How Guns could be outlawed in USA

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
Matthew Ellard wrote:So you are now so confused, you are arguing that the rest of the world are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:
xouper wrote:If it's dead criminals, then yes. Otherwise no.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I didn't say dead criminals. I said reducing gun casualties.


Yes, I know YOU  didn't say dead criminals.

I'm the one who said dead criminals.

Are you having a problem with reading comprehension today?


xouper wrote:. . . Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
Matthew Ellard wrote:What country best supports your counter claim? "Westworld?" :lol:
xouper wrote: France, Britain, Germany, Austria, take your pick.
Matthew Ellard wrote:None of those countries advocate the death penalty or civilians shooting criminals. You are just making stuff up as you go :lol:


Straw Man Alert!!

I did not say those countries advocate civilians shooting criminals. You made that up all on your own.

Nor did I say anything about any death penalty. You made that up all on your own.

I said the citizens themselves are getting tired of being defenseless victims and want guns for self defense.

The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years. But what people also want are actual guns for self defense, not just the "toys" they are currently allowed to buy.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:04 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
Matthew Ellard wrote:So you are now so confused, you are arguing that the rest of the world are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:
xouper wrote:If it's dead criminals, then yes. Otherwise no.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I didn't say dead criminals. I said reducing gun casualties.
xouper wrote:Yes, I know YOU  didn't say dead criminals. I'm the one who said dead criminals. Are you having a problem with reading comprehension today?
No. Are you posting random phrases to support your claim "Not so"?

Try harder next time.
:lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:20 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: No. Are you posting random phrases to support your claim "Not so"?

Try harder next time.
:lol:


:roll:

Hey look, the pot is calling the kettle black.

If you have something coherent to say, then say it, and stop playing these games.

I stated my point clearly (which you did not quote here), and you offered no rebuttal to it.

Here it is again:

I said the citizens themselves are getting tired of being defenseless victims and want guns for self defense.

The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years. But what people also want are actual guns for self defense, not just the "toys" they are currently allowed to buy.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:47 am

xouper wrote: I said the citizens themselves are getting tired of being defenseless victims and want guns for self defense.

The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years. But what people also want are actual guns for self defense, not just the "toys" they are currently allowed to buy.

Got a source for this?..................looks suspiciously like NRA talking points. NO DOUBT...some people want guns. That is not a skyrocket.

Provide a LINK.............. not an excuse.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Poodle » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:09 am

xouper wrote: ...The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years ...

I'd like to see a source for that, too. In fact, I suspect that the opposite is true. Gun ownership laws within the EU and EFTA (by far the greater part of Europe) have been constantly tightened over the years. The UK has the tightest gun laws of the lot so, unless you're counting a rifle or shotgun (nothing else is legal in the UK) purchased for recreational purposes under one of the toughest licencing regimes in the world as a defensive weapon, then you are on shaky ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_ ... ed_Kingdom

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote: I said the citizens themselves are getting tired of being defenseless victims and want guns for self defense.

The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years. But what people also want are actual guns for self defense, not just the "toys" they are currently allowed to buy.

Got a source for this?..................looks suspiciously like NRA talking points. NO DOUBT...some people want guns. That is not a skyrocket.

Provide a LINK.............. not an excuse.


Yes, literally skyrocketing, soaring, surging, increasing two and three and four times previous years, etc.

In no particular order:

http://www.dw.com wrote:
More Germans are arming themselves

27.01.2016

For weeks arms sellers and regulatory agencies have seen increased demand for gun permits. Enrollment in self-defense courses is also up. Police say that is not yet a problem.

Gun sellers say that most customers want a pistol that can fit easily into a handbag or a small drawer in the night table. "People no longer feel safe, otherwise they would not be buying so many products here," says a seller in North-Rhine Westphalia.

