What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
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landrew
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:36 am

joewilly wrote:I assume that you think that a massage should be paid by health insurance. I do. It makes me feel healthy in body and soul. However, this would open the door to anything. Cosmetic surgery is not covered by insurance. So why would this be any different than an alternative service?

Health insurance is always a choice, sometimes the choice is made by the individual and sometimes by the society. You can buy insurance for almost anything, but when you can't afford it, you just take the risk of having to bear the cost yourself, or do without.

I happen to think its reasonable to allocate a reasonable share of one's earnings to healthcare. You should be able to buy that which you can afford. The more you contribute, the more you get to claim. If you can only afford the basics, the basics are all you should receive.

It's not very complicated as I see it.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:02 am

cosmetic surgery is a covered benefit in nys if you are a teacher

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:28 am

talk about missing the point again and changing the conversation into a blind rant about the benefits of manipulation of the neck - there are alot of opinions set forth here but little fact

fact: neck manipulation is and will continue to be done by chiropractors, PT's and DO's now and in the future, it is an accepted treatment for certain conditions - especially stiffness in the joints active and passive ranges of motion

fact: neck manipulation when done correctly will have as much risk of injury or less as many other commonly accepted procedures

fact: neck manipulation candidates should be thoroughly screened for risk factors that would preclude them from this type of therapy

fact: people will present with no signs of impending stroke or signs that are common to other problems - when diagnosing a patient we do not have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight - so all doctors and therapists do the best they can with the information available and make the best decisions they can to help the patient with the tools that they have available

cut these guys some slack - all you guys act like armchair quarterbacks and coaches - you always think that you are smarter and would have called a better play

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby joewilly » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:42 am

If cosmetic surgery is a benefit in NY, why are there so many ugly teachers there? I think you are thinking of reconstructive surgery, which is very different.

As for neck manipulation, facts are in the eye of the beholder. There are no studies to show that back manipulation is beneficial in the long run. In fact, most studies show that nothing other than time really gives positive results. MRI's and X-rays (particularly Chiropractic x-rays showing subluxation) are rarely consistent with the complaints of the patient.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:49 am

mri's and x-rays in general with all mechanical neck pain are rarely consistant with the patient complaints - that is why they should not be used to diagnose mechanical neck pain - motion x-ray would potentially give better results providing you could move the patient through the complete range of the joint you are looking at - still would not give you an evaluation of the passive movement that is available at the end of the active range of motion

x-ray and mri should only be used as a screening tool if certain red flags come up - look it up on the insurance company web sites - it's all there as far as what is clinically appropriate

and yes i know the difference - cosmetic surgery - ie facelifts, boob and nose jobs are a covered benefit with the teachers here


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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:52 am

[quote][Manipulative treatment is indicated if there is a movement restriction or a
blockage of a joint or a spinal mobile segment, and this treatment is considered
relevant to the patient’s symptoms. If the movement restriction is severe, and
there is much pain and muscle spasm, manual therapy techniques including spinal
manipulation thrust technique may be used as recommended in clinical practice
guidelines as the treatment of choice.

Evidence-based medicine shows that spinal manipulation for a select group of
patients with sub-acute low back pain and neck pain is a beneficial and costeffective
treatment. Most of these studies were performed by physical therapists.

For over 70 years, physical therapists have been educated and trained to practice
manual therapy, including spinal manipulation thrust technique. In fact, the
literature supporting the use of manipulation by physical therapists dates back to
1928./quote]

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:54 am

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/full/80/8/820

another PT fighting for the right to do evil , stroke producing manipulation

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:57 am

the honorable opposition wrote:http://www.ptwa.org/pdfs_misc/ManipulationTalkingPoints_5-09.pdf

Propaganda put out by the WA state PTA? What is this - free advertising space? :?

