How Guns could be outlawed in USA

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Mass shooting are virtually NEVER stopped by a"good guy with a gun" - so claiming that people need access to guns to protect themselves is empirically wrong.

mass shootings are stopped by good guys with guns: the cops. Just a twist as cops are not "people needing access to guns" which is actually most of the problem. Saw an article last week about how Police being shot is very highly correlated to the number of guns or lax gun laws......makes plain common sense. I didn't post it as who besides X needs to be reminded of commons sense?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:56 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Mass shooting are virtually NEVER stopped by a"good guy with a gun" - so claiming that people need access to guns to protect themselves is empirically wrong.


That is factually incorrect.

Civilians with guns have indeed stopped mass shootings.

For those with short memories, here's an example I posted recently:


The Chicago Tribune wrote:
Uber driver, licensed to carry gun, shoots gunman in Logan Square

By Geoff Ziezulewicz Chicago Tribune contact the reporter
April 20, 2015

Authorities say no charges will be filed against an Uber driver who shot and wounded a gunman who opened fire on a crowd of people in Logan Square over the weekend.

The driver had a concealed-carry permit and acted in the defense of himself and others, Assistant State's Attorney Barry Quinn said in court Sunday.

A group of people had been walking in front of the driver around 11:50 p.m. Friday in the 2900 block of North Milwaukee Avenue when Everardo Custodio, 22, began firing into the crowd, Quinn said. ...

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X===>until deaths from guns is Zero, we need more guns.

.....................and this is not the statement from a troll because: ................?

Note: to keep my track record pure, I pose this question to challenge X's use of the term. I don't use it because it is deflection and avoidance. aka: even if a troll by whatever definition is used, valid issues can still be raised.

So..............address the issues, not the fact that a question shows your pants are on the ground revealing a multitude of embarrassing short falls and disfigurements.


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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:12 am

X, how many mass shootings have there been, just this year?

Hundreds.

So, statistically, you can stuff your signal Uber driver where the sun shineth not.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:34 am

ElectricMonk wrote:X, how many mass shootings have there been, just this year?

Hundreds.

So, statistically, you can stuff your signal Uber driver where the sun shineth not.


You are correct that most mass shootings have not been stopped by civilians with guns.

But some have.

What exactly is your point?

If you are suggesting that is sufficient reason for taking away guns from the good guys, then I vehemently disagree.

Are you suggesting that those few mass shootings that were stopped should have been allowed to happen because you don't think those civilians should have had a gun?

If that's not your point, then please tell us what your point is.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:17 am

the point, as it always has been, is that the benefits guns provide are vastly dwarfed by the problems they cause.
The better guns (and ammo) are regulated, the more obvious it becomes when individuals start stocking up for a rampage.
And the better the regulation, the harder and more expensive it becomes to acquire guns illegally.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:49 am

xouper wrote: Are you suggesting that those few mass shootings that were stopped should have been allowed to happen because you don't think those civilians should have had a gun?

Anyone not a gun nutter could issue a troll alert at such a post. As stated: you want to invalidate all gun regulations because the death from gun rates is not/will not be Zero........and your nonsensical belief ((you actually don't believe it...depending on what is read and given priority over saying just the opposite....)) that not having Zero deaths from guns is a justification for having more guns. Words can't describe how stupid and illogical this position is. You get from X to the fewest gun deaths possible by decreasing guns.......not increasing them.

Simple.

....................and something other than "not simple" going on to deny it.

Well, as there continues to be no movement on this issue............except I DO THINK the anti-gun element on this issue has made some fine tunings on our appreciation of this issue.........and that is a good thing.........OK....I just changed my mind. I'll continue to Heckle and Troll X as the issue/wording/position/logic motivates me. Movement by the Bro's.... just as rewarding as from the opposition.........===>if they just didn't form a voting block, insensate to reason.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:15 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:the point, as it always has been, is that the benefits guns provide are vastly dwarfed by the problems they cause.


Thanks for finally explaining what you were on about.

In any case, I disagree.

Example: FBI data show that armed victims of assault have a better outcome (on average) than unarmed victims.

It's hard to argue with that benefit. And that's just one example of the many benefits guns provide.

Second example: According to the CDC report commissioned by President Obama, the number of times guns are used for self defense each year is estimated in the hundreds of thousands. The vast majority of those uses, no one gets shot.

