Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Fri May 08, 2015 4:58 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:Don't take my word for it. And don't take your word for it either. As Richard Feynman once said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool."

that should go both ways....

If you had actually understood what I wrote, you would have seen that I already said that.

You are another one in the same boat as JO. You wouldn't recognize valid logic if it bit you in the ass.

The two of you are like cranks hanging out at a mathematics conference annoying all the real mathematicians with your logical nonsense. In real life, they would just toss you out on your ass, but this forum has decided not to exercise that option.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Fri May 08, 2015 4:58 pm

JO 753 wrote:Your main lojik fail iz that you dont connect the dots wen they clearly draw a picture that refutes wut you want to believ. Youv often tried to karakterize any recognition uv patternz az unwarranted extrapolation, az if any use uv imajination iz unsientific.

QED. Strong in this one, the Dunning Kruger is.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Fri May 08, 2015 5:18 pm

:lol:
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 09, 2015 4:55 pm

3 year old shot by brother

Their father told police he'd been out of the car for just a minute or two when the older child got hold of a handgun the father left in the car. It went off, hitting his sister and shooting a hole through her hand.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed May 13, 2015 10:08 am

US Marshal charjd with murder

Lloyd allegedly pulled his service weapon and shot Stowers in the right leg.

Police said Stowers used his cell phone to call 911, got back in his car and began driving away when Lloyd fired numerous shots. Stowers was shot in the back and died.

Authorities said Stowers was from Redding, Calif., was in the U.S. Navy and was in the area on Navy-related business.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 17, 2015 10:15 pm

9 ded at biker hangout

The reporter mistakenly callz them "bicycle gang members".
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 18, 2015 4:25 pm

Google serch - Homeowner shot with his own gun - 1,210,000 rezults

A few frum that collection:

McKinney TX
The victim said he confronted three men who entered his home in the 1700 block of Surrey Lane, near Glen Oaks and Lake Forest drives. A struggle ensued, and the man was shot after losing control of his gun.


Tazewell county VA (HA! shoud uv had a tazer insted, rite?)
According to Sheriff Brian Hieatt, the suspect broke into a home on Melrose St. in Bluefield, Va. at 11:45 a.m. on Thursday, Oct. 25. He had apparently found a .22 caliber pistol in the home and was searching a room when the homeowner walked in. The Sheriff tells 59News that the suspect shot the homeowner with his gun than ran off.


Orting WA
Police believe he interrupted a burglary in his garage, perhaps a gas theft, and it turned deadly when his own shotgun was turned against him.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 18, 2015 4:28 pm

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 19, 2015 1:18 am

Phil Hartman & Brynn Omdahl It will be 17 yirz on the 28th sins the murder/suicide.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 19, 2015 3:11 pm

"Gunz dont kill people, people do."

Google search - gun exploded - 9,550,000 rezults

A few samplz:

during a deer hunting trip in Daggett County on Oct. 22, 2004, when he aimed at a deer and pulled the trigger, "the gun exploded and disintegrated into dozens of pieces, sending debris as far as fifty feet away, and into (Tatman's) face," according to the lawsuit.

From the deer: "HA HA!"

mouse or old linux netbook not working properly I'll ad more latr on my usual laptop

To be fair, alot uv the rezults are really 'exploded view' skematics.

Youtube, M16 explodez in idiots handz

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/12/09/indiana-shooter-loses-fingers-rifle-explodes/20137443/
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 2:29 pm


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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 3:22 pm

JO 753 wrote:"Gunz dont kill people, people do."

Google search - gun exploded - 9,550,000 rezults

A few samplz:

during a deer hunting trip in Daggett County on Oct. 22, 2004, when he aimed at a deer and pulled the trigger, "the gun exploded and disintegrated into dozens of pieces, sending debris as far as fifty feet away, and into (Tatman's) face," according to the lawsuit.

Good example, JO. You bring up a good point.

If the bumper sticker "Guns don't kill people, people do" were meant as an unqualified universal claim about all guns, then you have shown a valid counter-example. As a universal claim, that bumper sticker is clearly false, as you have just shown.

However, I know of no one who means it as a universal claim.

(Just to clarify, in that example it was a defect that killed the gun owner, not a properly operating gun.)

When (most) people say "Guns don't kill people, people do" what they have in mind is the following limited context:

"Properly operating guns don't kill other people, people do."*

The point of the bumper sticker is to show the absurdity of blaming the gun when a criminal uses it to kill someone. The criminal is the cause of the homicide, not the gun. That specific point is not refuted by the fact some people die from using a defective gun. (One might also argue that the gun would not have exploded unless a person pulled the trigger, but I'm not going to make that argument).