For the last few weeks he has been selling - like many of his colleagues - an average of three times as many alarm, gas, and signal guns as he was prior to the attacks that took place in Cologne on New Year's Eve. The attacks, which targeted women, made international headlines and raised concerns about refugees among large segments of German society.


http://www.reuters.com wrote:
Germans stock up on pepper spray and blank guns after attacks

January 8, 2016

BERLIN (Reuters) - Demand for pepper spray and blank-firing guns has surged in Germany, particularly after militant attacks in Paris in November and assaults on women in Cologne on New Year’s Eve.

Gun dealers and vendors of deterrent devices such as sprays and alarms say sales have taken off since August, when Chancellor Angela Merkel opened Germany’s borders to people fleeing war and poverty in the Middle East and Africa.

Ingo Meinhard, director of the German association of gunsmiths and specialist gun dealers, said sales of scare devices had “at least doubled” in 2015, citing telephone surveys with his members.

He said demand spiked up after the militant attacks in Paris on Nov. 13 and again after about 120 women complained of being mugged, threatened or sexually assaulted by gangs of men on New Year’s Eve in Cologne at New Year.


http://nypost.com wrote:
Europeans stocking up on guns after mass sex attacks

January 13, 2016

Europeans — especially women and cops — are stocking up on guns for personal protection in the wake of the New Year’s Eve refugee sex attacks.

The number of gun permits issued has recently quadrupled in Germany and Austria after the attacks in Cologne and Salzburg, according to the weapons industry.

“Women customers include waitresses that need to get home in the evening, and women that walk dogs regularly in the evenings. We are also seeing some coming in to buy them for their daughters,” Gerhard Fuchs, a gunsmith in Innsbruck, Austria, told Central European News.

In August, fewer than 10 people obtained a license to keep a handgun at home for self-defense, while the number soared into the hundreds in October.

Sixty percent of respondents in a poll commissioned by Viennese newspaper Heute said the influx of refugees is a cause for fear and unease.

Franz Dorfner, who owns a gun store in Vienna, said he has been unable to keep up with demand.

“I have completely sold out of pepper spray and have to wait at least a month before they can provide me with any more,” he told Central European News.


https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org wrote:
Germans Stock Up on Weapons for Self-Defense

December 21, 2015

Germans, facing an influx of more than one million asylum seekers from Africa, Asia and the Middle East, are rushing to arm themselves.

All across Germany, a country with some of the most stringent gun-control laws in Europe, demand is skyrocketing for non-lethal self-defense weapons, including pepper sprays, gas pistols, flare guns, electroshock weapons and animal repellants. Germans are also applying for weapons permits in record numbers.

The scramble to acquire weapons comes amid a migrant-driven surge in violent crimes — including rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults — in cities and towns throughout the country.


https://www.sofmag.com wrote:
Gun Sales For Self Defense Spike in France, Austria and Germany, While Illegal Guns Flow to Criminals

January 28, 2016

Many Europeans figure that the governments who are allowing uncontrolled streams of migrants into their countries are unable to protect their citizens. So they are buying guns, pepper spray and taking self defense classes to protect themselves against the surge in sexual and other attacks committed by refugees.

Shotguns have ‘virtually sold out’ in Austria as citizens rush to buy arms amid fears of a massive influx of migrants, Daily Mail reported claims that gun dealers were making in late October 2015. At that time 900,000 firearms were privately owned in a country of 8.5 million people with 70,000 of those being purchased in 2015. Many of the new gun owners are women scared of the increase in migrant sexual assaults.


http://dailycaller.com wrote:
Europeans Discover Virtues Of Armed Self-defense As EU Bureaucrats Seek New Gun Controls

02/07/2016

At the same time the European Union bureaucrats in Brussels are trying to foist further gun controls on the continent, Europeans are exhibiting a newfound interest in acquiring the tools of self-defense. Though restricted by EU mandate and often severe national gun controls, following a series of high-profile attacks on women, Europeans are buying up whatever means of protection they can still legally obtain.

