'.

If you're going to go that route, then all you're doing is redefining the term "reality" to mean "whatever doesn't actually exist", and I'm not sure you're going to find any buyers for that definition here.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Nonpareil » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:06 pm

Gord wrote:If you're going to go that route, then all you're doing is redefining the term "reality" to mean "whatever doesn't actually exist", and I'm not sure you're going to find any buyers for that definition here.


His entire "idea" is just a mess of poorly-defined - and sometimes entirely undefined - terms masquerading as profundity.

Unfortunately for him, I don't think I'm the only one here with no patience for word games.
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Flash » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:43 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:
Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

How the {!#%@} do you know this? And you are convinced that you are talking about the real, cross your heart, poke in the eye (or something like that) "fundamental stuff of the Universe? What? Some universal spook in the sky tells you secrets?

Or did you actually go some place and grabbed a handful of the universal stuff and then said to yourself with total amazement no less; {!#%@}, tis' the fundamental stuff of the Universe. I've got to get back and write about it on the Skeptics forum. And so you have. :mrgreen:
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:49 pm

Gord wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

Reality Itself is That which NEVER emerged, and so, It will NEVER 'submerge'.

If you're going to go that route, then all you're doing is redefining the term "reality" to mean "whatever doesn't actually exist", and I'm not sure you're going to find any buyers for that definition here.


That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm correctly defining Reality Itself (the Absolute) as That which is not finite or temporary, simply because whatever is finite and temporary can never be as 'present' as That.

Nothingness is not the absence of Reality. It is the 'pure presence' of causeless, boundless Reality, which is fundamentally devoid of 'things'.

Everything is the natural effect of Nothing, but upon close (philosophical) inspection, it is discovered that Everything and Nothing are 'not two'.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:54 pm

Flash wrote:Relinquish85 wrote:
Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

How the {!#%@} do you know this? And you are convinced that you are talking about the real, cross your heart, poke in the eye (or something like that) "fundamental stuff of the Universe? What? Some universal spook in the sky tells you secrets?

Or did you actually go some place and grabbed a handful of the universal stuff and then said to yourself with total amazement no less; {!#%@}, tis' the fundamental stuff of the Universe. I've got to get back and write about it on the Skeptics forum. And so you have. :mrgreen:


I don't claim to know WHAT the most fundamental stuff is (or rather, what name physicists will ultimately give to what they BELIEVE is the most fundamental stuff). All I'm saying is that, whatever it is, it is STILL an emergent phenomenon.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:02 pm

Relinquish85 wrote:... I don't claim to know WHAT the most fundamental stuff is (or rather, what name physicists will ultimately give to what they BELIEVE is the most fundamental stuff). All I'm saying is that, whatever it is, it is STILL an emergent phenomenon.


Hang on ... most fundamental ... emergent ...

Arising from what, exactly? Is there something more fundamental than fundamental in your universe?

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Relinquish85 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:33 pm

Poodle wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:... I don't claim to know WHAT the most fundamental stuff is (or rather, what name physicists will ultimately give to what they BELIEVE is the most fundamental stuff). All I'm saying is that, whatever it is, it is STILL an emergent phenomenon.


Hang on ... most fundamental ... emergent ...

Arising from what, exactly? Is there something more fundamental than fundamental in your universe?


Finite and temporary Form (the most fundamental stuff) naturally emerges from and dissolves back into infinite, eternal Emptiness (the fundamental Reality). There was no 'first' time this happened, and there will be no 'last' time it will happen.

Emptiness is absolute symmetry, Form is absolute asymmetry.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Poodle » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:41 pm

No - can't see this. If eternal Emptiness is fundamental, then nothing coming out of it can be fundamental. No - I said that wrong. Nothing can't be fundamental.

Is something emerges from anything, then its only the anything which is fundamental. That doesn't mean that ANYTHING can be fundamental, only the anything that didn't come out of anything else. It's fundamental.

See?

No, you don't. You cannot redefine fundamental to mean whatever suits your purpose. Fundamental, by definition, cannot mean emergent.