Part of the problem with using bumper stickers (or snappy slogans) is that there is not always enough room on them to include all the qualifiers that limit the context of the claim. In other words, (most) people who use the slogan are not making a universal claim. If you ask them to clarify, then if they are honest they will admit they are not making a universal claim. (That is my personal opinion -- I do not have scientific poll numbers to back it up.)


_________________________________________________________
* footnote: I anticipate that some might (mistakenly) think I have just committed the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. That would only be true if I rejected the counter-example. But I didn't. I accept the counter-example as a valid rebuttal to the universal claim. By acknowledging that the bumper sticker is not valid as a universal claim, my "argument" does not meet all the requirements to be called a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 26, 2015 9:43 pm

xanks.

There iz another catagory that duznt involv malfunction. Like in your abuv example, goofing around or carelessly handling a gun often rezults in injury and deth. The gun iz the immediate cauze, not the goofballz. You cnat really 'blame' the gun, so the responsibility iz correctly passed up to the owner, the seller, the manufacturer and the lawmakerz.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Tue May 26, 2015 10:10 pm

JO 753 wrote:xanks.

You're welcome. It's only fair that I acknowledge when you make a valid point.

JO 753 wrote:You cnat really 'blame' the gun, so the responsibility iz correctly passed up to the owner, the seller, the manufacturer and the lawmakerz.

The owner is responsible. That has always been my position. However, the sellers and manufacturers are not responsible for criminal misuse of a firearm. They are only liable for defective products. As for politicians, good luck suing them because some criminal misused a firearm.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue May 26, 2015 11:50 pm

That duznt account fot the idiot factor. Its fundamentally identical to giving a baby a gun.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 pm


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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed May 27, 2015 8:04 pm

Appearz to hav occured in England.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Wed May 27, 2015 9:15 pm

JO 753 wrote:Appearz to hav occured in England.

Yes, that was my guess too when I first read it and other similar stories from UK media.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:29 am

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shocking-things-kentucky-woman-convicted-boyfriends-murder/story?id=31500565

Previous honor student. Shot her on agen off agen BF 6 timez with hiz own gun out uv jelousy.

He owned several more gunz, nun uv wich did him any good.

This iz a good example uv the flaw in the 'bad guy' consept.

Herez the ritten story if you dont want to lissin to a commercial every 30 secondz: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3053420/Woman-guilty-murder-shooting-lawyer-boyfriend-six-times-tried-dump-beauty-queen.html
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:22 am

JO 753 wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/US/shocking-things-kentucky-woman-convicted-boyfriends-murder/story?id=31500565

Previous honor student. Shot her on agen off agen BF 6 timez with hiz own gun out uv jelousy.

He owned several more gunz, nun uv wich did him any good.

Yes, sometimes having a gun does not prevent its owner from getting killed. And other times, it does.

JO 753 wrote:This iz a good example uv the flaw in the 'bad guy' consept.

Please explain what you mean by that. What concept are you talking about?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:44 am

The idea that there are clearly defined good guyz and bad guyz. Its not even a matter uv gray areaz. Anybody can get angry, go crazy, or just make a mistake. A gun makes it very eazy for such an occurans to bekum a trajedy. The woman in that example never even had a parking ticket so coud hav legally owned all the gunz she wanted.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:12 am

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:This iz a good example uv the flaw in the 'bad guy' consept.

Please explain what you mean by that. What concept are you talking about?

The idea that there are clearly defined good guyz and bad guyz. Its not even a matter uv gray areaz. Anybody can get angry, go crazy, or just make a mistake. A gun makes it very eazy for such an occurans to bekum a trajedy. The woman in that example never even had a parking ticket so coud hav legally owned all the gunz she wanted.

I agree. I have never claimed otherwise. So where is the flaw in my position?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:21 pm

Overall - that guns are making us safer.

For you - that owning a gun woud make you safer.

For a spesific situation - that, wen attacked, a gun can provide a 100% seksesful defens.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:57 pm

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:53 am

xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:This iz a good example uv the flaw in the 'bad guy' consept.

Please explain what you mean by that. What concept are you talking about?

The idea that there are clearly defined good guyz and bad guyz. Its not even a matter uv gray areaz. Anybody can get angry, go crazy, or just make a mistake. A gun makes it very eazy for such an occurans to bekum a trajedy. The woman in that example never even had a parking ticket so coud hav legally owned all the gunz she wanted.