The surge in interest in firearms and other self-defense products dates back several months and relates in part to European unease surrounding mass immigration from the other parts of the world. In October, Fox News and others reported a marked increase in firearm sales in Austria. In the piece, Thomas Ortner, a spokesman for Austrian gun retailers, noted, “Nearly all shotguns are sold out because you don’t need to have a firearms permit to buy them… Registration courses for pistols are usually held only every five weeks but are now held weekly.”



Edited to add Poodle's observation that the following is obsolete:

http://news.bbc.co.uk wrote:
Italy approves self-defence law

The Italian parliament has passed legislation allowing people to shoot robbers in self-defence.

The law permits the use of guns and knives by people in homes or workplaces to protect lives or belongings.

The new law will allow people to use legally registered weapons to protect themselves or others, and their property and the property of others, from harm.

Justice Minister Roberto Castelli backed the new law.

"Today criminals will have more to fear while there will be fewer problems for honest people," said Mr Castelli, who belongs to the Northern League.


Do you need more?


____________________________________________________________________________
Edited to include a correction pointed out by Poodle.
Last edited by xouper on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:18 am

How about starting with a link to the statistics rather than confusing facts with headlines?

As far as I perused.........pepper spray, alarms, blank guns, and permits are not guns......................except in your fevered and revealed false perceptions.

If you did not consider retracting your statement after doing this google catchup.................... you should be embarassed. Brick by brick......... you build your fantasy world.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How about starting with a link to the statistics rather than confusing facts with headlines?

As far as I perused.........pepper spray, alarms, blank guns, and permits are not guns.....


I didn't say they were guns.

WTF is the matter with your reading comprehension?? Been drinking again?

Here's what I said: "The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years."

And that's what you asked me to post links for. You specifically asked for a link for the word "skyrocket", which I provided.

Those stories also report that people want guns, which was my other claim.

Seriously, try to keep up with the train, booboo.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:48 am

So.............you think a posting about increases in pepper spray sales in Europe supports your moral authority for the righteous need for more deadly firearms in USA?

You think altering the context of this entire thread is...............clever. I could not do what you have just done and call myself honest.

..................but you do.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So.............you think a posting about increases in pepper spray sales in Europe supports your moral authority for the righteous need for more deadly firearms in USA?


Bobbo, stop being so willfully ignorant.

My comment about weapon sales in Europe was in response to Matthew's claim. It was not about your opening post.

Try to keep up with the train, will ya?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:21 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So.............you think a posting about increases in pepper spray sales in Europe supports your moral authority for the righteous need for more deadly firearms in USA?


Bobbo, stop being so willfully ignorant.

My comment about weapon sales in Europe was in response to Matthew's claim. It was not about your opening post.

Try to keep up with the train, will ya?

Well!..................Ha, ha...........I am totally open to I got it wrong. so I checked and found what started this wart:

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D

xouper wrote:
Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........


So..........as stated...........while the rest of us were addressing the issue, YOU dishonestly tried to defend/deflect by conflating gun rights with defensive weapons.

Again.......you may think your word play/precision is excellent and insightful word mastery. I take it as dishonest self centered manipulative BS.

I'm sure others have their own opinions all along the continuum.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So..........as stated...........while the rest of us were addressing the issue, YOU dishonestly tried to defend/deflect by conflating gun rights with defensive weapons.


I did no such thing.

It was not an attempt to deflect anything, it was merely a response to a comment made by Matthew.

I did not conflate anything. You made that mistaken inference all on your own.

Furthermore, what I did was not dishonest.

It's pathetic that you stoop to making such petulant and false accusations. Shame on you.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:29 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D


In the news today:

http://dailycaller.com wrote:
Czech President Wants Gun Rights For Europeans To Stop Terrorists

Jacob Bojesson, Foreign Correspondent, 1:16 PM 10/12/2017

Czech President Milos Zeman wants Europe to put more guns in the hands of the people to combat terrorism.