So, not only are you understating the benefits guns provide, guns aren't even the problem.

The real problem is that some people use guns illegally.

Your proposed solution is like trying to prevent drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to buy cars.

Sorry, I reject that solution as being totally unacceptable.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:19 pm

Add up all the Pros..............and you got USA with 10 times the death from guns rate.

What you do X is CHERRYPICK your data by only including the pros and not the con's to your positions.

Take self defense by guns. The person MOST likely to be shot: someone in the gun owners family. But you don't/can't even add in the number of deaths causes by some self defending home owners gun being stolen in used in some crime. The only way to add up ALL THE PROS AND CONS........is the National Death from Guns rate which puts USA at the top of this dysfunctional value system.

Cherrypick all you want.........when your faulty analysis is peeled away........... what you have left is your pits.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote: Are you suggesting that those few mass shootings that were stopped should have been allowed to happen because you don't think those civilians should have had a gun?

Anyone not a gun nutter could issue a troll alert at such a post. As stated: you want to invalidate all gun regulations because the death from gun rates is not/will not be Zero........and your nonsensical belief ((you actually don't believe it...depending on what is read and given priority over saying just the opposite....)) that not having Zero deaths from guns is a justification for having more guns. Words can't describe how stupid and illogical this position is. You get from X to the fewest gun deaths possible by decreasing guns.......not increasing them.

Simple.

....................and something other than "not simple" going on to deny it.

Well, as there continues to be no movement on this issue............except I DO THINK the anti-gun element on this issue has made some fine tunings on our appreciation of this issue.........and that is a good thing.........OK....I just changed my mind. I'll continue to Heckle and Troll X as the issue/wording/position/logic motivates me. Movement by the Bro's.... just as rewarding as from the opposition.........===>if they just didn't form a voting block, insensate to reason.


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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:21 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Add up all the Pros..............and you got USA with 10 times the death from guns rate.

What you do X is CHERRYPICK your data by only including the pros and not the con's to your positions.

Take self defense by guns. The person MOST likely to be shot: someone in the gun owners family. But you don't/can't even add in the number of deaths causes by some self defending home owners gun being stolen in used in some crime. The only way to add up ALL THE PROS AND CONS........is the National Death from Guns rate which puts USA at the top of this dysfunctional value system.

Cherrypick all you want.........when your faulty analysis is peeled away........... what you have left is your pits.


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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:24 pm

Troll, Retard, Strawman. Heh, heh. I disagree with calling someone a troll when arguements are presented. Evidently your standard is something different? Same with saying: "Insults are used when a person has nothing left to offer." .... but it seems to fit here.

Ha, ha..............X............. you really hate being told you cherrypick. .............. Some residual of recognition way back there someplace??????/

Very few people who have ever gone bankrupt will even years later admit to a bad business plan: all we needed was more money........they say.

............................"all we need are more guns."

Bankrupt.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Troll, Retard, Strawman. Heh, heh. I disagree with calling someone a troll when arguements are presented. Evidently your standard is something different? Same with saying: "Insults are used when a person has nothing left to offer." .... but it seems to fit here.

Ha, ha..............X............. you really hate being told you cherrypick. .............. Some residual of recognition way back there someplace??????/

Very few people who have ever gone bankrupt will even years later admit to a bad business plan: all we needed was more money........they say.

............................"all we need are more guns."

Bankrupt.


Troll not strong enough to knock down real arguments, so Troll invents straw men to beat up.

Stoopid Troll.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Add up all the Pros..............and you got USA with 10 times the death from guns rate.

What you do X is CHERRYPICK your data by only including the pros and not the con's to your positions.

Take self defense by guns. The person MOST likely to be shot: someone in the gun owners family. But you don't/can't even add in the number of deaths causes by some self defending home owners gun being stolen in used in some crime. The only way to add up ALL THE PROS AND CONS........is the National Death from Guns rate which puts USA at the top of this dysfunctional value system.

Cherrypick all you want.........when your faulty analysis is peeled away........... what you have left is your pits.

X responds with three troll and retard alerts stating no counter argument has been made.

