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A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:09 pm
by Tom Palven
Found this article by Frank Furedi in Spiked News to be interesting.
http://www.spiked-online.com/spiked-rev ... OI5lvWcGUk

If a picture is worth 1,000 words, here are thousands of words on deference:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ge ... &FORM=IGRE

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:22 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Not going to give us a reason to chase those links?

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:50 pm
by Tom Palven
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Not going to give us a reason to chase those links?


I said that I found the link interesting.

If that's not enough reason for you or anyone else to make the less-than-Herculean effort to click on the link, then that's just the way it is and I won't lose any sleep over it.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:51 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Tom Palven wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Not going to give us a reason to chase those links?


I said that I found the link interesting.

If that's not enough reason for you or anyone else to make the less-than-Herculean effort to click on the link, then that's just the way it is and I won't lose any sleep over it.

You don't sell it much.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:32 pm
by Cadmusteeth
I'm skeptical as to how interesting it actually is. I go by experiance that just placing some link out and saying it's interesting, does not actually generate interest.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:22 pm
by Nobrot
I'm not entirely sure what deference is, so I'll go with the consensus.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:05 am
by scrmbldggs
FAKE MEANING!

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
by OutOfBreath
Skimmed the start of it. Vaguely interesting but a bit too postmodern to me. More interested in attacking elites and their stretching of truth than establishing what truth would be. Pataphrased: "Since truth is relative and they have power what is claimed as truth is only their truth". I find such reasoning problematic and symptomatic for the state of things.

Peace
Dan

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:15 pm
by Tom Palven
OutOfBreath wrote:Skimmed the start of it. Vaguely interesting but a bit too postmodern to me. More interested in attacking elites and their stretching of truth than establishing what truth would be. Pataphrased: "Since truth is relative and they have power what is claimed as truth is only their truth". I find such reasoning problematic and symptomatic for the state of things.

Peace
Dan


The problem as I see it is that the CIA and other secret police invent the truth at the behest of the State Dept. and Deep State, toadies at the Associated Press and other MSM print it as the truth, and even so-called skeptics and anti-war activists defer to the powers-that-be and accept their version of truth.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:21 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
TP: I wasn't interested in the link until your last post.

EVERY SINGLE FRICKING POST HERE is made because the author thinks it/he is "interesting." So..... WHY is it interesting if you have any interest in having an interesting discussion rather than a collective huzza from those you think should follow you just because you say so.

Ego much?

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:01 pm
by Tom Palven
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TP: I wasn't interested in the link until your last post.

EVERY SINGLE FRICKING POST HERE is made because the author thinks it/he is "interesting." So..... WHY is it interesting if you have any interest in having an interesting discussion rather than a collective huzza from those you think should follow you just because you say so.

Ego much?


This isn't about me, Bobbo. How about we just discuss the issue?

Joel Whitney, a guy with extraordinary credentials, makes the case in Finks that there aren't two CIAs, one that cares about Human Trafficking and widows and orphans, and another that specializes in disinformation and in killing emerging democracies and their leaders and creating widows and orphans; that there is just one CIA with one control freak agenda.

That's the subject at hand. If you want to drink Deep State Kool-Aid or tell me why Whitney and Frank Furedi are wrong, go ahead, but why try to deflect the issue and make it all about me?

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:47 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
agggh! More either/or (thinking/presentation) to hide the (real/other) issues.

Initially, you posted a link which is meaningless by itself. Then the only substantive writing added was that it was "interesting" which in context can only mean "interesting to yourself." So.... on this evicence/presentation alone, how is this post about anything other than YOUR appreciation of whatever the link is about?

See the VALUE of providing the desired CONTEXT to OP's?

Anyway.....still not having read the link......I already know its wrong/fabricated/not but artifice along the either/or fallacy intro'd above. Could it be the CIA does many and varied things...... even more than two? "In reality"..... its unavoidable, for such is the complexity of life. xxxxxxx Ha, ha......I do crack myself up. Just reread your post for the accuracy of my analysis and see that I am 100% wrong and right at the same time. Ain't that something?