Zeman addressed the Council of Europe Tuesday to answer questions about the state of the continent. Zeman has pushed for gun rights in his own country, and he believes the rest of the continent should follow suit.

. . . The European Parliament passed a new directive to limit access to semi-automatic weapons earlier this year in response to terrorism. The Czech Republic has simultaneously moved to make guns more accessible for the very same the reason.

. . . Czech Interior Minister Milan Chovanec argues the EU directive is too harsh and the country took legal action against the EU in August. (RELATED: Czech Republic Takes Legal Action Against EU’s Attempt To Restrict Gun Rights)

“Such a massive punishment of decent arms holders is unacceptable, because banning legally-held weapons has no connection with the fight against terrorism,” Chovanec said in a statement regarding the lawsuit, according to Reuters.

http://www.breitbart.com wrote:
Czech Prez Calls for a European ‘Second Amendment’ For Self-Defence Against Terrorists

by Jack Montgomery, 12 Oct 2017

Czech president Miloš Zeman has said Europeans should “have the courage to invest in our own guns” in order to guard against international terrorism, like millions of U.S. citizens have.

The elder statesman — a veteran of the Prague Spring uprising against the old Communist regime as well as the Velvet Revolution which finally brought it down — made his comments in an address to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, an intergovernmental forum which predates the quasi-federal European Union by several years.

“The level of international crime is growing because of Islamic terrorism,” he said, in response to a question from an Armenian politician.

. . . President Zeman added: “What can we do against international criminality? Invest in the police, invest in the army, and have the courage to invest in our own guns.

. . . Czech citizens are afforded some of the most liberal gun rights in Europe, although ownership rates are not as high as in nearby Switzerland — which, unlike the Czech Republic, remains outside the European Union.

Both countries enjoy a lower homicide rate than the United Kingdom, which is experiencing a surge in gun violence despite incredibly heavy restrictions on gun ownership, . . .


So, Matthew, given the above recent development (and the previous news items I posted), would you like to revise your claim that this gun rights issue is only a problem in the US?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Poodle » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:44 pm

xouper wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk wrote:Italy approves self-defence law

The Italian parliament has passed legislation allowing people to shoot robbers in self-defence.

The law permits the use of guns and knives by people in homes or workplaces to protect lives or belongings.

The new law will allow people to use legally registered weapons to protect themselves or others, and their property and the property of others, from harm.

Justice Minister Roberto Castelli backed the new law.

"Today criminals will have more to fear while there will be fewer problems for honest people," said Mr Castelli, who belongs to the Northern League.


Do you need more?


Xouper, you really should check your sources more carefully. At the moment (ie NOW) Italy complies with EU regulations on the regulation of guns. In 2006 - the date of publication of your example - they didn't. It is NOT currently legal in Italy to shoot a robber or house-breaker in self-defence.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:12 pm

Poodle wrote:Xouper, you really should check your sources more carefully. At the moment (ie NOW) Italy complies with EU regulations on the regulation of guns. In 2006 - the date of publication of your example - they didn't. It is NOT currently legal in Italy to shoot a robber or house-breaker in self-defence.


I'll take your word for it. Scratch that one from the list.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:55 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
xouper wrote:I didn't say they were guns. WTF is the matter with your reading comprehension?? Been drinking again?

Uh huh..... :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:24 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........
xouper wrote:I didn't say they were guns. WTF is the matter with your reading comprehension?? Been drinking again?

Uh huh..... :lol:


Matthew, that was a dishonest cut and paste out of context.

Shame on you.

The first post of mine that you quoted was a reply to you.

The second one was a reply to bobbo from a different conversation.

It is dishonest of you to quote me out of context like that.

Shame on you.

Seriously, that is totally unproffesional conduct for someone who claims to be a lawyer.


For the record, here's the context:

xouper wrote:I said the citizens themselves are getting tired of being defenseless victims and want guns for self defense.

The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years. But what people also want are actual guns for self defense, not just the "toys" they are currently allowed to buy.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Got a source for this?..................looks suspiciously like NRA talking points. NO DOUBT...some people want guns. That is not a skyrocket.