And before you go around claiming that emptiness is absolutely symmetric, please establish where the line of symmetry is drawn. Diagrams would be helpful.

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Nonpareil » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:04 am

Relinquish85 wrote:
Flash wrote:Relinquish85 wrote:
Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

How the {!#%@} do you know this? And you are convinced that you are talking about the real, cross your heart, poke in the eye (or something like that) "fundamental stuff of the Universe? What? Some universal spook in the sky tells you secrets?

Or did you actually go some place and grabbed a handful of the universal stuff and then said to yourself with total amazement no less; {!#%@}, tis' the fundamental stuff of the Universe. I've got to get back and write about it on the Skeptics forum. And so you have. :mrgreen:


I don't claim to know WHAT the most fundamental stuff is (or rather, what name physicists will ultimately give to what they BELIEVE is the most fundamental stuff). All I'm saying is that, whatever it is, it is STILL an emergent phenomenon.


Does not answer the question. Your claim of emergence from nothingness is bare assertion, in addition to being a complete mess of undefined and misused terms, and is therefore discarded.

Relinquish85 wrote:Finite and temporary Form (the most fundamental stuff) naturally emerges from and dissolves back into infinite, eternal Emptiness (the fundamental Reality). There was no 'first' time this happened, and there will be no 'last' time it will happen.


Bare assertion and more failures of definition, in addition to the problem of infinite regress. Discarded.

Relinquish85 wrote:Emptiness is absolute symmetry, Form is absolute asymmetry.


Gibberish. Discarded.

Come back when you have something to actually say.
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"No," said Granny. "I ain't. And stars don't care what you wish, and magic don't make things better, and no one doesn't get burned who sticks their hand in a fire. If you want to amount to anything as a witch, Magrat Garlick, you've got to learn three things: what's real, what's not real, and what's the difference."

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:57 am

Relinquish85 wrote:
Gord wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.

Reality Itself is That which NEVER emerged, and so, It will NEVER 'submerge'.

If you're going to go that route, then all you're doing is redefining the term "reality" to mean "whatever doesn't actually exist", and I'm not sure you're going to find any buyers for that definition here.


That's not what I'm doing at all.

Yes it is.

I'm correctly defining Reality Itself (the Absolute) as That which is not finite or temporary

Exactly. You're redefining the term "reality" to mean "whatever doesn't actually exist".

Nothingness is not the absence of Reality. It is the 'pure presence' of causeless, boundless Reality, which is fundamentally devoid of 'things'.

Nothingness can be defined many ways, depending on the purpose that leads one to define it. For instance, nothingness is the state of nonexistence. Reality is the state of things as they actually exist. In this sense, they are opposing states.

Everything is the natural effect of Nothing, but upon close (philosophical) inspection, it is discovered that Everything and Nothing are 'not two'.

Rubbish. Now you're redefining the words "everything" and "nothing" just so you can make some weird BS statement that you can pretend is meaningful. You're doing nothing that the random Deepak Chopra quote generator can't do:

"Quantum physics expresses the light of experiences."
"Awareness is beyond ephemeral chaos."
"Your body compliments positive human observation."

See?
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Gord » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:46 am

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by Fab Yolis » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:48 am

Relinquish85 wrote:
Fundamentally, there are no water droplets or photons. They are themselves emergent. Even THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL stuff in the universe is emergent. Even the universe itself is emergent.


In other words, the concept of "fundamental" is devoid of meaning according to you.

Reality Itself is That which NEVER emerged, and so, It will NEVER 'submerge'. Reality is the Eternal Infinity. The universe naturally emerges as one from That.


Is this the same "Reality" which you have equated with non-existence? How can you demonstrate that the universe emerges from non-existence?

Now, relatively speaking, whether or not it is realized, whenever a 'thing' is being referred to, a 'solely self-inclusive form' is being referred to. It isn't a Straw Man definition. It's the CORRECT definition.


