What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

A skeptical look at medical practices
User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:52 pm

Relevant article in recent literature:
Safety of chiropractic interventions: a systematic review.
Spine. 2009; 34(11):E405-13 (ISSN: 1528-1159)

Gouveia LO; Castanho P; Ferreira JJ
Department of Neurology, Hospital de Santa Maria, Lisbon, Portugal. lilianafog@gmail.com

STUDY DESIGN: Systematic review of reported adverse events. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the tolerability and safety of chiropractic procedures. SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: Despite the increasing popularity of chiropractic, there are few properly designed prospective controlled trials, and there is a disproportionate lack of evaluation of its safety profile. The literature reports multiple neurologic complications of spinal manipulation, some of which are clinically relevant and even life threatening. METHODS: We performed an electronic search in 2 databases: Pubmed and the Cochrane Library for the years 1966 to 2007. All articles that reported adverse reactions associated with chiropractic were included irrespective of type of design. The outcome measures were the type of adverse events associated or attributed to chiropractic interventions and their frequency. RESULTS: A total of 376 potential relevant articles were identified, 330 of which were discarded after abstract or complete article analysis. The search identified 46 articles that included data concerning adverse events: 1 randomized controlled trial, 2 case-control studies, 7 prospective studies, 12 surveys, 3 retrospective studies, and 115 case reports. Most of the adverse events reported were benign and transitory, however, there are reports of complications that were life threatening, such as arterial dissection, myelopathy, vertebral disc extrusion, and epidural hematoma. The frequency of adverse events varied between 33% and 60.9%, and the frequency of serious adverse events varied between 5 strokes/100,000 manipulations to 1.46 serious adverse events/10,000,000 manipulations and 2.68 deaths/10,000,000 manipulations. CONCLUSION: There is no robust data concerning the incidence or prevalence of adverse reactions after chiropractic. Further investigations are urgently needed to assess definite conclusions regarding this issue.


I personally disagree with the lame conclusion that ignores the risk of death and stroke, I have not read the details, but I suspect cervical manipulations were lumped together with others, thus diluting the adverse effects rate.

I was surprised that the research came from Portugal!

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:14 am

President-elect Barack Obama addresses chiropractic care in America

Dear Friends,

I am glad to have this opportunity to again share my thoughts on the role doctors of chiropractic play in the American health care system. As I have said before, doctors of chiropractic play an important role in our health care system, and my commitment to you and your patients remains strong.

As I have said, I believe steps should be taken to acknowledge the important care provided by doctors of chiropractic. We need to knock down unreasonable barriers of access and discriminatory insurance coverage so Americans in need of quality chiropractic care can access it without difficulty. We need to expand the range of
chiropractic services covered by Medicare, facilitate integration of doctors of chiropractic into the health care systems

of the Department of Veterans Affairs and Department of Defense, and allow commission of doctors of chiropractic as officers in the Commissioned Corps of the U.S. Public Health Service. And again, under my health care plan, many, if not all, chiropractic services would be included in the benefit package offered in the public plan.

America faces challenges both at home and abroad. To remain competitive, we must ensure that our health care system is accessible for every American. That is why my plan ensures quality, accessible heath care for all Americans. Doctors of chiropractic will play an important role in achieving this goal. I look forward to a strong relationship with the ACA as we build that future together.

Sincerely,
Barack Obama

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:16 am

I personally disagree with the lame conclusion that ignores the risk of death and stroke, I have not read the details, but I suspect cervical manipulations were lumped together with others, thus diluting the adverse effects rate.

I was surprised that the research came from Portugal!
skepticdoc
Valued Contributor



a personal opinion?! i thought that that was banned on this board

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:22 am

You mean CANDIDATE B. Obama

http://www.scuhs.edu/UploadedFiles/Bara ... dicare.pdf

Politicians will say anything to get elected...

He had an Internist M.D. for his care in Chicago:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/22/p ... oses_white

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:26 am

so, most people have more than one doctor.

are you implying that obama is anti dentistry, physical therapy, podiatry, chiropractic, family practice .... because he has had a relationship with an internist for 22 yrs? love the logic there!

the point is that under the obama administration the role of chiropractic in healthcare is expanding and will continue to expand apparently....... despite the rantings of skeptics

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:59 am

Does he see a chiropractor?

He promised to end the Iraq war, close Guantanamo....

Don't hold your breath, or count your chickens...

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:03 am

check your research on current healthcare trends and proposals

can't stop progress

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29090
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:00 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:so, most people have more than one doctor.