Provide a LINK.............. not an excuse.


Then I provided some links as bobbo requested.

Then bobbo replied:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:As far as I perused.........pepper spray, alarms, blank guns, and permits are not guns.....
xouper wrote:I didn't say they were guns.

WTF is the matter with your reading comprehension?? Been drinking again?

Here's what I said: "The sale of defensive weapons of all kinds has been skyrocketing all over Europe in the past few years."

And that's what you asked me to post links for. You specifically asked for a link for the word "skyrocket", which I provided.

Those stories also report that people want guns, which was my other claim.


When the context is put back in, my comments have a whole different meaning than the way Matthew tried to mislead people into believing.

I did not ever say the demand for guns was skyrocketing, I said the demand for defensive weapons (which includes pepper spray, etc) was skyrocketing.

Shame on you Matthew.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:25 am

xouper wrote: Matthew, that was a dishonest cut and paste out of context.
Nope. I clearly stated that the rest of the world had no problem exploring methods of reducing gun casualties and you wrote "not so" and offered no evidence that the rest of the world was exploring methods of increasing gun casualties.

xouper wrote: Shame on you.
That's a medal of honour when Gorgeous, Salomed, Jo 753 or yourself say that. :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:13 am

xouper wrote: Matthew, that was a dishonest cut and paste out of context.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Nope.


Yep.

You clearly posted my second quote out of context. That is dishonest and is unbecoming of someone who claims to be a lawyer.


Matthew Ellard wrote: I clearly stated that the rest of the world had no problem exploring methods of reducing gun casualties and you wrote "not so"


So far so good. Except that isn't quite how you phrased it.

Here's what you actually said (yellow added by me):

Earlier in this thread, Matthew Ellard wrote:Phew...I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us  don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D


You used the phrase "these problems", presumably referring to the problems being discussed in this thread.

Thus, when I said, "not so", my intent was to refute the part in yellow.


Matthew Ellard wrote:and offered no evidence that the rest of the world was exploring methods of increasing gun casualties.


Straw Man Alert!!

Since that is not the claim I made, there is no requirement that I support it.

My claim was "There are other countries besides the US that do  seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties."

And I supported my claim with several sources, including two from today's news reports.


xouper wrote: Shame on you.
Matthew Ellard wrote:That's a medal of honour when Gorgeous, Salomed, Jo 753 or yourself say that. :lol:


You got caught making a dishonest post. That is not a medal of honour.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:44 am

xouper wrote: You clearly posted my second quote out of context. That is dishonest and is unbecoming of someone who claims to be a lawyer.
No son. You wrote "not so" to my clear sentence the rest of the world had no problem exploring methods of reducing gun casualties . You then stated "Britain, Germany and France" as you examples and then showed your "evidence" that had nothing to do with your rebuttal, implying the these countries were exploring methods of increasing gun casualties.

You can't get around that. :lol:

Here you are, stuck with your "Not so" claim to my clear statement that the rest of the world are able to explore methods of reducing gun casualties.


Were you the pro-gun, anti-Left "Logger" on the International Skeptics Forum?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:11 am

xouper wrote: You clearly posted my second quote out of context.
Matthew Ellard wrote:No son.


Yes you did. You're a {!#%@} liar.

You posted my first quote properly.

BUT, you posted my second quote out of context. That was what was dishonest.

And now you try to deflect attention from that dishonesty by focusing only on the quote you did do correctly.

OK, let's look at that too.


Matthew Ellard wrote: You wrote "not so" to my clear sentence the rest of the world had no problem exploring methods of reducing gun casualties .


And I already explained what I meant by "not so".

I was not referring to the part you bolded (which you only did after I responded the first time). I was replying to the part in yellow, as I already explained.

You do not get to put words in my mouth. You made that straw man all by yourself.

If there is any ambiguity about how to interpret what I said, whose interpretation is correct?