I'm pretty sure you have been previously asked to submit peer-reviewed, evidence-based, scientific studies that support your claims. This hardly counts for anything other than a giggle. :lol:
Many Washington physical therapy school graduates leave our state because of
the spinal manipulation prohibition; they are concerned that they cannot practice
to the evidence-based standard of care. As a result, Washington taxpayers are
supporting physical therapy students at the two state universities who may end up
leaving Washington.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:02 am

Reprehensible for doctors to seek to pad their pockets by campaigning to outlaw alternative medicine. Adequate laws exist to protect patients from fraud and malpractice.

It's not for doctors to defend their turf by hurling fraud allegations at those who threaten to do a better job than themselves.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:09 am

once again the paper towel guy misses the point

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:10 am

Please watch these before spreading falsehoods:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEngMoCJ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl_hKmBd ... re=channel

The presenter is not a Physician...

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby joewilly » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:30 am

quote]not by someone who feels their turf threatened by someone providing a competing, alternative service.[/quote] then I am given a self serving statement by physical therapists in Wahington.

One needs to look to the source. Follow the money The issue is not appropriate medical care, but can someone pay for it. If it was handled no different than massage therapy, the market would decide. Anyone will get one lousy massage, but 10 or 20 will not occur if the individual is paying. On the other hand, massage for free, it becomes less critical as to the quality.

Certainly cosmetic surgeons are not any better at looking for the dollar, they have to jump thru more hoops. The web is full of "how-to" examples.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:51 am

brauneyz wrote:... I'm pretty sure you have been previously asked to submit peer-reviewed, evidence-based, scientific studies that support your claims. ...
Yes, indeed; but he only comes up with quack "literature" or concerning non-chiropractors in legit lit. All of the claims I make now have previously been supported in this thread by references to good literature; which I don't wish to retrieve again. That includes a retrospective survey (75 years) showing that, for all strokes directly after neck manipulation, only 2% are caused by PT. That is pretty amazing considering that PTs outnumber chiros 10:1. What it means is that PTs are smarter about whose necks they choose to manipulate, and better at the practice.

There are advertisements on YouTube with chiropractors proudly twisting people's necks with a dying strain (pun intended). In their own news magazine (Dynamic Chiropractic) there was an article about chiros who advertise that they don't snap necks to cause strokes. The article decried those ads as "eating their own"- as if safer practice is a bad thing.

Then there is the problem of what term to use "manipulation" or "adjustment" ("mobilization" seems better defined). Chiros used to call their work "adjustment" and that gave rise to the turf war in Arkansas where the chiros successfully sued a PT for performing an adjustment instead of manipulation. Today, chiros often use all the terms interchangeably because that allows them to point to legit literature on PT and say that is evidence for what they do; but they clearly are not as well-trained as PTs. Also, "adjustment" seems to have developed a bad reputation such that a recent promo video from Palmer College used the term "treatment" instead.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:30 pm

JJM wrote:
brauneyz wrote:... I'm pretty sure you have been previously asked to submit peer-reviewed, evidence-based, scientific studies that support your claims. ...
Yes, indeed; but he only comes up with quack "literature" or concerning non-chiropractors in legit lit. All of the claims I make now have previously been supported in this thread by references to good literature; which I don't wish to retrieve again. That includes a retrospective survey (75 years) showing that, for all strokes directly after neck manipulation, only 2% are caused by PT. That is pretty amazing considering that PTs outnumber chiros 10:1. What it means is that PTs are smarter about whose necks they choose to manipulate, and better at the practice.

It's also misleading, because PTs are manipulating far fewer necks than Chiros. Suddenly that 2% looks a lot more dangerous, considering that chiros do that all day long, and PTs do it more rarely. All in all, it's probably a lot safer to let a chiro do the twisting, as they are much more familiar with the practice.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:51 pm

landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:[... That includes a retrospective survey (75 years) showing that, for all strokes directly after neck manipulation, only 2% are caused by PT. That is pretty amazing considering that PTs outnumber chiros 10:1. What it means is that PTs are smarter about whose necks they choose to manipulate, and better at the practice.