I don't. Nobody I know does. Is this another one of those "things other people think is normal" things?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:38 pm

skepticdoc wrote:Does he see a chiropractor?

He promised to end the Iraq war, close Guantanamo....

Don't hold your breath, or count your chickens...

Oh, they'll be easy enough to count once they come home to roost. :frown:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:40 am

I don't. Nobody I know does. Is this another one of those "things other people think is normal" things?


so you don't go to the dentist, wife doesn't have an ob/gyn, you don't see specialists for any reason?? good for you

the rest of us that have any health issues or have had any damage see or have seen more than one - that is why there are specialties

after my car accident there was the emergency room doc, the GP, the dentist, the oral surgeon for the broken teeth, the TMD specialist for the jaw injury, the chiropractor for the neck and lower back injury, the orthpedic surgeon for the shoulder reconstruction, the neurosurgeon for the carpal tunnel syndrome, the radiologist for the shoulder injection post surgery, the acupuncturist that was recommended by the neurosurgeon, 2 additional TMD specialists for different orthotics, 3 different PT's (yes they have doctorates) and the pain management specialist for the chronic TMD and associated headache syndromes

not to mention the IME's and insurance examination doctors

obviously I do not see all those guys still but it all had to get done so I could work and support my family

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:41 am

Oh, they'll be easy enough to count once they come home to roost.


very cryptic

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:59 am

Chiropractic Care for Active Duty Service Members Expands to 11 New Locations


Beginning this fall, 11 additional military hospitals and clinics will provide access to chiropractic services for active duty military members, reports the American Chiropractic Association (ACA).

Included in the list of sites tentatively scheduled to open on Sept. 30, 2009, are military treatment facilities located in Germany and Okinawa, Japan—marking the first time in the history of the Chiropractic Care Program that overseas active duty military members will have access to chiropractic.

“Increasing the number of military men and women with access to the essential services provided by doctors of chiropractic is an accomplishment we can all be proud of, especially with the long-over-due expansion to overseas facilities,” said ACA President Glenn D. Manceaux, DC. “Research has shown that the most common pain complaint among injured soldiers is low back pain, and let there be no doubt, doctors of chiropractic are the ideal providers to not only treat back pain, but also to help our service members prevent injuries.”

The planned expansion sites are:

Air Force
1st Special Operations Medical Group, Hurlburt Field, Fla.

Army
Irwin Army Community Hospital, Fort Riley, Kan.
Lyster Army Health Clinic, Fort Rucker, Ala.
Bayne-Jones Army Community Hospital, Fort Polk, LA
Bassett Army Community Hospital, Fort Wainwright, Alaska
Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, Germany
Grafenwoehr Army Health Clinic, Germany

Navy
Naval Health Clinic Quantico, Va.
Naval Branch Health Clinic Groton, Conn.
Naval Hospital Lemoore, Calif.
U.S. Naval Hospital, Okinawa, Japan

The 11 new locations join the 49 military clinics and hospitals currently providing chiropractic care. For a complete list of military facilities offering chiropractic care to active duty service members, visit the TRICARE Web site at www.tricare.mil/ChiropracticCare.

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:35 am

How many chiropractors are in the "MASH" units or Trauma Surgery services?











I bet none.

I rest my case.

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:26 pm

that has got to be the dumbest reply yet that i have seen on this board

why would you need a chiropractor in a surgical field hospital or in trauma surgery services? as far as i know surgery is out of their scope of practice and they are not surgical nurses

do you really think that enlisted personal only need surgical services and not other health related or rehabilitative care?

don't quit your day job

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:40 pm

i bet they don't have chinese food at steak houses either ............

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29090
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:53 am

the honorable opposition wrote:
I don't. Nobody I know does. Is this another one of those "things other people think is normal" things?


so you don't go to the dentist, wife doesn't have an ob/gyn, you don't see specialists for any reason?? good for you

Thanks! I try to stay healthy, yeah....

I do go to a dental hygienist, but she's not a doctor. I suppose technically I do have a dentist, but I haven't actually "seen" him in years, the lazy bastard. I don't think my hairstylist is a doctor either, although I could ask next time I see her. And I've had surgery, but I don't "have" a surgeon.

the rest of us that have any health issues or have had any damage see or have seen more than one - that is why there are specialties


See, this is what confuses me. Specialists are specialists, as in, not general practitioners. Do people normally "have" these things before or after they need them? If I went to my doctor and he decided I should see a neurosurgeon, he would refer me to one. But I don't "have" a neurosurgeon -- I can't just get up and go make an appointment with him whenever I want. That, to me, sounds crazy! Imagine all the useless appointments he'd have to avoid from people with the sniffles who think they're dying of brain tumours.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:58 am

Gord wrote: I don't think my hairstylist is a doctor either, although I could ask next time I see her.

