Gun Incident Tax

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:09 am

Lawrence Odonell spellz it out to reveal just how foolish the teacherz with gunz idea iz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC1VAPJ5cgE
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:58 am

Wayne LaPierre: "The NRA duz care."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvw3pHiWUfQ
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:21 pm

I'v updated the paje. Got alot uv ideaz and kreeteeeks from both sidez uv the issue.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:36 pm

Rick Santorum wuns ugen proovz he iz an imbisil and yet makes 1/2 a good point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWMsCO-Icg4

'Forget fony gun lawz. Az a hi skool kid, wut can I do?'

Lets see... blow up gun storez? Kill gun ownerz? Kut off their trigger fingerz at least?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:01 pm

I missed his 1/2 good point if he made one as I could not listen past 2:10. I can't stand that guy or any of the other gun nut congress creeps. but him especially.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:51 pm

You know, as it is a current issue: I think your OP is still an excellent thought.....and one I have never heard anywhere else. I assume Rick Santorum would think it was an infringement and not workable for some reason?

I hate him....and ryan is not far behind although worse as he is in office.....................
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:54 pm

Well, well, well..........I just got an unsolicited email advising me I can get a concealed gun license by completing a form at some website.

.............just follow the $$$.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:07 am

Hiz 1/2 good point iz that the gun lawz being argued about will hav little or no effect.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:43 am

But the deeper import is that it is BECAUSE of douches like him that better gun laws won't even come up for a vote.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:11 pm

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:28 am

Sent this to the Washington Post az an oped:

The founding fathers failed the nation when they wrote the 2nd Amendment. Rather than being the key to America's success, as gun proponents would have us believe, private ownership of firearms has resulted in an unrestrained continuous assault on the very concept of civilized society.

Their failure was essentially one of foresight.

Whether or not it was possible for any of them to conceive of weapons that can be concealed under one's shirt that could enable a single soldier to wipe out an entire brigade is debatable.

What is not is that they failed to include any sort of counterbalancing force within the amendment to preclude the obvious possibility of weapons technology amplifying the destructive power of individuals beyond all reason.

All the arguments interpreting the 2nd Amendment that are used to enable ownership of a simple .22 revolver make equal sense for a nuclear missile. It is only a lack of total insanity that enabled our law makers to draw a line somewhere to prohibit ownership of major military hardware.

Due to the virtual impossibility of repealing the amendment, what is needed is a counterbalance external to the Constitution.

The Gun Incident Tax is a proposal that puts the entire monetary cost of the bloodshed and destruction caused by privately owned firearms on the owners, manufacturers and proponent organizations. Unlike specific laws and regulations which only nibble at the edges of the problem, the GIT provides a foundation upon which new laws aimed at reducing the financial burden will be eagerly sought by those who want to own guns as well as their suppliers and representatives.

What most current owners will decide, I believe, is that they do not want to pay so much for what is essentially a hobby. Offering them a full retail turn-in option will open up the drain on the massive saturation that enables the carnage. Gradually, it will be less and less easy for anybody to get a gun, whether legally or not.

Even if it costs billions of dollars beyond what is collected by the GIT system, it will
be worth it to every person who does not get their life derailed by permanent injury or ended by death. However, given that the idea is properly enacted and executed, rather than watered down and mangled into junk by the legislators, the amounts collected will far exceed the retail value of all the guns in the nation.


They replied today that they cant uze it. Didnt spesify wy.

Seemz sloppily ritten now that I'm rerereading it after a few daze. Maybe if sumwun rote a better version prezenting the same ideaz?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:00 am

Probably..... they don't want to risk loss of advertisers and readership for an idea that has zero chance of adoption.

I still like it, it makes sense. Need to get a Big $$ Liberal to form an Insurance Corporation that would sell the policies and then have it buy the needed politicians. THEN you got a chance.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:15 am

Now you got me thinking.

I hav alwayz thot uv it az a purely goverment program. Wut if insted it IZ a corporation? And just az the goverment makes car insurans mandatory, this woud be also. :shock: (I wuz looking for the smily with $ sinez for eyez, but there iznt wun.)
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:27 am

I think it cant work az a private enterprize. The profit motiv woud ruin it from the start.