It's also misleading, because PTs are manipulating far fewer necks than Chiros. Suddenly that 2% looks a lot more dangerous, considering that chiros do that all day long, and PTs do it more rarely. All in all, it's probably a lot safer to let a chiro do the twisting, as they are much more familiar with the practice.
Huh?

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:15 pm

landrew wrote:
JJM wrote:
brauneyz wrote:... I'm pretty sure you have been previously asked to submit peer-reviewed, evidence-based, scientific studies that support your claims. ...
Yes, indeed; but he only comes up with quack "literature" or concerning non-chiropractors in legit lit. All of the claims I make now have previously been supported in this thread by references to good literature; which I don't wish to retrieve again. That includes a retrospective survey (75 years) showing that, for all strokes directly after neck manipulation, only 2% are caused by PT. That is pretty amazing considering that PTs outnumber chiros 10:1. What it means is that PTs are smarter about whose necks they choose to manipulate, and better at the practice.

It's also misleading, because PTs are manipulating far fewer necks than Chiros. Suddenly that 2% looks a lot more dangerous, considering that chiros do that all day long, and PTs do it more rarely. All in all, it's probably a lot safer to let a chiro do the twisting, as they are much more familiar with the practice.


A search for 'fatal neck manipulations by a geisha' resulted in no hits at all. Clearly, if you want a neck manipulation, visit a geisha.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:24 am

[quote][Yes, indeed; but he only comes up with quack "literature" or concerning non-chiropractors in legit lit. All of the claims I make now have previously been supported in this thread by references to good literature; which I don't wish to retrieve again. That includes a retrospective survey (75 years) showing that, for all strokes directly after neck manipulation, only 2% are caused by PT. That is pretty amazing considering that PTs outnumber chiros 10:1. What it means is that PTs are smarter about whose necks they choose to manipulate, and better at the practice.
/quote]

oh brother, big assumptions and reaches here.
how can PT's be smarter and better when very few do it, a friend of mine who is a manual therapy fellow (pt who does manual therapy) says that less than 5% of the pt's do manipulation and most do it poorly - anedotal yes but interesting coming from the smarter and batter Pt's

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:34 am

Then there is the problem of what term to use "manipulation" or "adjustment" ("mobilization" seems better defined). Chiros used to call their work "adjustment" and that gave rise to the turf war in Arkansas where the chiros successfully sued a PT for performing an adjustment instead of manipulation. Today, chiros often use all the terms interchangeably because that allows them to point to legit literature on PT and say that is evidence for what they do; but they clearly are not as well-trained as PTs. Also, "adjustment" seems to have developed a bad reputation such that a recent promo video from Palmer College used the term "treatment" instead.


ok, so what is the difference between anadjustment, and a manipulation?
How are the chiro's "clearly not as well trained as the PT's"?
Is this your opinion or a fact you can back up? and if it is an opinion - what background do you have to substantiate a valid opinion?

So if Palmer College calls it a Chiropractic Treatment instead of a Chiropractic Adjustment - this changes something?? anything?

If I call a car an automobile it's still a car.

JjM is an expert of reading something into nothing and twisting articles to suit his purpose. Glad you are on this board - at least for the entertainment value if not for the substance.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:07 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
If I call a car an automobile it's still a car.

A label is just a label.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:23 am

the honorable opposition wrote:JjM is an expert of reading something into nothing and twisting articles to suit his purpose. Glad you are on this board - at least for the entertainment value if not for the substance.

Jeeeeez, you don't have to twist his head off!

tee hee hee!
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:41 am

sorry, from past history, JJm doesn't understand subtle and his social skill level doesn't allow him to be courteous to others - blunt and to the point seems to be the only way to make a point with him and even that works rarely

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:59 pm

"Twist his head off."

Is joke.

Should to be laughink now.

==> :lol:
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:19 pm

Gord wrote:"Twist his head off."

Is joke.

Should to be laughink now.