Answer: Not yours.

I am the only one here who knows what I intended to say. Not you.


Matthew Ellard wrote: You then stated "Britain, Germany and France" as you examples and then showed your "evidence" that had nothing to do with your rebuttal, implying the these countries were exploring methods of increasing gun casualties.


Straw Man Alert!!

You're a {!#%@} liar.

I already explained I did not make that claim.

In any case, I did post evidence that other countries do have a problem trying to reduce gun casualties.

Here are some more:

Mass shooting, Paris France, November 2015, 130 dead, 413 injured
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks

Mass shooting, Paris France, January 2015, 17 dead, 22 injured
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_%C3%8Ele-de-France_attacks

Those two all by themselves refute your claim that the US is the only country trying to reduce gun casualties.

Suck it, Matthew, you are wrong, and the evidence clearly shows it.


Matthew Ellard wrote:Were you the pro-gun, anti-Left "Logger" on the International Skeptics Forum?


No, that is not me. I have never posted on that forum.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:17 am

xouper wrote: Yes you did. You're a {!#%@} liar.
Nope. Are you going the threaten me again with a flame war, like the other thread? :lol:

Matthew Ellard previously wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........


Tsk tsk tsk..... So the "rest of us" on the planet are not exploring methods of reducing gun casualties? Gosh, that evidence you provided in the thread for England, Germany and France really supported your rebuttal didn't it? (Sarcasm)

Tsk tsk tsk... :lol:
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:53 am

xouper wrote: Yes you did. You're a {!#%@} liar.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Nope. Are you going the threaten me again with a flame war, like the other thread? :lol:


Let the flames begin, Pinnochio.


Matthew Ellard previously wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........


Yes, I made two claims there.

1. Contrary to your claim, the US is not the only country that seems to have problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties.

And I supported that claim with irrefutable facts. Paris, France. So suck it, Matthew, you are wrong.

2. I claimed that Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense.

And I supplied evidence for that claim too.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:15 am

Matthew Ellard previously wrote:I'm glad this thread is only about the USA. The rest of us don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense..........


xouper wrote:Yes, I made two claims there.
The most hilarious being "Not So" as you fantasize the rest of us (countries) are not exploring methods to reduce gun casualties.

xouper wrote:And I supported that claim with irrefutable facts. Paris, France. So suck it, Matthew, you are wrong.
So France, England and Germany are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:

Tsk tsk tsk...... :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:59 am

xouper wrote:Yes, I made two claims there.
Matthew Ellard wrote:The most hilarious being "Not So" as you fantasize the rest of us (countries) are not exploring methods to reduce gun casualties.


No fantasy. It is a fact those countries are indeed having a problem exploring methods to reduce gun casualties.

One of the problems is that gun casualties keep happening in spite of efforts to prevent them. Their "explorations" into methods to reduce gun casualties are not producing the desired results. They are indeed having the same problems the US is having in exploring those methods.

Secondly, there is increasing demand from the people for more gun rights, which directly interferes with the government proposed solutions to reduce gun casualties. So again, they are having the same problems the US is having in exploring those methods.

So, contrary to your claim, those countries are struggling to reduce gun casualties.


xouper wrote:And I supported that claim with irrefutable facts. Paris, France. So suck it, Matthew, you are wrong.
Pinnochio wrote: So France, England and Germany are exploring methods to increase gun casualties? :lol:


Straw Man Alert!!

I have repeatedly explained that is not what I said, and you know it. Stop being an asshat, Pinnochio.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:31 am

Xouper: straight up: If Japan or Europe wants fewer deaths from guns, do you think they should make guns more accessible to the public or not?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Xouper: straight up: If Japan or Europe wants fewer deaths from guns, do you think they should make guns more accessible to the public or not?


Straight up: I don't have enough information to make that prediction. I can imagine how it can go either way.