You have a hairstylist? :shock:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10407
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:25 pm

brauneyz wrote:
Gord wrote: I don't think my hairstylist is a doctor either, although I could ask next time I see her.

You have a hairstylist? :shock:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


He must have. Look at all those hairs. What do you think the odds are that each one would arrange itself just so all by itself? Impossible odds, therefore there must be a design, and therefore, a designer.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:08 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
Gord wrote: I don't think my hairstylist is a doctor either, although I could ask next time I see her.

You have a hairstylist? :shock:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


He must have. Look at all those hairs. What do you think the odds are that each one would arrange itself just so all by itself? Impossible odds, therefore there must be a design, and therefore, a designer.

Intelligently stated, my dear. ;)
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29090
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 am

I'm boycotting her until she lowers her prices back down to $7 again.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:11 pm

A good article on the poor safety record of chiropractic neck manipulation http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1037

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:49 pm

Young adults with stroke symptoms are sometimes misdiagnosed in emergency rooms
February 18th, 2009 In the Misdiagnosis of Acute Stroke in the Young During Initial Presentation in the Emergency Room study, researchers reviewed data on 57 patients, ages 16 to 50 years old, enrolled since 2001 in the Young Stroke Registry at the Comprehensive Stroke Center at Wayne State University in Detroit, Mich.





Four males and four females (14 percent), average age 34, were misdiagnosed as having vertigo, migraine, alcohol intoxication or other conditions. They were discharged from the hospital and later discovered to have suffered a stroke. Those misdiagnosed included:

• an 18-year-old man who reported numbness on his left side but was diagnosed with alcohol intoxication;
• a 37-year-old woman who arrived with difficulty speaking and was diagnosed with a seizure;
• a 48-year-old woman with sudden blurred vision, an off-balance walk, lack of muscle coordination, difficulty speaking and weakness in her left hand, who was told she had an inner ear disorder.

"Accurate diagnosis of stroke on initial presentation in young adults can reduce the number of patients who have continued paralysis and continued speech problems," said Seemant Chaturvedi, M.D., senior author of the study and a professor of neurology and director of the stroke program at Wayne State.

"We have seen several young patients who presented to emergency rooms with stroke-like symptoms within three to six hours of symptom onset, and these patients did not get proper treatment due to misdiagnosis. The first hours are really critical."

Intravenous delivery of the clot-busting drug tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) is the only U.S. government-approved treatment for acute stroke. It must be delivered within three hours of symptom onset to reduce permanent disability caused by stroke. Chaturvedi said experimental interventional stroke treatment such as intra-arterial clot busters and mechanical clot retrieval may be an option for some patients three to eight hours after symptoms.

"Part of the problem is that the emergency room staff may not be thinking stroke when the patient is under 45 years old," Chaturvedi said. "Physicians must realize that a stroke is the sudden onset of these symptoms."

Patients arriving with "seemingly trivial symptoms like vertigo and nausea" should be assessed meticulously, he said.

"Some people believe that younger people may respond better to stroke treatments, so that makes it doubly important to recognize when a stroke is happening. After 48 to 72 hours, there are no major interventions available to improve stroke outcome."

No matter the age, people must also get to the hospital quickly if these stroke symptoms occur:

• sudden numbness or weakness of the face, arm or leg, especially on one side of the body;
• sudden confusion, trouble speaking or understanding;
• sudden trouble seeing in one or both eyes;
• sudden trouble walking, dizziness, loss of balance or coordination; and/or
• sudden, severe headache with no known cause.

Stroke is the third leading cause of death and one of the top causes of disability in the United States.

"Early intervention is the most critical component of effective stroke care," said Abraham Kuruvilla, M.D., the study's lead author and a stroke fellow in the neurology department at Wayne State University. "Early intervention will reduce the burden of disability of the young patients afflicted with stroke disability and the associated high cost of medical care in this population."

Source: American Heart Association

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:53 pm

... and? :scratch:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 am

Doctors don't like anyone treading on their "turf," therefore some of them are on a witch hunt against chiropractors. I happen to think personal health is no one's "turf" but that of the individual, and that individual should have the freedom of personal choice for what goes on with their own body.

At the very least the dope smokers legalization plea should find some common ground here.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:13 am

landrew wrote:Doctors don't like anyone treading on their "turf," therefore some of them are on a witch hunt against chiropractors. I happen to think personal health is no one's "turf" but that of the individual, and that individual should have the freedom of personal choice for what goes on with their own body.