==> :lol:

Decapitation is always funny :lol:

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:33 pm

End of an Era: FCER Decides on Self-Liquidation
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpac ... p?id=54144

FCER is the Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research. Founded in 1943, "Over the foundation's history, volunteers contributed more than 33,000 articles and helped fund over 152 randomized, controlled trials concerning chiropractic manipulation ..." So, why are chiros arguing, today, that they have no research that definitively supports their claims because of a lack of money? Even the claims to treat acute, low back pain are a bit shaky (according to the latest Cochrane review, which requires a subscription in most of the USA).

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:58 am

An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.

Some day, we'll be thankful that not everyone in the healthcare field was totally subverted by Big Pharma to sacrifice human health for the sake of massive profits.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:32 am

landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.
I know you cannot support that assertion. In fact, it was the medical profession that noticed the problem of resistance shortly after penicillin was introduced into widespread use during WW2.

landrew wrote:Some day, we'll be thankful that not everyone in the healthcare field was totally subverted by Big Pharma to sacrifice human health for the sake of massive profits.
Are you thankful that Big Chiro and Big Supple are making massive profits off snake oil?

If you can't understand; maybe it's you: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

ETA: AltMed proponents are driven by profits as much as anyone, and profits from CAM are very high since there is no research or quality control. Read Dan Hurley’s book “Natural Causes” (Broadway Books, 2006)- the title refers to people who are seriously harmed, even killed, by “natural” treatments. He documents the fact that the herb ephedra was killing people; but the manufacturers were making so much money that they preferred to pay the survivors rather than take it off the market. That went on for around a decade.

Rose Shapiro’s book “Suckers: How Alternative Medicine Makes Fools of Us All” is also very good. The author is a journalist, not tied to medicine or AltMed.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:51 pm

JJM wrote:
landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.
I know you cannot support that assertion. In fact, it was the medical profession that noticed the problem of resistance shortly after penicillin was introduced into widespread use during WW2.

landrew wrote:Some day, we'll be thankful that not everyone in the healthcare field was totally subverted by Big Pharma to sacrifice human health for the sake of massive profits.
Are you thankful that Big Chiro and Big Supple are making massive profits off snake oil?

If you can't understand; maybe it's you: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

ETA: AltMed proponents are driven by profits as much as anyone, and profits from CAM are very high since there is no research or quality control. Read Dan Hurley’s book “Natural Causes” (Broadway Books, 2006)- the title refers to people who are seriously harmed, even killed, by “natural” treatments. He documents the fact that the herb ephedra was killing people; but the manufacturers were making so much money that they preferred to pay the survivors rather than take it off the market. That went on for around a decade.

Rose Shapiro’s book “Suckers: How Alternative Medicine Makes Fools of Us All” is also very good. The author is a journalist, not tied to medicine or AltMed.

That looks like a well-heeled piece of Big Pharma propaganda.

Lumping together known fraudsters with a legitimate group is a well-known smear tactic.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:01 pm

landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.


May I intervene, fellas? :D

Landrew, I would also like further explanation on this. I know a few MD's who have maintained for decades the dangers of overuse of antibiotics. But I've never heard, seen, or read that chiros got the jump on that info and warned them. Could you point me in that direction?

Thanks, in advance.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:01 pm

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.


May I intervene, fellas? :D

Landrew, I would also like further explanation on this. I know a few MD's who have maintained for decades the dangers of overuse of antibiotics. But I've never heard, seen, or read that chiros got the jump on that info and warned them. Could you point me in that direction?

Thanks, in advance.

Yeah, those doctors were listening to the chiropractors.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:03 pm

landrew wrote:Yeah, those doctors were listening to the chiropractors.

That's it? :?

I'll let it go, as you sort of made my point, but I suspect JJ won't be so forgiving.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:08 pm

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.
... I've never heard, seen, or read that chiros got the jump on that info ...
Stuart B. Levy "The Antibiotic Paradox" 2nd ed. (Perseus, 2002) p. 7 notes that penicillin's discoverer (Alexander Fleming, not a chiropractor) warned about overuse causing resistance in 1945.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:19 pm

JJM wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.
... I've never heard, seen, or read that chiros got the jump on that info ...
Stuart B. Levy "The Antibiotic Paradox" 2nd ed. (Perseus, 2002) p. 7 notes that penicillin's discoverer (Alexander Fleming, not a chiropractor) warned about overuse causing resistance in 1945.

