Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

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Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Ranb » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:27 pm

I'm rather new to the here, but I figured since it was labeled as a skeptic forum I would encounter fewer people who make claims they have no reason to believe and were willing to support a claim with evidence.

I am currently trying to debate a person who makes up facts, won't support them with any evidence and when confronted with evidence to counter his irrational claims resorts to insults.

Should I accept this as normal or find another place to post? Thanks.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:38 pm

How perfect does the world have to be for you to approve?
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Austin Harper » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:43 pm

I did a quick search for your posts to see what you were talking about but I only see 4 of your 16 posts. I'm opted out of the Holocaust Denial section; is that where you're debating? Because there are some real crazies in there. (Hence my opting out.)
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:26 pm

I can see all sixteen and most are in gun related threads. That might explain a thing. Or two. ;)

I hope you're gonna stick around, Ranb. It's nice to see a(nother) knowledgeable and calm voice around.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Austin Harper » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:57 pm

Oh yeah, I opted out of that forum too. I forgot it even existed.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Gord » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Ranb wrote:...I am currently trying to debate a person who makes up facts, won't support them with any evidence and when confronted with evidence to counter his irrational claims resorts to insults.

Should I accept this as normal...?

Yes and no. Some people can be reasoned with easier than others. And some people have been burnt out on a topic for a long time, so getting them to post in a less-than-combative tone will be difficult. I either ignore them or translate their tone into a more congenial one, internally, with my mind, as I read.

Actually, I ignore a lot of posts these days. A lot. Just skip right over them.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Aztexan » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:09 pm

That popping sound you hear isn't gunfire. It's the sound of Pyrrho banging his head on his desk. Or his aspirin hitting the back of his throat. I can't tell.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:23 pm

No, it's my bag of popcorn cooking in the microwave.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:54 pm

I had no clue as usual, so I followed Harper's lead and looked up Ranb's posts in the Gun forum. Half the exchanges are with ME? Ha, ha. So..........I AM THE ONE with no reason to believe guns are dangerous, have no evidence, and resort to insults. Wow. Well.......being a real man, I have to evaluate my position here.

1. Skeptic is a label. I have never claimed that label and don't think it applies to anyone just because they post here. I could be wrong on that.

2. blah, blah. I got tired. Besides........I don't "know" I am the culprit. So........going back to the gun thread and see if its worth being more engaged.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Gord » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:04 pm

Ohhhh, it's bobbo! NOW I understand. :heh:

Yes, Ranb. It's normal for bobbo. Either ignore him or translate his tone in your head. He also uses a lot of dots, which I have more trouble translating than his tone.

And most importantly, try not to take anything personally. That's the sort of thing that'll keep a person up at night.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:14 pm

"..............." are reminders to breathe.

All part of the public service.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Aztexan » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:28 pm

I've never claimed to be a skeptic. I just don't believe BS. Skeptics are ejukated and probably post wearing socks and underwear.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:10 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I had no clue as usual, so I followed Harper's lead and looked up Ranb's posts in the Gun forum. Half the exchanges are with ME? Ha, ha. So..........I AM THE ONE with no reason to believe guns are dangerous, have no evidence, and resort to insults. Wow. Well.......being a real man, I have to evaluate my position here.

The thread; viewtopic.php?f=97&t=28758&p=616699#p616699
So far the exchange between us in the gun thread is something like this;

bobbo; "Legally possessed ones (automatic weapons) are used to kill people"

Ranb; "But what evidence is there that legally possessed machine guns are a problem in the USA? Have any at all?"

bobbo; " Armor Piercing... (ammo)"

Ranb; "Do you even know what AP ammo is?"

bobbo; "automatic weapons are already illegal"

Ranb; "MG's are legal in the USA. Educate yourself here; https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download "

bobbo: "I'm the one that needs an education? .... Yes, I just smeared both of you."

Ranb; "Your above post was for the most part 100% fail."

bobbo: "You mean there is not a single instance of "machine" guns being used in the USA? OK. Then the issue would be one of the potential for their use in the future. A question of values and risk tolerance."

Ranb; "So what is the potential for misuse of legally possessed machine guns in the future. Seeing as how you don't know of a single misuse of a civilian legal machine gun in the USA since registration was required in 1934, why do you think people are going to all of a sudden use them to commit violent crime?"

bobbo; " Whats your point Ranb?"