I agree. I have never claimed otherwise. So where is the flaw in my position?

Can I assume from your (intentional) lack of response to that specific aspect of my position, that you no longer claim there is a flaw in my concept of bad guys?

Instead you chose to address other aspects of my position, which you are allowed to do on this forum:

JO 753 wrote:Overall - that guns are making us safer.

If I am to be completely honest, I don't really know if that's absolutely true or not. I have cited official government data that supports that claim, and I have cited numerous personal examples (anecdotes) that support that claim, and I do in fact believe it to be mostly true, but given the complexity of all the causal factors, and given the counter-evidence that sometimes guns have not always made one safer, I cannot say I have enough data to claim it's an indisputable fact. My position is that there is evidence to support the idea that guns make us safer. Where is the flaw in my position?

JO 753 wrote:For you - that owning a gun woud make you safer.

For me personally, I don't really know if that's true or not. In my personal life that has never been put to the test.

JO 753 wrote:For a spesific situation - that, wen attacked, a gun can provide a 100% seksesful defens.

I don't think I have ever claimed that. Please explain what you mean by that. There is enough ambiguity in your comment that I could reasonably interpret it several ways.

I have shown examples where guns have been successful, but I have not claimed that guns will always be successful. Something can always go wrong even in situations that would seem to be similar. Where is the flaw in my position?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:55 am


That's a good example for this thread. Is there anything in that editorial you disagree with?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:32 am

WIthout rereading it, no. The jeneral idea wuz that this poor fellow iz a victim uv a stupid law. I agree.

I actually considered sining up for the Glock sweepstakes.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:27 am

xouper wrote:Can I assume from your (intentional) lack of response to that specific aspect of my position, that you no longer claim there is a flaw in my concept of bad guys?


Maybe. I dont know wut your consept uv bad guyz iz. You agreed with my statement, so wen you asked wut the flaw in your pozition iz, I assumed you were asking about your jeneral pozition on gunz, meaning that the bad guy aspect had no bearing on it.

My position is that there is evidence to support the idea that guns make us safer. Where is the flaw in my position?


The basic mekanics uv the situation - gunz are very effectiv at injuring and killing, humanz are a widely variable group uv mentally unstable beingz. Putting the 2 together iz a recipe for bad occuransez. The statistics bear this out.

For me personally, I don't really know if that's true or not. In my personal life that has never been put to the test.


The stats show that owning a gun puts you at higher risk uv getting shot. Many uv the storyz in this thred are about that. But you are correct. You coud go your entire life without ever getting shot at or needing to shoot at sumwun. Or you coud get attacked and your gun will save your life. You never know unless sumthing happenz. There iz sum truth to the saying 'I'd rather hav a gun and not need it than need a gun and not hav wun'.

The best you can do iz look at the stats and storyz. Wut can go rong and how often duz it happen. You can also talk to gun ownerz and see if they hav any advise on avoiding the pitfallz they hav experienst. I believ FTH and Gawd can tell you sumthing.

Me, I see the actual potential danjer and realize that its not a risk I want to take. I see the investment in time needed to bekum competent with this 'tool' and know that its not worth it for me. I also know that I do not hav the unfailing vijilens, attention to detail, and jeneral alertness to match that amount uv distructiv power. I see the potential cost uv actually uzing a gun in a defensiv situation and woud prefer to not pay it - escape or alternate weponz being my choise.

I don't think I have ever claimed that. Please explain what you mean by that.


Maybe you havent. Wut I mean iz that there iz sum cost to defending yourself with a gun, so its not a 100% seksess. I explained that in sum detail elsewhere.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:38 pm

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:Can I assume from your (intentional) lack of response to that specific aspect of my position, that you no longer claim there is a flaw in my concept of bad guys?

Maybe. I dont know wut your consept uv bad guyz iz.

Most of the time when I use the term "bad guy" I am referring to someone who is currently committing a crime, or who has just recently committed a crime, as directly witnessed by the victim.

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:My position is that there is evidence to support the idea that guns make us safer. Where is the flaw in my position?

The basic mekanics uv the situation - gunz are very effectiv at injuring and killing, humanz are a widely variable group uv mentally unstable beingz. Putting the 2 together iz a recipe for bad occuransez. The statistics bear this out.

How is that a flaw in my position? My position is that there is evidence to support the idea that guns make us safer. The only way to refute my position is to show there is no such evidence. But you have not done that, nor can you.

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:For me personally, I don't really know if that's true or not. In my personal life that has never been put to the test.