JJ, I'm a little confused by your post. My position is that traditional MD's have known about the resistance effect for decades (my source easily goes back to ~1960.) I think you and I are roughly in agreement here.

I've been unable to find anything so far to substantiate Landrew's claim that they 'learned' it from chiros.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:39 pm

brauneyz wrote:
JJM wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:An honest doctor will tell you that the chiropractors warned them years ago that the overuse of antibiotics would lead to serious problems with antibiotic resistance.
... I've never heard, seen, or read that chiros got the jump on that info ...
Stuart B. Levy "The Antibiotic Paradox" 2nd ed. (Perseus, 2002) p. 7 notes that penicillin's discoverer (Alexander Fleming, not a chiropractor) warned about overuse causing resistance in 1945.

JJ, I'm a little confused by your post. My position is that traditional MD's have known about the resistance effect for decades (my source easily goes back to ~1960.) I think you and I are roughly in agreement here.

I've been unable to find anything so far to substantiate Landrew's claim that they 'learned' it from chiros.
And you won't. Sorry, my point is that the warning about resistance came from a medical researcher (1945) shortly after penicillin came into widespread use during WW2 (one can choose 1942 as the beginning). Therefore, no chiropractors were involved. Even if they opposed it, along with all drugs, in 1942, none of them have the education to come to that conclusion before medical researchers noticed it. Indeed, I am sure the medical people were sadly surprised to find it during the course of their research.

One way to infer that chiropractors could not get ahead of medicine is the fact that they have introduced nothing useful in health care (besides a possibly effective treatment for low back pain of short duration).

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:06 pm

In a rare incident of self-reflection, some chiros highlighted misinformation in their business: Jaroslaw P. Grod, DC,a David Sikorski, DC,b and Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhDc "Unsubstantiated Claims in Patient Brochures From the Largest State, Provincial, and National Chiropractic Associations and Research Agencies" Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics Volume 24 • Number 8 • October 2001 pp. 514-19
Conclusion: The largest professional associations in the United States and Canada distribute patient brochures that make claims for the clinical art of chiropractic that are not currently justified by available scientific evidence or that are intrinsically untestable. These assertions are self-defeating because they reinforce an image of the chiropractic profession as functioning outside the boundaries of scientific behavior.
That is straightforward. Since the publication is not readily available, I will quote some of the objections to claims:
A prophylactic or health-maintaining effect of manipulation has not been experimentally demonstrated to date.

The value of “regular check-ups” by chiropractors is also unknown.

The effects, if any, of spinal subluxations upon athletic performance have not been scientifically validated.

The disease-producing and pathology-producing effects of subluxation-complex, if any, have not been demonstrated experimentally.

Adjusting has not been experimentally demonstrated to alter vertebral alignment or “nerve pressure”; such effects, if possible, have not been shown to influence neuritis.

Currently available experimental data do not justify any claims for the value of chiropractic care in populations of children.

The “causes of chronic pain” that may respond to manipulation have not been established.
That article fits nicely with: "Improper Claims on Chiropractic College Web Sites" http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/webclaims.html

When a chiro claims to have a chiropractic-subluxation free practice, one must ask why they spent so much time "studying" that fairy tale: Association of Chiro Colleges statement http://www.chirocolleges.org/paradig..._practice.html
Chiropractic is concerned with the preservation and restoration of health, and focuses particular attention on the subluxation.
Last edited by JJM on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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landrew
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm

Reads like it could have been copy-pasted out of the Big Pharma propaganda machine.
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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:40 pm

landrew wrote:Reads like it could have been copy-pasted out of the Big Pharma propaganda machine.
It was (mostly) copy-pasted from Big Chiro. Don't you know, JMPT is a chiro magazine and the Ass. of Chiro. Colleges represents, well, their Ass? Do continue to blather on and endeavor to provide reliable evidence. For example, you could tell us how chiros were the first to warn about antibiotic resistance. You made that claim and have not supported it.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:13 pm