Ranb; "The point I was making is that you make up facts and behave like the people here are stupid enough to believe you. What do you hope to gain by using bullcrap instead of evidence to back your claims?"

Your posts in that thread are so far a mixture of ad hominem attacks, straw man fallacies, begging the question, and shifting the burden of proof. All in all your performance has been very childish.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:29 am

Yes, that is pretty much the bobbo experience. I suggest the Ignore function for starters.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:31 am

So Ranb: you post here at 4:10 PM after being told the discussion would continue in the gun forum AND you even responded to the re-engaged discussion there at 4:05 PM. What are you trying to gain by posting here?

Skattershot.......after I complimented you as a sharpshooter.

tsk, tsk.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:54 am

Responding in the thread is appropriate. Calling me a sharpshooter is not a compliment; at least not one I'm used to in this context. But I don't need a single complement from you at all even if you feel they are needed.

I would prefer an apology for your insults. Also, I'd like to know where you get your information from when you claim that the federal government bans any kind of firearm. It was a simple question but so far all I have from you is evasion.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:00 am

Only since you asked.........it was my impression that was the case, that machine guns were illegal. On your challenge, I did google the issue (learning about the topic don't you know?) and there was some reference regarding machine guns being grandfathered but "effectively" outlawed was my take.

I don't readily think of any context where sharpshooter is not a compliment. I think of myself as a sharpshooter when it comes to darts and archery. Takes time to develop those skills.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Gord » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I think of myself as a sharpshooter when it comes to darts and archery. Takes time to develop those skills.

Do you hit the darts with the arrows, or hit the archers with the darts? :pardon:
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Ranb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:27 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Only since you asked.........it was my impression that was the case, that machine guns were illegal. On your challenge, I did google the issue (learning about the topic don't you know?) and there was some reference regarding machine guns being grandfathered but "effectively" outlawed was my take.

Where did you read this? They are not effectively outlawed at all. It seems you're trying to claw your way out of the hole you've dug and are not getting anywhere at all.

Here is a quick and dirty lesson. One of the first federal statutes (amended several times) for controlling guns was the National Firearms Act of 1934. It required a tax stamp to own MG, SBS, SBR, AOW, Silencers and DD's. In most cases a person had to pay a $200 tax for each one they made or bought; AOW's were $5 for transfers. They also had to obtain a CLEO signature which could be denied by the local sheriff for any reason at all. Tax evasion will cost you 10 years/$10k.

But the BATFE is required to consider every application it receives and Ive never heard of ANY application being denied as long as it was filled out correctly.

If a person doesn't want to pay a $200 tax on each NFA firearm they make or buy, they can apply for a dealer's license (FFL $200/3 years) and pay the Special Occupational Tax (SOT $1000/year). If they want to manufacture these guns they also have to pay the yearly ITAR of $2250. So for most of us it is cheaper to pay the $200 on each NFA firearm we make.

In 1986 the Firearm Owner's Protection Act was passed. A summary is here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_O ... ection_Act The Hughes amendment was included which prohibited the registration of new MG's for civilians. This is why most registered machine gun in civilian hands are more than 30 years old. The only parts that can't be replaced are the receiver and the auto sear. This means that the MG owner can blaze away all they want and when the barrel and other parts are worn out, they just buy new ones and replace them. The receiver and auto sear really don't wear much. Since the supply of MG's for unlicensed civilians has been fixed since 1986 and inflation has made the $200 tax less meaningful, demand has far outstripped supply.

If you don't want to pay $20k for an M-16, you can obtain an FFL, pay the SOT and get authorization to make and evaluate a MG (love letter) from a police or government agency. Since there is no gun fairy, it is up to civilians to make and evaluate guns for everyone else.

So anyone who can own a gun can also own a MG. Therefore, not banned and not grandfathered.

In 2015 the Obama administration implemented regulation 41P, easing the requirements for obtaining NFA firearms by eliminating the CLEO signature requirement and replacing it with merely informing the CLEO instead. This was very good news for those who were the wrong race, color, creed or just unlucky enough to live in a county with a rotten sheriff. Trusts and Corps are now also required to provide photos/fingerprints just like individuals.

Obama has done more to make gun more readily available to Americans than Reagan, Bush and Trump put together.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:34 am

Folks, I'm going to move this thread into the Guns subforum.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:39 am

My web history did not keep whatever I read but it was something like this:

The Decades-Old Gun Ban That's Still On The Books : It's All Politics ...
https://www.npr.org/sections/.../2013/. ... the-book...
Jan 16, 2013 - In 1986, Congress passed a ban on buying and selling machine guns made from then on — with the blessing of none other than the National Rifle Association. Gun law experts say the law was more significant than it seemed at the time.