But I'm not 100% sure. Maybe if its like a heavily regulated utility?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:57 am

How would it be "ruined" from the start? If so....why is there every other form of insurance??????????
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:55 am

Wut woud haf to happen iz that it woud be set up like normal insurans - you woud be assessed for your risk level, your gunz woud be graded by risk level, the area you live in woud affect your rates. Pretty much the same az car insurans. It woud be enforsed by the polise in a similar way to carz.

'Lisins & insurans, pleez. Everything seemz to be in order. Thank you sir, hav a nice day.' and it all bekumz normal with everybody walking around with gunz.

The bad boyz will still hav unrejistered gunz and there will still be a regular tally uv deths & injuriez by them and the previously good guyz who got angry, the depressed teenz, and aksidents.

The insurans rates mite go up or down with the incident rates, but there will be a bilt in profit motiv to keep it from getting too low. More gunz = more incidents = more gunz = more customerz paying for manditory insurans.

They woud want it to be a sustainable enterprize, so naturally, it coudnt cover the actual cost. I woud expect double the basic value uv the industry at most.

And uv course, making a claim woud be a big hassle. Az big az they can make it, so the victimz woud often giv up.

But, maybe I'm biased, so not thinking clearly.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:47 am

"If guns are made illegal, then only criminals will have guns." ////EXACTLY. make them so much easier to be caught. It boggles my mind how up is turned into down and the very point and goal of a law is used to disparage it. Silly.

The program should be run like a workers comp program. All injuries put on a schedule and you get so much $$$ for whatever the claim is. Open issue would be whether like compensation it is the sole remedy ... or allow certain types of action to allow an option to sue as per normal. Pros and cons.

Let's not make Perfection the enemy of the good.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:36 pm

Still not seeing it.

The orijinal idea puts all gun ownerz and everybody involved in the hobby in 1 big pool. Victimz hav no need to find the perp in their case in order to be compansated, altho they can still go after them in court beyond the GIT system. Lets say Bill Gates goez on a kindergarten shooting spree, the parents woud be able to sue for more than the 5 million they got from the GIT system simply bekuz Bill haz the money to pay. In normal kindrgarten shooting spreez, its a waste uv time to try to get money from the shooterz hoo arent membrz uv the .1% class.

I supoze thered haf to be the equivalent uv the uninsured/underinsured motorist coveraj in the polisyz. In the case uv the Gun Incident Insuranse system you are propozing, it woud be by far the biggest portion uv the bill.

I gess either way, it gets down to real world practicality. The differens being that the GIT duznt try to shoehorn a private enterprize into a money loozing situation. The entire gun industry iz about 15G$ and the incident expens iz estimated to be around 300G$, so casual gun ownerz will get out uv the hobby and even the 'serious' 2nd amendment thumperz will be forsed to cut back on their collectionz. The point iz to reduse proliferation.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:46 pm

The insurans idea wuz brot up on paje 1 uv this topic back in 2015:
Flash wrote:I think the gun owners should have to be required to get insurance just like the car owners. You hit somebody with your car, you get sued for million bucks, your insurance takes the battle forward.

It should be the same with guns. Your ten years old imbecile progeny takes your gun to school and shoots the teacher, you get sued, your insurance should step in.

That way if you can afford insurance you have the right to own the gun.

It's a win/win situation. The inheritors of the victim get rich, so do the corporations that do the thieving, sorry insurance.


My reply wuz:
Wut happenz wen the orijin uv the offending bullet iz unknown?
Or wen the shooter did not hav insurance?

And, az iz often the case with all types uv insurance claimz, the goddam insurance company will do their best to cheat the claimants. In fact, they want to maximize profits, so they woud be motivated to maintain sum level uv gun ownership, so a steady stream uv shootingz in the newz woud suit them fine.

Frum a victimz perspectiv, no; private insurance companyz bekuming the primary administratorz uv the gun hobby liability situation duznt work.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:48 am

Thanks Jo: Yes, I was thinking insurance when you clearly said tax. Practically....there should be no difference in how the programs could work. You keep saying the program would lose money? Well, its all program design whether a tax or an insurance policy .... you continue to "rate" the experience or pay out compared to the income whether taxes paid or insurance premiums paid. If more people killed than the actuary/model is based on then in future years you up the tax/premium and/or reduce the payments for the injuries suffered.