Well, we all know the CIA "by definition" is only ONE organization. Your op identifies two shards in nice contrapose. Such symmetry always a construct with its truth in poetry, not fact. Given this analysis, any label that includes both activities will be rather................................................. "useless?" Pick any label you want: it won't work, so any analysis after that is purely word play or wholly irrelevant. What is control freakish about "caring" about widows and orphans?

Makes no sense.

Tell us more about yourself.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:14 am
by Tom Palven
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tell us more about yourself.


As I said, it's not about me, Bobbo.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:21 am
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
TP: you go for the punch line to a joke?

Tsk, tsk....... "What we have here is, failure to engage."

But, I'll drop it now and since you did not respond to anything substantive, I'll wait for anyone else to push your interests forward.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:32 pm
by OutOfBreath
Tom Palven wrote:The problem as I see it is that the CIA and other secret police invent the truth at the behest of the State Dept. and Deep State, toadies at the Associated Press and other MSM print it as the truth, and even so-called skeptics and anti-war activists defer to the powers-that-be and accept their version of truth.

You seem to complain about "spin". Something to factor into everything you hear, and a problem as old as politics itself.

I dont see that as sufficient cause to go full "all truth is subjective and relative". (a favoured stratagem by russian authorities these days. Oh and Trump of course)

Peace
Dan

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:58 pm
by Tom Palven
OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:The problem as I see it is that the CIA and other secret police invent the truth at the behest of the State Dept. and Deep State, toadies at the Associated Press and other MSM print it as the truth, and even so-called skeptics and anti-war activists defer to the powers-that-be and accept their version of truth.

You seem to complain about "spin". Something to factor into everything you hear, and a problem as old as politics itself.

I dont see that as sufficient cause to go full "all truth is subjective and relative". (a favoured stratagem by russian authorities these days. Oh and Trump of course)

Peace
Dan



I don't know how I gave the impression that I believe that "all truth is subjective and relative" because I believe the opposite, and I think that the authors I cited do, too.

Facts are facts. Evolution is no more just a theory than the Earth revolving around the Sun is just a theory.

When I say that the CIA invents the truth with its disinformation campaigns I guess I'm just being facetious about the word truth in that context, and I'll try to avoid that in the future.

And I also think that moral relativism is BS; that coercion is unethical, even for "the greater good."

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:53 am
by Tom Palven
This article on Compliance was written by Glenn Greenwald and published in The Guardian several years ago.

Compliance goes hand-in-hand with deference.

Greenwald may be the greatest enemy of authoritarianism since Murray Rothbard died.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ty-failure

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:31 am
by TJrandom
Tom Palven wrote:... The problem as I see it is that the CIA and other secret police invent the truth at the behest of the State Dept. and Deep State, toadies at the Associated Press and other MSM print it as the truth, and even so-called skeptics and anti-war activists defer to the powers-that-be and accept their version of truth.


Just your opinion there Tom? Or do you have proof of this `truth invention` by the CIA and `other secret police` at the behest of the State Dept.? That is a rather long chain of actors to keep hidden, so if true there should be rather robust evidence - claims, court cases, etc.

Re: A Revolt Against Deference

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:53 am
by Tom Palven
TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:... The problem as I see it is that the CIA and other secret police invent the truth at the behest of the State Dept. and Deep State, toadies at the Associated Press and other MSM print it as the truth, and even so-called skeptics and anti-war activists defer to the powers-that-be and accept their version of truth.


Just your opinion there Tom? Or do you have proof of this `truth invention` by the CIA and `other secret police` at the behest of the State Dept.? That is a rather long chain of actors to keep hidden, so if true there should be rather robust evidence - claims, court cases, etc.


It wasn't until President Obama acknowledged that the CIA and British MI6 overthrew the only democratically-elected leader and parliament in a Mid-Eastern Muslim country with Operation Ajax that CIA records on the subject were turned over.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB435/

Now, with WikiLeaks and other sources, there are tons of information about the CIA and it's activities by established, credible, authors on the CIA and its activities including its disinformation campaigns, not just my opinion.
You might start with William Blum's Freeing the World to Death.
https://williamblum.org/books/freeing-t ... d-to-death