More chiropractic self-criticism:

"The Unsubstantiated Web Site Claims of Chiropractic Colleges in Canada and the United States"
http://www.journalchiroed.com/2003/JCEF ... korski.pdf
Conclusion: More than half of the chiropractic colleges in Canada and the United States make unsubstantiated claims for clinical theories or methods on their Web sites. This behavior likely reflects what is taught in the schools. Chiropractors’ quest for greater legitimacy and cultural authority is retarded by this tendency. (David M. Sikorski, D.C. and Jaroslaw P. Grod, D.C., F.C.C.S.(C), The Journal of Chiropractic Education 17(2): 113–119, 2003)
Selected comments:
The meaningfulness (clinical utility) of vertebral subluxation complex and ‘‘subluxation syndrome’’ (15) have not been experimentally established. The value of adjustments in correcting subluxations has not been experimentally established. An improvement in self-healing following subluxation correction or elimination has not been experimentally demonstrated.

Chiropractic care has not been experimentally demonstrated to restore and maintain good health.

The ability of chiropractic care to strengthen ‘‘inherent recuperative powers’’ has not been experimentally demonstrated.

The existence of a ‘‘life force’’ has not been experimentally established. Panacea-like claims to benefit ‘‘almost any health condition’’ are not experimentally testable.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:12 pm

JJM wrote:More chiropractic self-criticism:

"The Unsubstantiated Web Site Claims of Chiropractic Colleges in Canada and the United States"
http://www.journalchiroed.com/2003/JCEF ... korski.pdf
Conclusion: More than half of the chiropractic colleges in Canada and the United States make unsubstantiated claims for clinical theories or methods on their Web sites. This behavior likely reflects what is taught in the schools. Chiropractors’ quest for greater legitimacy and cultural authority is retarded by this tendency. (David M. Sikorski, D.C. and Jaroslaw P. Grod, D.C., F.C.C.S.(C), The Journal of Chiropractic Education 17(2): 113–119, 2003)
Selected comments:
The meaningfulness (clinical utility) of vertebral subluxation complex and ‘‘subluxation syndrome’’ (15) have not been experimentally established. The value of adjustments in correcting subluxations has not been experimentally established. An improvement in self-healing following subluxation correction or elimination has not been experimentally demonstrated.

Chiropractic care has not been experimentally demonstrated to restore and maintain good health.

The ability of chiropractic care to strengthen ‘‘inherent recuperative powers’’ has not been experimentally demonstrated.

The existence of a ‘‘life force’’ has not been experimentally established. Panacea-like claims to benefit ‘‘almost any health condition’’ are not experimentally testable.

Self-criticism is a strength, not a weakness.

The medical profession has been often criticized for being much too lenient on the wrongdoers within their ranks when they get caught.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:13 pm

landrew wrote:Self-criticism is a strength, not a weakness.
Sure. However, along with my previous post, this shows that the core beliefs and practices promoted by chiro schools and official associations are bogus and they should know it. Try reading for meaning
Chiropractic care has not been experimentally demonstrated to restore and maintain good health.
One is left to wonder why the authors continue to call themselves chiropractors. Perhaps you don't understand enough to appreciate the implications of these articles. They confirm what I have said from the beginning- chiros cannot substantiate their claims.

landrew wrote:The medical profession has been often criticized for being much too lenient on the wrongdoers within their ranks when they get caught.
Can you say nonsequitur? Nonetheless, the situation may be worse for chiros "Canadian Justice: Breast-Fondling Chiropractor Faces “Interpersonal Skills Training”" http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=286 Medical boards are often deplorably lax and lenient; but inappropriate sexual behavior usually leads to swift, permanent license-revocation.

The topic of this thread is "What's wrong with chiropractors?" and the answer remains they defraud the public by practicing unproven and irrational treatments.


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