We both agree/guess that the actual injuries caused by guns would justify a tax/premium well above what most gun owners could pay. IE: GUN OWNERS CAN'T PAY FOR THE DAMAGE THEY CAUSE. So, a longer or even short range issue would be should the program in fact be tax supported as if there were enough gun owners to support the damage they cause? A first step towards Universal Health Care?

I see no justification at all for why gun owners don't pay for the damage they cause....every other (most?===ok, some??) activity has to pay for itself. There are people right now who don't drive cars because they can't afford the insurance for it.....and those who drive anyway: aka: criminals. When caught....they can be fined/jailed as the law would provide. Should also require that if no insurance/or tax paid?==the gun/car should be confiscated. You know: a rational program.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Jo: Yes, I was thinking insurance when you clearly said tax.


Probably from reading the OP way back in 2015 wen you first got into the discussion. I rote sumthing like 'run kind uv like insurans exept'.

You'll haf to reread the webpaje if you havent seen it after Feb 26.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:30 am

It might come down to what you believe the purpose of a tax is: if it is just to raise revenue, the fact that many people desire weapons means that the state can profit to some degree without seriously dampening demand.
But if you make the analogy to smoking, a gun tax should both reduce the desire to purchase guns due to high after-tax prices and defray the costs from the negative impact guns have on health.
Despite from gun-fanatics say, a 500% tax on guns wouldn't be unconstitutional: my right to own a beach property in Malibu is not infringed by the fact that I can't afford it.
The NRA, ad nauseum, claims that guns do more good than harm, and so a tax would be harmful to society - this is an argument that can only truly be solved by rigorous collection of data on all gun incidents, including involving law enforcement.

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:40 am

Therez a big danjer that it coud go off the railz for exactly that reazon. Lawmakerz seeing it az a revenue stream will be motivated to pass junk regulationz that keep the problem going.


I shoud ad a counter to the paje kuz I link directly to it alot, bypassing the home paje.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:52 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:...
The NRA, ad nauseum, claims that guns do more good than harm, and so a tax would be harmful to society -

Even if true...I see no reason why a tax/insurance cost should not be applied to the harm. Right now.... the harm is carried "off the books" by other programs or absorbed by its victims. Seems to me the good, whatever that is, should continue along with paying for the bad. ie: the good doesnot not negate the bad. Lots of "good" things have to pay for themselves.......
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pm

An odd thing - yesterday wile killing time at the laundrymat (gotta be sum sorta time dilation effect there!) I serched 'gun incident tax' on my stoopidfone and got nothing about my idea!

This wuz the only rezult: FDR'z gun control stratejy: tax 'em! Interesting story.

Here on a cable fed connection its showing me all the stuff here and elsewhere.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:45 am

Jo--you gotta think "marketing." As tax vs insurance has all the same effects, the program will fail as a tax because that term has such a negative connotation whereas "insurance" is here to protect you. Pragmatism: doing what works, AVOIDING what doesn't work.

Let me google now: (gun incident tax)==>Well....I get 42 Million hits with FDR re Machine gun tax in the number one place. Must be more than time dilation going on where you get clean?

Lets try (Gun insurance)==>116 Million. The people have spoken.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:12 am

Good point.

Lots uv peeps hate insurans also, so iz therez an even better name for it?
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:27 am

Well, if I were a lying manipulative Carl Rove operative type, I'd start with "The Gun Rights Protection Program"....and assume as usual no one would look past the title.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, if I were a lying manipulative Carl Rove operative type, I'd start with "The Gun Rights Protection Program"....and assume as usual no one would look past the title.


Minor correction

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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:02 am

Thats pretty good! The GRPP!
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:38 am

"Stop the Gripe, Get a GRIP....man!"
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:24 am

Wun uv the trajikly sad thingz thats often been noted iz that a group iz formed after the latest outraje, they make sum noize for a wile then thingz simmer down and nothing really happenz.

They seem to get 'organized' into oblivion, doing nothing but collecting donationz.

I dont no if it haz started with the teenajerz yet, but the oddz are it will. Google rezults for 'gun control organizations'.