The stats show that owning a gun puts you at higher risk uv getting shot.

Not me personally, it doesn't. There are some problems with your claim.

1. The statistical profile of a group does not necessarily apply to any particular individual in that group. Trying to do so, as you are trying to do here, is an ecological inference fallacy.

2. If you are referring to the 2009 Branas study, that has already been debunked (in the very same journal no less), and I have described some of the flaws in that Branas study elsewhere on this forum.

3. I don't live in Philadelphia.

JO 753 wrote:... You coud go your entire life without ever getting shot at or needing to shoot at sumwun. Or you coud get attacked and your gun will save your life. You never know unless sumthing happenz. There iz sum truth to the saying 'I'd rather hav a gun and not need it than need a gun and not hav wun'.

It seems you and I agree on this point.

JO 753 wrote:The best you can do iz look at the stats and storyz. Wut can go rong and how often duz it happen. You can also talk to gun ownerz and see if they hav any advise on avoiding the pitfallz they hav experienst. I believ FTH and Gawd can tell you sumthing.

I am reminded of something Gawdzilla posted not so long ago:
viewtopic.php?p=458131#p458131

Once Upon A Time, Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I like to ask people how they'll know they'd have the nerve to shoot another person. If they haven't already done it they're just guessing.

I have to agree with him on that point. I have never shot someone, and he is correct that I will never know if I can do it until it happens. I prefer never to have to find out.

JO 753 wrote:Me, I see the actual potential danjer and realize that its not a risk I want to take. I see the investment in time needed to bekum competent with this 'tool' and know that its not worth it for me. I also know that I do not hav the unfailing vijilens, attention to detail, and jeneral alertness to match that amount uv distructiv power. I see the potential cost uv actually uzing a gun in a defensiv situation and woud prefer to not pay it - escape or alternate weponz being my choise.

Since I am not qualified to judge the merits of your personal choice in the matter, I will not presume to criticize (or second guess) your choice.

I will however strongly object if you attempt to force me to make the same choice you make, or even if you accuse me of making the wrong choice. You are not me and you have no right to decide these things for me.

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:I don't think I have ever claimed that. Please explain what you mean by that.

Maybe you havent. Wut I mean iz that there iz sum cost to defending yourself with a gun, so its not a 100% seksess. I explained that in sum detail elsewhere.

Yes, and I agreed with your point about there always being some kind of "cost". The mere fact that someone attacks a victim automatically imposes a "cost" upon the victim whether they have a gun or not. The objective then is to minimize that "cost", and for some people, having a gun helped them minimize it.

When I post an example of a successful use of a gun for self defense, I am referring to the fact that the threat was stopped and the victim suffered no physical injury. I feel it goes without saying that the victim pays the cost for the bullets he used to stop the threat. Your nit-picking about minor incidental details does not detract from the main point that guns can be -- and have been -- used successfully to stop a threat from an attacker.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:01 am

xouper wrote:

That's a good example for this thread. Is there anything in that editorial you disagree with?

JO 753 wrote:WIthout rereading it, no. The jeneral idea wuz that this poor fellow iz a victim uv a stupid law. I agree.


Governor Chris Christie Pardons Aspiring Police Officer Steffon Josey-Davis On Bogus Gun Charge
Katie Pavlich | Jun 08, 2015
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/06/08/breaking-governor-chris-christie-pardons-steffon-josiedavis-n2009803

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:26 am

He must be glad thats over! I wunder if he wil be recompensated for hiz troublez?
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:03 am

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:05 am


Lance might want a piece of this action. I will save him trouble of posting this one:
Germany vs New-Zealand crime rates

Or maybe instead Lance might say something like this:

Once Upon A Time, Lance Kennedy wrote:It is, in fact, impossible to compare crime rates between countries. The reason is because definitions of violent crime vary.

It is not my intent to drag Lance back into the discussion. I am merely trying to acknowledge some of his points.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:12 am

If only they had gunz:
Liveleaks - Walmart Fite
watch both. The 2nd wun iz part 2.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:43 pm

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:15 pm


If accidental penis shootings can't unite the world around taking measures to end gun violence, then I don't know what will.

Apparently we can now refer to injuries by car as "automobile violence". Who knew.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:01 pm

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mall-security-guard-harassed-woman-murder-friends-article-1.2258362

An Iowa mall security guard allegedly opened fire and killed a young woman working at a children's museum inside a shopping center following weeks of what friends described as disturbing, “scary and weird” behavior.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:28 pm

Gubmint for us
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:49 am

Gubmint for us
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:57 pm

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