Data from the US are not helpful in answering this question because in comparing the numbers for each state, there is no correlation between per capita gun ownership and homicide rate. For example, Vermont has one of the highest levels of gun ownership (not to mention you don't need a permit for concealed carry), and yet the gun homicide rate is one of the lowest in the country. Seems there is some other dominant factor causing that result.

In the UK, for example, when they banned handguns, for many years after, the gun homicide rate went up, then began a long steady decline, but recently has been going back up again. But that fact may not be useful because the UK already had very low per capita handgun ownership. After the handgun ban, other forms of violence also went up. The handgun ban in the UK didn't seem to produce the result they wanted, so why not let the people have their handguns back for self defense.

However, I will add that reducing deaths from guns is not the only factor to consider in making gun policy.

A factor that seems to be of increasing relevance in Europe is the rising demand by the people for the right to self defense against what appears to be a rising crime rate.

Another factor that seems relevant is that in Europe the number of illegal guns going to criminals appears to be rising, and it seems the people are starting to think its not fair they can't have a gun too, to level the playing field, so to speak.

When seconds count, such as when someone is being assaulted, the police are mere minutes away.

Does that answer your question?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:10 am

No.

Imagine for us how increasing the number of guns would decrease the number of deaths.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:No.


So I wrote all that for nothing? I'll keep that in mind for next time.


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Imagine for us how increasing the number of guns would decrease the number of deaths.


Look at the Vermont example I cited. More guns and fewer gun homicides.

Why? I don't know. Maybe it has nothing at all to do with how many guns there are.

Does that answer your question?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:29 am

Yes.

Quote: "I don't know."

........................sums it up.

Your initial response did not answer the question at all thereby earning the No response. Deflecting to the entirely imagined "desire to have guns" as an answer to whether or not government policy should allow more guns is so like you: completely irrelevant. "I don't Know" is also shabby.... but at least on point.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes.

Quote: "I don't know."

........................sums it up.

Your initial response did not answer the question at all thereby earning the No response. Deflecting to the entirely imagined "desire to have guns" as an answer to whether or not government policy should allow more guns is so like you: completely irrelevant. "I don't Know" is also shabby.... but at least on point.


Let the record show that bobbo's so-called "straight up" question, was in fact not a sincere question at all.

It was merely a ruse to get me to post an answer that he could ridicule, regardless what I might have answered.

My very first answer was "I don't know . . . does that answer the question?"

And then he says no.

So my next answer was "I don't know . . . does that answer the question?"

And then he says yes.

So, {!#%@} him. He's just a {!#%@} troll. Always has been, always will be.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:13 am

I had to reread. That is a fair criticism. I should have said to the first posting the same as I did to the second.

What through me off was "over remembering" and responding mostly to the second half of your response rather than what you started with. Your first post was longer than the second leading to that disconnect on my part.

Glad we are able to clear that up. You make claims you can't support. Why don't you recognize that rather than whine about having it pointed out?
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:23 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You make claims you can't support.


I didn't make a claim, I answered a question.

Stoopid troll.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:51 am

Simple basic language/thinking skills: Claim: "Look at the Vermont example I cited. More guns and fewer gun homicides."

Your support: "Why? I don't know. "

Its a good example of throwing {!#%@} on the wall and seeing what sticks. Except, you whine like a 7 year old when it doesn't stick.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:02 am

bobbo_the_troll wrote:Claim: "Look at the Vermont example I cited. More guns and fewer gun homicides."


Troll confuses statement of a well-known fact with a claim that cannot be supported.

Stoopid troll.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:47 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: The rest of us ( non-USA) don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote: Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense.
Nonsensical reply identified ....followed by....
xouper subsequently wrote: No fantasy. It is a fact those (non-USA) countries are indeed having a problem exploring methods to reduce gun casualties.