Just look.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:02 am

Getting the number of guns in the US down isn't an insurmountable problem.

step 1: fund the ATF properly
step 2: give it the right and equipment to track every gun ownership transfer, private or business.
step 2.1: have a cash-for-guns buyback scheme for all people not interested in inheriting their parents entire gun collection
step 3: background check those transfers, have the new owners pay for those checks
step 4: make it abundantly clear that if a gun registered to you is used in a crime, you are in deep {!#%@}

this would make it much more expensive to buy guns illegally. It would also reduce the incentive to inherit stockpiles of guns.

over the next generation, this would make a dent in the number of guns in private hands without violating any constitutional rights.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:51 pm

EM---I could slap myself for missing such an "easy" solution.........at least part of any response: make any illegal action while carrying a gun (brandished or not) a life time prison offense. Advertise this fact. ......... Actually enforce it.

Let Darwin rule.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:57 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:EM---I could slap myself for missing such an "easy" solution.........at least part of any response: make any illegal action while carrying a gun (brandished or not) a life time prison offense. Advertise this fact. ......... Actually enforce it.

Let Darwin rule.


throwing more people into prison won't do much good.
But confiscating weapons you carry whilst breaking the laws would.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:29 pm

ElectricMonk wrote: throwing more people into prison won't do much good.
But confiscating weapons you carry whilst breaking the laws would.

How could it not send a very serious "message" to those who would carry guns out of their house for nefarious purposes? TJ has told us that such a rule, one even more harsh and invasive, does have an affect.... unless you think its nature and not culture that gives us the societies we have.

I think confiscaing weapons (alone?) would do ZIP to any issue at all. Guns are too easy to replace.

YES.................mandatory prison time............maybe less time for first offense, because I am so reasonable and flexible to reality, is MEANT TO BE disproportionately harsh..........because the problem being addressed is disproportionately bad as well.

But again: why would mandatory, zero tolerance, lock em up laws not "do much good?" ///// I suspect you have fallen into the trap used by too many gun nutters: it won't work because the death rate from guns will not be zero? The goal here though is to reduce the death from gun rates.................. OVER TIME. Given realities.....it would take decades if not more. But thats how a 1000 mile journey starts. The gun nutter position: you can't take trips because after you take one step.... you are not at your destination.

Is that what you mean?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Aztexan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:44 pm

We need to find a way to punish these shooters after they kill themselves. That'll show em.
{!#%@} trump!

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:28 am

Didn't the Elizabethans hang a person and then draw and quarter them for good measure? We've gone too far in not punishing bad behavior...but death Plus quartering was a bit much for a bad curtsy.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:25 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Didn't the Elizabethans hang a person and then draw and quarter them for good measure? We've gone too far in not punishing bad behavior...but death Plus quartering was a bit much for a bad curtsy.


Throughout history, humans have made horrible executions look as horrible as possible, as they displayed the body as a warning to others. (Generally somewhere scenic, like the main gate to the city)

ISIS tried a modern version of that with videos released, of the Jordanian airforce pilot being burnt alive in a cage.

I don't think we should go back to that technique.
:D

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:41 pm

"Throughout history, humans have made horrible executions look as horrible as possible,..." //// Ha, ha.............I wonder what Trump would think of that.........given the chance???
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:18 am

If we plot on a graph the severity of legal punishments against severity of crimes through history, we would get a beautiful negative correlation. In the western world, as punishments became less, the number and dreadfulness of crimes fell. This is not proof that lesser punishments lead to fewer crimes, but it definitely shows that more severe punishments do not reduce crime.

Incidentally, the highest murder rate I have ever heard about was mentioned in Steven Pinker's book. A small mining town in the American wild west for a few years had a murder rate of 25%. That is right. Every year, one in four residents got murdered. That was partly because almost every resident was a young single male, and that group is the most violent. Also because everyone owned a gun. Definitely NOT a case of good guys with guns stopping the bad guys.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:22 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:If we plot on a graph the severity of legal punishments against severity of crimes through history, we would get a beautiful negative correlation. In the western world, as punishments became less, the number and dreadfulness of crimes fell. This is not proof that lesser punishments lead to fewer crimes, but it definitely shows that more severe punishments do not reduce crime.


I agree.

I think a big change was the rise in property ownership by the lower classes. 200 years ago poor people owned nothing and stole bread and you had to punish those people in public to stop other people stealing bread. Nowadays as most people own property, they have too much to lose to themselves, so punishment is more about stopping re-offending.


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