No, it's a stupid, ad-hoc and poorly thought out definition. Show me ONE dictionary or philosophical source which defines "thing" the way you have here.

There is no form that does not require the presence of other forms in order for it to exist, and so in this sense, every form REALLY DOES include all other forms. They all go together as one. As such, there are no 'things'. Never has been, never will be.


Re-stating your baseless assertions in capital letters will not make them any more credible. You are making an unjustified logical leap by equating interdependence with identity. Things can be usefully identified as things precisely because they don't all "go together as one"!
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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by sandisk » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:55 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Hey guys! :)

You are aware. 


Are "you" aware, or is "you" an object within awareness?

You perceive 'ever-changing form'.


Ever-changing form is perceived.

You seem to be (or have) a particular body/mind. However, isn't this body/mind that you seem to be (or have) just another part of the 'ever-changing form' that is 'perceived' by what You are?


FIFY.

Because 'ever-changing form' is 'the perceived', NO part of it at all (such as ANY body/mind, ANY subpart or 'owner' thereof, or ANYTHING else) can actually BE what You are (that is, a 'perceiver').

That is to say, in truth, to be able to perceive is to be unable to be perceived, because to be able to be perceived is to be unable to perceive.

Therefore, AS a 'perceiver', You are absolutely changeless and formless.


This doesn't follow. Why is the ever-changing not capable of perception?


As such, in truth, You have no location or edge, and so You do not begin or end. You are infinite and eternal, as the One unthreatenable Emptiness itself.


Doesn't this claim render the very concept of "you" meaningless?

You are Pure Awareness; the one and only Perceiver that ever TRULY exists.


Except when "you" are unconscious or asleep...

The ultimately singular ever-changing form known as 'the universe' is in fact Your only REAL Organism, and as such is an inseparable aspect of Your Being.


I think you've put the cart before the horse here (or in this case, the person before the universe).

It gets it's characteristic asymmetrical structure simply from the fact that it is essentially the inseperable opposite of Your ever-changless and formless Awareness, which is, by it's very nature, perfectly symmetrical. Yet, in order to be coherent enough to be perceived at all, It naturally has a 'fractal' organization to It's perfectly asymmetrical form.


This doesn't follow either.

ALL apparent 'things' and 'events' are as they are simply because they are all 'parts' of this one Universal Organism.


Aside from the unnecessary use of the term "Universal Organism" instead of "universe", all you're offering here is a trivial tautological idea that "things are what they are because that's what they are".

Some of the 'nerve ends' of the Organism are of such an extreme level of physical complexity that they have the natural capacity to become 'hypnotized' by their surroundings. This hypnosis makes it seem to these 'nerve ends' (a.k.a. inteligent life forms) as if there is a uniquely isolated, finite and temporary consciousness functioning within each one of them, which in turn gives rise to the illusion that they are the autonomous originators of their own particular movements.


Again with the unwarranted use of the term "Organism" instead of simply saying "universe". Are you saying that there is no scope for free will?

As such, the absolute harmony that naturally exists between all the 'parts' of the Organism (and therefore, the Organism itself) is impossible to be seen by these hypnotized nerve ends. In it's place is seen a situation that seems confusingly fragmented, hostile and threatening. Seeing this, the hypnotized nerve ends are bound to suffer.

But this harmony certainly IS Here and Now, outside of the hypnosis, ever-patiently awaiting 'our' realization of (and resting in) it.


Sure, if you also want to stretch the definition of "harmony" to the point of meaninglessness.

In this resting, there can be no suffering.


I doubt there can be any motivation to do anything either.


lol, "object within awareness" . You sound like these hippie neo advaita BS, obviously you are the entity which is aware of (the subjective consciousness). You are not an "object within awareness". You are an "object within your consciousness'

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Re: Pure Awareness and the Universal Organism

Post by mirror93 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:52 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Relinquish85 wrote:Hey guys! :)

You are aware. 

Are "you" aware, or is "you" an object within awareness?


lol, following sandisk post, I'm pretty sure you are aware, wtf "object within awareness" even means? :?:
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