You're mad as a hatter. The rest of the world has explored methods and has reduced gun casualties. It's called gun control. :lol:

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:26 am

Pinnochio wrote:The rest of us ( non-USA) don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote: Not so. Europeans are increasingly demanding their gun rights for self defense.
Pinnochio wrote:Nonsensical reply identified ....followed by....
xouper subsequently wrote: No fantasy. It is a fact those (non-USA) countries are indeed having a problem exploring methods to reduce gun casualties.
Pinnochio wrote:You're mad as a hatter. The rest of the world has explored methods and has reduced gun casualties. It's called gun control. :lol:


And how well has that been working out for Europe?

Not so good. They have not done a good enough job "exploring".

Fact: There have been more mass shooting deaths in France than in the US in the past two years.

Fact: With violent crime on the rise, more and more Europeans are fed up with being defenseless victims because of so-called "gun control". I posted sufficient evidence for that fact.

Clearly, Europe is still having a problem reducing violent crime and gun casualties in particular. Their "gun control" is not having the effect they hoped for.

Or how about Mexico or Brazil, both of which still have a much higher rate of gun homicides than the US despite fewer guns per capita? In fact many countries have a much worse problem with gun casualties than the US.

Sorry, Pinnochio, but your claim otherwise is refuted by the facts.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:56 am

Pinnochio wrote:The rest of us ( non-USA) don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:And how well has that been working out for Europe?
Really well. When was their last mass shooting using modified automatic weapons? :lol:

But as you said, you can't suggest anything to reduce USA gun casualties so we can continue to ignore your input [i]as totally useless. [/i]

(PS Love you changing my name. David the holocaust denier also does that in the anti-Holocaust denial threads. Is he a friend of yours? ) :D

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:35 am

X offers an interesting statement: "Fact: There have been more mass shooting deaths in France than in the US in the past two years."

A quick google turns up this might be true: https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/compa ... nd-europe/

Don't know what stripping the total gun deaths down in the mechanism they use "really" misses.......could be valid, maybe not. but looking at the link at the Crime Prevention Research Center we find stilted studies labeled "Arming yourself against gun control lies" which I can almost accept.....but then there is: "More Guns, Less Crime."

I don't buy the website. While claiming the opposite, it "looks like" an NRA Fudge Site.....perhaps a trolling booth to secure donations from gun nutters? Feeding the trolls and nutters with every specially created "study."
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:21 am

Pinnochio wrote:The rest of us ( non-USA) don't seem to have these problems in exploring methods to reduce gun casualties. :D
xouper wrote:And how well has that been working out for Europe?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Really well. When was their last mass shooting using modified automatic weapons? :lol:


November 2015, Paris France, where they used Russian AKM fully automatic assault rifles.

You can now wipe that silly grin off your face, Pinnochio.

When was the last mass shooting in the US using modified automatic weapons?

There were no automatic weapons in the recent Las Vegas shooting, or in any mass shooting in the US the past few decades.

For the record, here is a comparison between the AKM and the American AR-15:

The AKM is fully automatic and uses 7.62 mm rounds (similar to a .30 calibre round)
The AR-15 not fully automatic and uses 5.56 mm rounds (similar to a .22 calibre round)

Apparently you didn't notice when I posted this previously:

Mass shooting, Paris France, November 2015, 130 dead, 413 injured
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks

Mass shooting, Paris France, January 2015, 17 dead, 22 injured
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_%C3%8Ele-de-France_attacks

That's far more casualties in Paris than in the US in the past two years.

Quite clearly, gun control in France did not prevent those gun casualties.

But according to you, that's doing "really well".

And how about Mexico and Brazil? How is their gun control working out?

I guess according to you a gun murder rate five times higher than the US (and with fewer guns) is doing "really well".

Sorry, Pinnochio, but the facts prove you are wrong on this one.


Matthew Ellard wrote:(PS Love you changing my name. David the holocaust denier also does that in the anti-Holocaust denial threads. Is he a friend of yours? ) :D


No. I don't know him. I'm not a member of that subforum. I have a strong dislike for holocaust deniers.

I also have a strong dislike for liars, Pinocchio.


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