Look at their websites - all practically the same, az if a single company haz cornered the market on the gun control marketing industry.

GunCon LLC, proudly serving your firearm regulation needs since 1997. promotions, donation management, websites, printed materials, press releases.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 am

I sent this to sum uv them:

Paradigm Shift
The current debate on gun control laws can be seen as a corral in which the participants are allowed to move freely, as long as they stay within the fence.

The fence in this case has been set up by gun proponents.

Like cowboys controlling the movement of their herd, the NRA, ALEC, all the pro-gun politicians including the entire GOP, and their propaganda 'news' outlets spend their efforts keeping the debate from getting too active.

What I have created is well outside the corral.

The Gun Incident Tax finds and addresses the core of the problem, rather than nibbling at the edges as all the background checks, isolated equipment bans, boycotts, etc., etc., etc. being talked about.

The GIT can be seen as the missing weight on the other side of the balance to the 2nd Amendment; something the founding fathers did not include within the Constitution, simply because there was no need to be seen at the the time.

Nothing in that era of hand made wooden flintlocks could have sparked their imagination brightly enough to envision weapons that could enable a single soldier of the future to wipe out an entire battalion of their time, or mass production making such power available to everybody.

Read the linked page. If you can find a flaw in my reasoning, I would like to hear it. And, even if you can, spread the word. If nothing else, it will at least show 'the herd' that there's something beyond the fence.
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:28 am

Jo: I agree with your recognition AND the fact that THAT alone could be the basis on which the Supremes could sing a new song: ORIGINAL INTENT. Its right there: just LOOK.

Your corral metaphor is quite apt. Apt...........but wrong. What the gun proponent position is, is quite more restrained than an entire corral to run around in. No... RATHER...I envision some poor calf that has been hog tied and laying on its side unable to move in its constrained position: NO MOVEMENT ALLOWED AT ALL.

Thats why I love metaphors. They are ALL WRONG at some point. Fun to figure out .... when.

Just: LOOK!
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Re: Gun Incident Tax

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 20, 2018 11:04 pm

Saw Fred Guttenberg on This Week with Jorj Stefanopolis today. Hiz dotr wuz killed in the Parkland insident. He wuz great! He came on after the Lt. Gov uv Texas pooped out the standard NRA tokking points and called him an idiot! :)

Very refreshing to see sumwun who tellz it like it iz without toning it down or diluting it.

Hi Fred.

I saw you on This Week today and really appreciate you calling an idiot an idiot. The NRA has been pushing their 'everything BUT guns' narrative for decades and getting their pet politicians to help. There needs to be way more people with your kind of fire speaking out against the feeble minded claptrap that gets broadcast 24/7 on this and other issues.

But you have a problem.

It's the same problem all the gun control advocates have - all the proposed 'solutions' are not going to have much impact on the level of gun violence in America. They could have been written by the NRA itself! Not only are they inherently weak, they do nothing to encourage interest by the general public. Anybody reading about the latest outrage will at least subconsciously realize that background checks, magazine capacity limits, mental health restrictions, etc. would not have prevented the incident.

What you need is a real solution. Something that will clearly lead to a reduction and eventual elimination of fire arm incidents of all kinds. Something that can get people interested even when they have not suffered a personal loss.

I have such a solution.

I don't know if links will go thru this form, so please look up "Gun Incident Tax" with google, be sure to include the quotation marks. There is a page on my presidential campaign website about it and several forum topics dating back to 2014 when I came up with the idea.

As you can see, I have gotten basicly nowhere with publicizing it. The main stream media appears to be completely unaware of it. No politicians are mentioning it. None of the other mass shooting inspired organizations have anything about it on their websites.

Is it because it seems 'too far out'?

I think so. But that's how any real solution will look when a problem is so extreme. The absurd and outrageous has become 'normal', so what should be normal seems absurd and outrageous.

What is needed are champions like yourself who aren't afraid of speaking the truth. Unconcerned with offending idiots and vapid vote-centric politicians. Think of the GIT as a weapon to attack the NRA with. A weapon that hits the heart of their operation - money!

Feel free to contact me any time by email or phone.

JO 753
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.


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