As I posted emphatically........I don't find discussions about legality regarding what the law "is" all that relevant and only interesting as an aside, when the superseding issue is what the law "should be" and in this case.........Constitutional Law.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:30 pm

Oooh! Oooh!

Ideological blood purge time! :pr:
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:22 pm

Aztexan wrote:I've never claimed to be a skeptic. I just don't believe BS. Skeptics are ejukated and probably post wearing socks and underwear.


Citation needed.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Monster » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:04 pm

Ranb wrote:I'm rather new to the here, but I figured since it was labeled as a skeptic forum I would encounter fewer people who make claims they have no reason to believe and were willing to support a claim with evidence.

I am currently trying to debate a person who makes up facts, won't support them with any evidence and when confronted with evidence to counter his irrational claims resorts to insults.

Should I accept this as normal or find another place to post? Thanks.

Every once in a while, I encounter someone who uses extraordinarily poor logic, and whose mind can't be changed. I typically give up trying to convince that person. Perhaps you should follow my example?
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:28 pm

Some topics are more emotionally charged than others. The most emotionally charged tend to attract people who are vested in their beliefs, and who tend to sway facts to support their view, rather than sway their view to conform to facts.

Skeptics are not immune where their core values are threatened.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:42 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: Skeptics are not immune where their core values are threatened.

......if they or anyone else maintains "threatenable" core values. Unless a "value" is not wanting to be imprisoned for no good reason and whatnot. Yes, I'm making a distinction that if I did the crime, I don't think my core values would be threatened by a prosecution with jail in mind.

In my case, its the existentialism streak in my real name.....but with more exposure and development, it could also be a sense of humor?
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Aztexan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:46 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Aztexan wrote:I've never claimed to be a skeptic. I just don't believe BS. Skeptics are ejukated and probably post wearing socks and underwear.


Citation needed.


I assume.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:41 am

Aztexan wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Aztexan wrote:I've never claimed to be a skeptic. I just don't believe BS. Skeptics are ejukated and probably post wearing socks and underwear.


Citation needed.


I assume.


I`ll not claim, or admit otherwise...

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Aztexan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

I made that comment when this thread was in the Skepticism and Critical Thinking subforum. I guess I should note that while it is perfectly acceptable to post while only wearing socks and underwear it is not considered proper etiquette to shoot firearms while in that state of undress.*

The more you know...




*unless you're hopped up on PCP
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:24 pm

Yabbut, if your ex the bad guys come in while you are in bed with your new gf, it might take too long to even find your socks, never mind put them on before shooting.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby TJrandom » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:42 pm

New gfs normally don`t take so long to shoot up... just saying.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Gord » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:24 am

I usually just shoot them through the bathroom door.

What are we talking about again?
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:26 am

Gord wrote:
What are we talking about again?


Self-defence courses for flamingos. Please try to keep up.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Aztexan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:55 am

I thought we were talking about it's acceptable to cheat on your gf if your house is being burglarized.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:57 am

Aztexan wrote:I thought we were talking about it's acceptable to cheat on your gf if your house is being burglarized.


That is the sub-text.
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:14 am

We all occasionally make mistakes. When we do, it helps to admit it, and move on. Some people are all too human and fail to admit to mistakes, and any debate then gets stuck in a rut. Skeptics seem to be just as prone to this human failing as other people. How we deal with this depends on our own personality. I am weak and often keep arguing long after it is obvious I am getting nowhere.

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby TJrandom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:58 am

Me too... but I am sure that nobody notices.... :hmm:

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:41 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Skeptics seem to be just as prone to this human failing as other people.

A quibble: then is such a person truly a skeptic?...... or mostly something else??
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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby TJrandom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Skeptics seem to be just as prone to this human failing as other people.

A quibble: then is such a person truly a skeptic?...... or mostly something else??


What? A skeptic must walk on water? All of the time?

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Re: Nonskeptical behavior on the forum.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:04 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:A quibble: then is such a person truly a skeptic?...... or mostly something else??


We are all human and have human failings.
Being a skeptic is not an end result, but a journey. We know how we want to be, and it is a life long effort to live up to. I know that I am weak and often fail to live up to the standards I aspire to, but I still consider myself to be a skeptic.


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