At the very least the dope smokers legalization plea should find some common ground here.

Did you glean this from the HO's post, cuz I missed this interpretation? Strokes, witches and potheads, all in one thread... :roll:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:33 am

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:Doctors don't like anyone treading on their "turf," therefore some of them are on a witch hunt against chiropractors. I happen to think personal health is no one's "turf" but that of the individual, and that individual should have the freedom of personal choice for what goes on with their own body.

At the very least the dope smokers legalization plea should find some common ground here.

Did you glean this from the HO's post, cuz I missed this interpretation? Strokes, witches and potheads, all in one thread... :roll:

More than your money's worth. :)
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
brauneyz
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Everywhere, USA

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby brauneyz » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:47 am

landrew wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:Doctors don't like anyone treading on their "turf," therefore some of them are on a witch hunt against chiropractors. I happen to think personal health is no one's "turf" but that of the individual, and that individual should have the freedom of personal choice for what goes on with their own body.

At the very least the dope smokers legalization plea should find some common ground here.

Did you glean this from the HO's post, cuz I missed this interpretation? Strokes, witches and potheads, all in one thread... :roll:

More than your money's worth. :)

Seriously, it's more like a triple feature. :pc:
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." ~ Bertrand de Jouvenel

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:58 am

brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:
brauneyz wrote:
landrew wrote:Doctors don't like anyone treading on their "turf," therefore some of them are on a witch hunt against chiropractors. I happen to think personal health is no one's "turf" but that of the individual, and that individual should have the freedom of personal choice for what goes on with their own body.

At the very least the dope smokers legalization plea should find some common ground here.

Did you glean this from the HO's post, cuz I missed this interpretation? Strokes, witches and potheads, all in one thread... :roll:

More than your money's worth. :)

Seriously, it's more like a triple feature. :pc:

Then take all the time you need.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

Guest

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:44 pm

the problem with stroke is that in it's earliest stages it presents like a multitude of other more common problems - lucky it is a relatively rare event that appears to happen to people regardless of what they do to themselves or have done to them.

early signs are - headache, numbness, vertigo - real common ailments that we have all had at one point

later signs of facial weakness and slurred speach, poor recognition of speech, poor balance are a whole other issue in recognition of stroke - but depending on the circumstance these could still be confused with other more common ailments
ie. an MD sees alot of drunks one night in the emergency room - he or she is thinking "drunk" before stroke

same thing happened to my mom - her bleeding colon tumor was misdiagnosed as the "flu" because her symptoms were flu like initially and everyone else had the flu bug - wasn't until she did not improve and we switched MD's did we find out what was going on - but by that point it had met's to the liver and she was terminal

so did the first MD mis-manage my mom's case? in retrospect the answer is yes but is it malpractice - that is another issue that is not so clear

my point is that just like the old addage - when you hear hoofbeats - think horses and not zebras - so saying that all these practitioners should have seen the stroke coming on is not realistic based on what the patient presented with and what they told the doc

it is really easy to have 20/20 hindsight and cast blame on the medical and chiropractic professions for something like this but it is not fair to either profession

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:23 pm

Your argument is a variation of the straw man argument.

Fact: medical diagnosis has some uncertainties, diagnosis does not prove causation/etiology. The most simple example: I can diagnose a urinary tract infection on the basis of symptoms, physical exam and a dipstick urine test. Most of the time it will resolve with the first prescription of antibiotics, when symptoms persist, a culture and sensitivity test will reveal what microorganism is causing the infection and which antibiotic will treat the infection best.

Fact: people that undergo cervical chiropractic manipulation are at a higher risk of stroke caused by vertebral artery trauma

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:54 pm

skepticdoc wrote:Your argument is a variation of the straw man argument.

Fact: medical diagnosis has some uncertainties, diagnosis does not prove causation/etiology. The most simple example: I can diagnose a urinary tract infection on the basis of symptoms, physical exam and a dipstick urine test. Most of the time it will resolve with the first prescription of antibiotics, when symptoms persist, a culture and sensitivity test will reveal what microorganism is causing the infection and which antibiotic will treat the infection best.

Fact: people that undergo cervical chiropractic manipulation are at a higher risk of stroke caused by vertebral artery trauma

Everything we do has some effect on health risk levels. Surgery can increase the risks of serious complications much more than cervical manipulation. Personally, I know of several cases where surgery was recommended by medical doctors, and a second opinion by a chiropractor provided a much simpler, non-surgical resolution to the problem.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:12 pm

skepticdoc wrote:... Fact: people that undergo cervical chiropractic manipulation are at a higher risk of stroke caused by vertebral artery trauma
Fact, chiropractors [/b]further[/b] increase the risk by manipulating the necks of people who have nothing wrong up there.
landrew wrote:... Personally, I know of several cases where surgery was recommended by medical doctors, and a second opinion by a chiropractor provided a much simpler, non-surgical resolution to the problem.
Oh good. Where would we be without anecdotes? Sometimes the choice between surgery, or not, is based in how long a person can wait for the problem to resolve itself.

JJM
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:48 pm
Location: Taxachusetts

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby JJM » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:53 pm

the honorable opposition wrote:the problem with stroke is that in it's earliest stages it presents like a multitude of other more common problems - lucky it is a relatively rare event that appears to happen to people regardless of what they do to themselves or have done to them. ...
Your argument is based on the false premise that the neck-snapper is just an "innocent bystander" when this rare event occurs. There is no evidence for that assumption. There is plenty of evidence in anatomy that the chiro-snap can cause a stroke. And there are many examples of healthy people having strokes during/after the procedure. Beyond that, if prodromal stroke symptoms are often mistaken- when someone has such a complaint, why do chiros go ahead and advance the problem? You say that's not enough, you say you want more? There is no proven benefit for the stroke-inducing neck twist!

That's the chiro hat-trick- twist the neck regardless, twist the neck when contra-indicated, and there is never any good reason to do it at all!

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:01 pm

JJM wrote:
the honorable opposition wrote:the problem with stroke is that in it's earliest stages it presents like a multitude of other more common problems - lucky it is a relatively rare event that appears to happen to people regardless of what they do to themselves or have done to them. ...
Your argument is based on the false premise that the neck-snapper is just an "innocent bystander" when this rare event occurs. There is no evidence for that assumption. There is plenty of evidence in anatomy that the chiro-snap can cause a stroke. And there are many examples of healthy people having strokes during/after the procedure. Beyond that, if prodromal stroke symptoms are often mistaken- when someone has such a complaint, why do chiros go ahead and advance the problem? You say that's not enough, you say you want more? There is no proven benefit for the stroke-inducing neck twist!

That's the chiro hat-trick- twist the neck regardless, twist the neck when contra-indicated, and there is never any good reason to do it at all!

You're not refuting a thing. As long as people are being helped, no one is going to stop chiropractors from helping them.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:30 pm

That is what the guy that implanted goat testicles and the lobotomist said...

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/brinkley.html

http://www.lobotomist.com/

... they both felt they were helping.

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:53 pm

skepticdoc wrote:That is what the guy that implanted goat testicles and the lobotomist said...

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/brinkley.html

http://www.lobotomist.com/

... they both felt they were helping.

Intentional category error. One fraud does not prove another.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

User avatar
skepticdoc
Poster
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby skepticdoc » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:09 am

landrew wrote:Intentional category error. One fraud does not prove another.


Do we agree that chiro manipulation is fraudulent?

joewilly
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:34 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby joewilly » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:07 am

Chiro is no more fraudulent than massage. However the masseuse may be fraudulent. Most feel better after a session. You expect a service and you pay for it. It is not paid by insurance. If it were kept at that there would be no issues.

Problems come from legal aspects. When Chiro is accepted as evidence of personal injury which is then compensable in a court. Now we have crossed the line. In fact, time and time again they are convicted of collusion with the other group of bottom feeders.

User avatar
landrew
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7018
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:51 am

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby landrew » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:19 am

joewilly wrote:Chiro is no more fraudulent than massage. However the masseuse may be fraudulent. Most feel better after a session. You expect a service and you pay for it. It is not paid by insurance. If it were kept at that there would be no issues.

Problems come from legal aspects. When Chiro is accepted as evidence of personal injury which is then compensable in a court. Now we have crossed the line. In fact, time and time again they are convicted of collusion with the other group of bottom feeders.

Some chiropractors have committed fraud, and some doctors have committed fraud. That's for the legal authorities to decide, not by someone who feels their turf threatened by someone providing a competing, alternative service.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

joewilly
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:34 pm

Re: What's Wrong With Chiropractors?

Postby joewilly » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:30 am

I assume that you think that a massage should be paid by health insurance. I do. It makes me feel healthy in body and soul. However, this would open the door to anything. Cosmetic surgery is not covered by insurance. So why would this be any different than an alternative service?


Return to “Healthcare”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests