Dunning

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JO 753
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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:11 pm

Score!

Edited to add: DAMIT! I hate it wen its the next paje and I gotta recap so future readerz dont hav to go back to the previous paje just to see wut the post wuz about!!!!

Norma had a lame off topic fossil Youtube link to Luie Armstrong. Without even knowing wut it wuz I put a link to Operation Mindcrime, wich at least haz sum tenuous relation to the topic - persuasive speaker influencing a larj group, betrayal, possibly FTHz feeling a little like Nicky - and bet that my link woud be much more appropriate.
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Re: Dunning

Postby clarsct » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:37 am

Hmmmm.

I am skeptical that skeptics are any smarter, or more moral, than any other group of people. Skepticism is a process, not an attribute. Thus, you find people who are skeptical of UFOs but not Bigfoot.

As for the Golden Rule, it is the start of the Categorical Imperative. If you have done unto others, then you are, in fact, saying it is okay to do the same unto you.
It's about fairness more than justice, in the whole.

As for the scammers, we all get scammed at some point. I bought a computer with Windows 8 on it, for example. Trust, but verify.

Sorry to hear, FTH. The thing to do now is learn, and check into any person or organization that wants your money. You'd check out a roofing contractor, yes?


Just a thought or two...
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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:01 am

Yeah, I'm not actually angry about kicking him a few dollars. At my self, perhaps. It was maybe fifty bucks. That's pretty miniscule. Not a real care for the monetary amount. It's really just the idea that a scammer does a show on how to prevent being scammed. But really, I do not like dishonesty and thievery. I value my good will towards others, and hate a {!#%@} that preys on that in people. But I didn't really get scammed more than I just feel a bit scammed

I am genuinely surprised, and disheartened that more people don't get my real beef with the guy. My fifty bucks doesn't bother me. The idea that this is supposedly a spokes...

Ah, {!#%@} it, man. You guys are right. We shouldn't expect honesty from people anymore. So 1900s. or whatever. Let's just do cat pictures or something.

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Re: Dunning

Postby clarsct » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:15 am

Sorry, man. I was a cynic the day I was born and have more than my fair share of misanthropy. I wish I could say I was shocked or outraged, but people suck, largely.

I like persons. Persons can be witty and charming and delightful. People are easily led, panicked, and are horrible, in general. I have not yet resolved this paradox.

I simply find the good persons in my life, and cherish them. They are few, and more precious than gold.

The rest can go back the way they came. I'm usually willing to help them along their way, in fact. Sometimes I help pretty hard.

In the meantime, have a sandwich with a friend or family member. Good for the soul, and you might as well do so while you and they have time.

And who doesn't like a good sandwich?
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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:32 am

clarsct wrote:I wish I could say I was shocked or outraged, but people suck, largely.



I'm also not shocked... no... disgusted is more like it.

It doesn't shock me. How could it. I would have had to live in a secluded cave without any contact to the world for quite some time for something like that to shock me. I'm as accustomed, or rather, numbed to it as most people.

It's common, everyday fare. These days.

Not sure if it's newer behavior in the current extend. Or if it's because of ease of access to information. Or the need for the negative to sell the news, or whatever. But it's no longer the way it used to be, seemed to be... some years ago.
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Re: Dunning

Postby clarsct » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:31 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
clarsct wrote:I wish I could say I was shocked or outraged, but people suck, largely.



I'm also not shocked... no... disgusted is more like it.

It doesn't shock me. How could it. I would have had to live in a secluded cave without any contact to the world for quite some time for something like that to shock me. I'm as accustomed, or rather, numbed to it as most people.

It's common, everyday fare. These days.

Not sure if it's newer behavior in the current extend. Or if it's because of ease of access to information. Or the need for the negative to sell the news, or whatever. But it's no longer the way it used to be, seemed to be... some years ago.

The scammers can hit more people at once. Used to be they were confined to large cities or neighborhoods, because they would be given short shrift in short order in smaller communities.

We used to have one baker, one butcher, one blackmith...so we had to trust one another, and everyone had to do good work. A farmer that throws a bad shoe on his horse isn't likely to trade wheat with the blacksmith, now is he? It was a self-correcting system. Now we have thousands of bakers, so the crooks can run amok, to a certain degree. There's always a bigger sucker out there.

We stopped having small tribes and became global before we evolved methods of dealing with that change.
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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:30 am

Haz alot to do with the draw backs uv our artificial cooperation invention known az 'money'.
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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:51 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
clarsct wrote:I wish I could say I was shocked or outraged, but people suck, largely.



also not shoI'mcked... no... disgusted is more like it.

It doesn't shock me. How could it. I would have had to live in a secluded cave without any contact to the world for quite some time for something like that to shock me. I'm as accustomed, or rather, numbed to it as most people.


.
Ah… the old Eggs, i knew and admired. Irony with a bit of sarcasm.
LOL….
I've forgotten. Where exactly IS your cave?
(No, no, joking, joking.. just a bit of old fashioned banter…)

But seriously? I had no idea you were such a social animal..
YOu should really come down to Baja tomorrow for the surf fishing….. and of course the best part which is cooking of the catch…. or the menu when there has been no catch.
Fun crowd, a variety of skin shades , sizes, lots of happy kids..
Great food.
Good talk…
Terrific music.
Right down your human contact alley.



t's common, everyday fare. These days.


Oh, I don't know, Eggs.
Yesterday , a young man, a total stranger, ran across the street because he saw me having difficulty getting my garbage bin to the curb. He then put all three of my containers out for me, and left before I could thank him.
And last week I carelessly left a book behind on a table in the in an inner city library, with a ten dollar bill, sticking out from the from cover, and a man ran after me to return it….
A physician friend of mine, and his midwife nurse practitioner are leaving on Sunday for Nigeria where they spend their usual vacation times to work in an obstetrics clinic….

And I myself, selfish to the bone, haven't killed anyone yet.
Nor have I stolen candy from children.
And I can't remember when I lat took advantage of anyone old or lame.
Occasionally even I, the Wild Witch in the West, rouse myself from my moral torpor to be kind to the young and hale… nothing excessive, perhaps just failing to humiliate them.
As far as I know… and I know a lot, as I am not estranged from my children… they have managed to avoid lives of crime, or taking what doesn't belong to them as well.
Great omens for the survival of the species?
No. Anecdotal at best.
But just reminders that humans do have the potential for good…. and the fact is that most of do not hit each other over the head with clubs, or steal from our neighbors or go into movie theaters to randomly slay those watching the violent film.

MOST people don't even shoot each other.
And in fact MOST people in the modern world don't even own guns…
And only use their knives for cutting steak.


Not sure if it's newer behavior in the current extend. Or if it's because of ease of access to information. Or the need for the negative to sell the news, or whatever. But it's no longer the way it used to be, seemed to be… some years ago.


Spoken like a true Church Lady…. one can almost see the pursed lips and the jaundiced eye: oh, the days of yore, when the pews were filled, and there was no crime, children spoke when spoken to, and we all knew our place and kept to it.
LOL…. how long ago exactly, Eggs?
How far back ARE those delightful good old days?
Those halcyon days when you might have lived with no complaint whatever.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:18 pm

nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:...

[I]t's common, everyday fare. These days.


Oh, I don't know, Eggs.
Yesterday , a young man, a total stranger, ran across the street because he saw me having difficulty getting my garbage bin to the curb. He then put all three of my containers out for me, and left before I could thank him.
And last week I carelessly left a book behind on a table in the in an inner city library, with a ten dollar bill, sticking out from the from cover, and a man ran after me to return it….
A physician friend of mine, and his midwife nurse practitioner are leaving on Sunday for Nigeria where they spend their usual vacation times to work in an obstetrics clinic….

And I myself, selfish to the bone, haven't killed anyone yet.
Nor have I stolen candy from children.
And I can't remember when I lat took advantage of anyone old or lame.
Occasionally even I, the Wild Witch in the West, rouse myself from my moral torpor to be kind to the young and hale… nothing excessive, perhaps just failing to humiliate them.
As far as I know… and I know a lot, as I am not estranged from my children… they have managed to avoid lives of crime, or taking what doesn't belong to them as well.
Great omens for the survival of the species?
No. Anecdotal at best.
But just reminders that humans do have the potential for good…. and the fact is that most of do not hit each other over the head with clubs, or steal from our neighbors or go into movie theaters to randomly slay those watching the violent film.

MOST people don't even shoot each other.
And in fact MOST people in the modern world don't even own guns…
And only use their knives for cutting steak.

...

NMB

In a way you've answered your earlier question:
nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:For some time now I've come to the conviction that shrewd cunning and large scale deception actually is not just treated leniently, but actually being rewarded.

I can't find anything ethical about defrauding others and wouldn't want to participate. Or being the victim of it. But the latter seems unavoidable these days. Whatever you need or are required to have, you're at the mercy of ever changing rules and laws that weren't, and aren't gonna be, in your favor.


Beg pardon?

NMB
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=24475#p426345

I wasn't talking about the you and me and every neighbor and person one meets in the (now very) busy streets, etc.

I was speaking of the less than ethical behavior of corporations, companies and, yes, individuals, who scam and fraud big time.

And often with the help of the law.

And, sadly, are even admired for it.


If it's a measly ten bucks, you're a scumbag. If it's 10 million, it's, How may I help you? And especially if you're a god-fearing and right-eous member.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:45 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:...

[I]t's common, everyday fare. These days.


Oh, I don't know, Eggs.
Yesterday , a young man, a total stranger, ran across the street because he saw me having difficulty getting my garbage bin to the curb. He then put all three of my containers out for me, and left before I could thank him.
And last week I carelessly left a book behind on a table in the in an inner city library, with a ten dollar bill, sticking out from the from cover, and a man ran after me to return it….
A physician friend of mine, and his midwife nurse practitioner are leaving on Sunday for Nigeria where they spend their usual vacation times to work in an obstetrics clinic….

And I myself, selfish to the bone, haven't killed anyone yet.
Nor have I stolen candy from children.
And I can't remember when I lat took advantage of anyone old or lame.
Occasionally even I, the Wild Witch in the West, rouse myself from my moral torpor to be kind to the young and hale… nothing excessive, perhaps just failing to humiliate them.
As far as I know… and I know a lot, as I am not estranged from my children… they have managed to avoid lives of crime, or taking what doesn't belong to them as well.
Great omens for the survival of the species?
No. Anecdotal at best.
But just reminders that humans do have the potential for good…. and the fact is that most of do not hit each other over the head with clubs, or steal from our neighbors or go into movie theaters to randomly slay those watching the violent film.

MOST people don't even shoot each other.
And in fact MOST people in the modern world don't even own guns…
And only use their knives for cutting steak.

...

NMB

In a way you've answered your earlier question:
nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:For some time now I've come to the conviction that shrewd cunning and large scale deception actually is not just treated leniently, but actually being rewarded.

I can't find anything ethical about defrauding others and wouldn't want to participate. Or being the victim of it. But the latter seems unavoidable these days. Whatever you need or are required to have, you're at the mercy of ever changing rules and laws that weren't, and aren't gonna be, in your favor.


Beg pardon?

NMB
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=24475#p426345

I wasn't talking about the you and me and every neighbor and person one meets in the (now very) busy streets, etc.

I was speaking of the less than ethical behavior of corporations, companies and, yes, individuals, who scam and fraud big time.

And often with the help of the law.

And, sadly, are even admired for it.


If it's a measly ten bucks, you're a scumbag. If it's 10 million, it's, How may I help you? And especially if you're a god-fearing and right-eous member.


Yes, our society, the so called "democratic Capitalism" within which we live, is certainly going through a bad patch… one which was predicted by John Maynard Keynes even as his theories were utilized to save it at the end of the Roaring Twenties and as we foundered dangerously during the Great Depression..
(I recently reread a history of the first half of he 20th Century by Eric Hobsbawm, the Marxist historian which whom I don't often agree, in which he didn't predict, but described what we in America would be like in the 21st Cnetury… and it was unpleasantly omniscient.)
I , much like you, read all the books, all the articles, and am troubled by what I see, hear, and even smell, in our polluted and degraded environment as well… including our decrepit infrastructure that gives us the look and feel of a Third World country….
(Our airports alone, visually and technologically more primitive and more unattractive even than those of much poorer less productive countries should be enough to give us pause about our capabilities for adaptation,)
The signs are indeed mostly negative, particularly the now shocking economic disparity, the unmitigated racism that is used to prevent the realization that caste and class are what ails us rather than racial differences,
The much too easily stirred up populaces to pointless, even synthetic wars …. and the specter of the Holocaust of 1932-1945 which above all and foever, certainly did show us that humans are capable of cool and deliberate, mechanized extermination rather than the indiscriminate slaughter that was so discouraging in our pasts…
Such omens are hardly conducive to optimism.
But I'm no sure what there is to be gained by complaining about it constantly and laying all of it in the laps of others… rather than taking some responsibility for the degradation ourselves.
I'm not doing anything about it….which in great part denies me the right to complain at all, much less than with the ferocity and misanthropy that I see here in this Forum.

So as the thoughtful and intelligent person that you obviously are, do you have a suggestion for me… a contribution I might make toward the creation of a more equable and economically viable society?
Humming "We Shall Overcome" is hardly going to crack it, either…
But getting out of my chair, isn't that easy for me now…. it takes two hours of stretch therapy for me to be able, as I am about to do no, walk around the block.

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:08 pm

No, sadly, no solution here. My way is to simply do within my sphere the best I can with what I've got. And stick to what I say I'll do, unless there would be very compelling reasons to change my course. But not without due consideration... and notification.

And which essentially is the point of this thread, is it not?

A someone "in our sphere" who claims to be one thing, and is making money with it, admitting to be another thing altogether - but only after having been found out.


____________________________________
Austin, btw, mentioned earlier he does like some parts of the program, and which made me think about that. And later I came across a comment by a poster on another site who wrote something to the extend that the program had improved since others now were writing much, or some, of the material. That cracked me up!
.

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:46 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:No, sadly, no solution here. My way is to simply do within my sphere the best I can with what I've got. And stick to what I say I'll do, unless there would be very compelling reasons to change my course. But not without due consideration...

And which essentially is the point of this thread, no?

A someone "in our sphere" who claims to be one thing, and making money with it, admitting to be another thing altogether - but only after having been found out.


____________________________________
Austin, btw, mentioned earlier he does like some parts of the program, and which made me think. And later I came across a comment by a poster on a blog who wrote something to the extend that the program had improved since others now were writing much, or some, of the material. That cracked me up!


You are much to cryptic for me, I'm afraid… and I have no idea what you are talking about.
And sometimes I doubt that I ever did.
But here I am to give it another shot:
WHO in what sphere claims to be one thing and then admitting to be something else??
And for what reason?
Is it in the nature of a plot against the state, against White folks?
Or just a general threat to mankind?
If you don't name names, raising the subject is just innuendo, could be dangerous (I mean people here have been lynched for lesser crimes than dissembling about their identities) and is certainly, if unproven, libelous.

Are you okay?
I sense that you are having a really hard time, and whatever it is has affected your once normal (and admired) way of expressing your thoughts, including the more controversial.

Meanwhile, I recently found this little vignette (of sorts) on YouTube: and while it is too much to hope that such a small thing could restore your equilibrium, perhaps it will cheer up up even for a moment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-4uKgXRnpI

Really.
Norma
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:08 pm

clarsct wrote:Hmmmm.

I am skeptical that skeptics are any smarter, or more moral, than any other group of people. Skepticism is a process, not an attribute. Thus, you find people who are skeptical of UFOs but not Bigfoot.

As for the Golden Rule, it is the start of the Categorical Imperative. If you have done unto others, then you are, in fact, saying it is okay to do the same unto you.
It's about fairness more than justice, in the whole.

As for the scammers, we all get scammed at some point. I bought a computer with Windows 8 on it, for example. Trust, but verify.

Sorry to hear, FTH. The thing to do now is learn, and check into any person or organization that wants your money. You'd check out a roofing contractor, yes?


Just a thought or two…


Sorry I missed this, because I am always so happy to agree with, or find actually interesting, anything I have read here lately,

What you have left out is that it is less the existence of scammers that makes reason so elusive, whether one accepts the idea of god or not… but the failure, the adamant resistance to taking responsibility for one's error (s).
Who is to blame for a grown man sending money to a charlatan because he asked for the money? For whatever reason he used to justify to himself the gesture of confidence?
What is the whining really all about?
That the generous but foolish benefactor couldn't find anyone to blame for his gaffe?

I bet on a horse at the track the other day… I am don't usually do that, but I was there with a friend, we went down to the paddock to look at a most beautiful horse, I had some money, the odds were incredible, I laid my 20 bucks down on Fabled Boy to place.
Fabled Boy came in 8th in a field of 9.
Of course my instinct was to rush to my computer, and post, right here in the Skeptic Forum, my sad story about the unreliable nature of equines and Fabled Boy in particular.
And then, the possible dishonesty of horse racing in general, while demanding that all the race tracks in America be shut down forthwith.
I was also looking forward to having 6 (presumably) adults get involved in a ridiculous back and forth devoted to "the problem."
But I resisted the impulse because…. gee, I dunno… maybe because I had to face up to the undeniable: that no one had held a gun to my head to make me do such a silly wasteful thing as bet money on .. of all things… a {!#%@} horse!!

A utile rule for life, I think, is that one should always have in the wings, someone or something to blame our errors, accidents and flops on.
Always.
Poor judgment, clumsiness, failure, is always less painful that way… there is nothing so depressing as having only oneself to blame…
(Wasn't "my wife won't let me" invented as just such a worthy cause?)

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:48 pm

nmblum wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:..

And which essentially is the point of this thread, no?

A someone "in our sphere" who claims to be one thing, and making money with it, admitting to be another thing altogether - but only after having been found out.

...


You are much to cryptic for me, I'm afraid… and I have no idea what you are talking about.
And sometimes I doubt that I ever did.
But here I am to give it another shot:
WHO in what sphere claims to be one thing and then admitting to be something else??
And for what reason?

This thread. About Brian Dunning. Who had to confess to fraud in court because it was uncovered he's engaged in it? (My words to describe how I understood the situation.)


Are you okay?
I sense that you are having a really hard time, and whatever it is has affected your once normal (and admired) way of expressing your thoughts, including the more controversial.

Meanwhile, I recently found this little vignette (of sorts) on YouTube: and while it is too much to hope that such a small thing could restore your equilibrium, perhaps it will cheer up up even for a moment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-4uKgXRnpI

Really.
Norma

Yes, I'm fine. Thanks for asking. : ) Am a little tired, perhaps. Sleep is constantly being interrupted lately and I'm not able to get the proper amount of zzzs I would normally need... oh well.

I guess we're just simply not seeing eye-to-eye here and "can't hear" each other well.

But thank you for that treat of a cheer-me-up-tune. It immediately reminded my of this old classic and which would make for a much better hearing of what the other is saying - even if it is said without words. : )
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Dunning

Postby Gord » Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:36 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Sleep is constantly being interrupted lately and I'm not able to get the proper amount of zzzs I would normally need... oh well.

Too many dragons?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Dunning

Postby kennyc » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:30 am

JO 753 wrote:Haz alot to do with the draw backs uv our artificial cooperation invention known az 'money'.


Truth, but before money, it was gold, jewels, etc.
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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:53 am

They were money. Not the refined version we hav today, but still money.
Gubmint for us
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not the rich.

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Re: Dunning

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:41 pm

Gord wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Sleep is constantly being interrupted lately and I'm not able to get the proper amount of zzzs I would normally need... oh well.

Too many dragons?

And slayers.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Dunning

Postby vanderpoel » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:58 pm

Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: Dunning

Postby fromthehills » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:04 pm

vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


It's a movement. One doesn't have to be a part of that movement to be a skeptic, or Skeptic, whichever. I want there to be Skeptical speakers in the public eye to counteract the plethora of nonsense promoters. Good science and critical thinking communicators are a must, in my opinion. To support that, monetarily or otherwise isn't likened to tithing, unless making contributions to NPR, or Red Cross, et cetera is tithing.

Good to see you Van.

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Re: Dunning

Postby vanderpoel » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:51 pm

fromthehills wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


It's a movement. One doesn't have to be a part of that movement to be a skeptic, or Skeptic, whichever. I want there to be Skeptical speakers in the public eye to counteract the plethora of nonsense promoters. Good science and critical thinking communicators are a must, in my opinion. To support that, monetarily or otherwise isn't likened to tithing, unless making contributions to NPR, or Red Cross, et cetera is tithing.

Good to see you Van.

Same here, From!
It would be nice if critical thinking was a movement influencing people to think.
Judging by the number of posters who refer to themselves as skeptics it's hard to see how that is different from calling themselves followers or believers, the very things that kill critical thinking.
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:50 pm

vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


This is not exactly the place, Vanderpoel, to reflect on Skepticism as a philosophy, .
Philosophy having been roundly derided and finally interred as dead, gone and forgotten by the resident and dominant Philistines who were never exposed to the study in the first place.
But there is something interesting and perhaps a bit poignant in the desire that we poor humans have to be unique on the one hand and part of something larger, more communal, the common goal, on the other..
We want to think we are marching to our own drummer, the rat-a-tat that goes on in our heads.
But we seem, and at the same time to have the need to be a part, with others of (imaginary) like mind (i.e. the careless, manipulative, even desperate overuse of "WE") under the banner of "THIS IS THE LIGHT AND THE WAY." ****
Something that smacks of the crusade, despite the fact that there has never been a crusade that didn't end in the slaughter of those who couldn't or wouldn't get in line for the march.
Dispiriting… but my own interoperation of skepticism is "keep your own counsel, question everything , but when you give your heart away, hold on ferociously to your head."
Because I get nervous (and skeptical) when there are two people in a room and one of them says "me too!!" more than once.

**** This bit of pop culture comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co


NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:45 pm

Even chimpanzees use deception to get what they can't get by more direct means. Humans have a more complex society, hence more complex and devious deceptions.

Even when small pockets of humans have eschewed the more larcenous forms of deception, such as nicking your hostess' silverware, there are still rampant deceptions in social interactions.

What do you think make-up is?
What do you think a suit-and-tie is?

Skepticism is a tool for acquiring a truer understanding of the world around us. It is not a tool for escaping our essential humanness.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Dunning

Postby vanderpoel » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:40 pm

nmblum wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


This is not exactly the place, Vanderpoel, to reflect on Skepticism as a philosophy, .
Philosophy having been roundly derided and finally interred as dead, gone and forgotten by the resident and dominant Philistines who were never exposed to the study in the first place.
But there is something interesting and perhaps a bit poignant in the desire that we poor humans have to be unique on the one hand and part of something larger, more communal, the common goal, on the other..
We want to think we are marching to our own drummer, the rat-a-tat that goes on in our heads.
But we seem, and at the same time to have the need to be a part, with others of (imaginary) like mind (i.e. the careless, manipulative, even desperate overuse of "WE") under the banner of "THIS IS THE LIGHT AND THE WAY." ****
Something that smacks of the crusade, despite the fact that there has never been a crusade that didn't end in the slaughter of those who couldn't or wouldn't get in line for the march.
Dispiriting… but my own interoperation of skepticism is "keep your own counsel, question everything , but when you give your heart away, hold on ferociously to your head."
Because I get nervous (and skeptical) when there are two people in a room and one of them says "me too!!" more than once.

**** This bit of pop culture comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co


NMB

Yeah, me too :)
"When you put a toucan on a monkey’s ass, don’t be fooled by the brightly colored plumage, beware of the enormous bill!"

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Re: Dunning

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:45 pm

vanderpoel wrote:
nmblum wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


This is not exactly the place, Vanderpoel, to reflect on Skepticism as a philosophy, .
Philosophy having been roundly derided and finally interred as dead, gone and forgotten by the resident and dominant Philistines who were never exposed to the study in the first place.
But there is something interesting and perhaps a bit poignant in the desire that we poor humans have to be unique on the one hand and part of something larger, more communal, the common goal, on the other..
We want to think we are marching to our own drummer, the rat-a-tat that goes on in our heads.
But we seem, and at the same time to have the need to be a part, with others of (imaginary) like mind (i.e. the careless, manipulative, even desperate overuse of "WE") under the banner of "THIS IS THE LIGHT AND THE WAY." ****
Something that smacks of the crusade, despite the fact that there has never been a crusade that didn't end in the slaughter of those who couldn't or wouldn't get in line for the march.
Dispiriting… but my own interoperation of skepticism is "keep your own counsel, question everything , but when you give your heart away, hold on ferociously to your head."
Because I get nervous (and skeptical) when there are two people in a room and one of them says "me too!!" more than once.

**** This bit of pop culture comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co


NMB

Yeah, me too :)

You need to say it more than once, like this: Me too, Norma. Me too!
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:48 pm

vanderpoel wrote:
nmblum wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


This is not exactly the place, Vanderpoel, to reflect on Skepticism as a philosophy, .
Philosophy having been roundly derided and finally interred as dead, gone and forgotten by the resident and dominant Philistines who were never exposed to the study in the first place.
But there is something interesting and perhaps a bit poignant in the desire that we poor humans have to be unique on the one hand and part of something larger, more communal, the common goal, on the other..
We want to think we are marching to our own drummer, the rat-a-tat that goes on in our heads.
But we seem, and at the same time to have the need to be a part, with others of (imaginary) like mind (i.e. the careless, manipulative, even desperate overuse of "WE") under the banner of "THIS IS THE LIGHT AND THE WAY." ****
Something that smacks of the crusade, despite the fact that there has never been a crusade that didn't end in the slaughter of those who couldn't or wouldn't get in line for the march.
Dispiriting… but my own interoperation of skepticism is "keep your own counsel, question everything , but when you give your heart away, hold on ferociously to your head."
Because I get nervous (and skeptical) when there are two people in a room and one of them says "me too!!" more than once.

**** This bit of pop culture comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co


NMB

Yeah, me too :)


There goes your "once."
(But you've used it well.)

NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby nmblum88 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:10 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:
nmblum wrote:
vanderpoel wrote:Following the exchanges on the Dunning topic it appears that skepticism is now a movement in search of a capital S, as if being skeptical is as virtuous a quality as being stoic is for academics who pledge allegiance to Stoicism.
If you doubt that certain knowledge is impossible you're philosopher, if you doubt this you just have a skeptical attitude, either way you're not a member of a movement, you don't have to follow anyone, you don't have to tithe and you don't have to wear togas.


This is not exactly the place, Vanderpoel, to reflect on Skepticism as a philosophy, .
Philosophy having been roundly derided and finally interred as dead, gone and forgotten by the resident and dominant Philistines who were never exposed to the study in the first place.
But there is something interesting and perhaps a bit poignant in the desire that we poor humans have to be unique on the one hand and part of something larger, more communal, the common goal, on the other..
We want to think we are marching to our own drummer, the rat-a-tat that goes on in our heads.
But we seem, and at the same time to have the need to be a part, with others of (imaginary) like mind (i.e. the careless, manipulative, even desperate overuse of "WE") under the banner of "THIS IS THE LIGHT AND THE WAY." ****
Something that smacks of the crusade, despite the fact that there has never been a crusade that didn't end in the slaughter of those who couldn't or wouldn't get in line for the march.
Dispiriting… but my own interoperation of skepticism is "keep your own counsel, question everything , but when you give your heart away, hold on ferociously to your head."
Because I get nervous (and skeptical) when there are two people in a room and one of them says "me too!!" more than once.

**** This bit of pop culture comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co


NMB

Yeah, me too :)

You need to say it more than once, like this: Me too, Norma. Me too!


Your telling someone what he NEEDS to say and how to say it, might be the summing up of what makes claims to skepticism so meaningless.
Skepticism is as skepticism does… taking orders in matters of what to say, as with what to think, and whom to get the orders from, isn't even in the same neighborhood where skepticism lives.
(Or has a chance in hell of finding an apartment.)

NMB
P.S. Not to be considered in the realm of skepticism… but I have amused myself by trying to imagine how Diogenes Laertius managed to express himself without little yellow balls…
NMB
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: Dunning

Postby clarsct » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:32 am

NMB:
Someone to blame is the problem, not the solution. It's why we made up gods and devils, alike. When we keep looking otuside ourselves for answers, we ignore the obvious. We need to go through the pain that we are to blame.

This is why I view the idea of no gods, no divine, terrible, purpose with optimism. If Gods and Devils pull our strings, then there is no hope but to beg and plead with the divine. But if the problems are ours, then we have a shot at solving them. They may be complex, they may be big, but if they are only created by humans, then we stand at least a chance on our own.

Pain teaches.
When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes a Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics.

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Re: Dunning

Postby JO 753 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:55 am

But not very efficiently or reliably, clarsct. It seemz to me that usually people just get uzed to the pain and ignore it.

Look at all the horrible conditionz and situationz people get born into and never leave. They coud just start walking at any time, but out uv fear, enertia and the inability to imajin that thingz coud be better elsewhere, they stay.
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Re: Dunning

Postby clarsct » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:13 am

JO 753 wrote:But not very efficiently or reliably, clarsct. It seemz to me that usually people just get uzed to the pain and ignore it.

Look at all the horrible conditionz and situationz people get born into and never leave. They coud just start walking at any time, but out uv fear, enertia and the inability to imajin that thingz coud be better elsewhere, they stay.


If people stay in a painful situation, then on some level, it is working for them.

But it also sometimes isn't that easy. Try to walk out of North Korea, and they kill your entire family. I never said it wasn't hard. Life isn't complicated, but it isn't easy, either.

Self realization can be painful, as well. We tend to avoid pain, and do what is easy. But the safest paths run ever downward into stagnation. If you're not willing to endure necessary pain, then you're missing something very vital to being human.

But to turn away and delve into supernatural entities as scapegoats is like heroin. It numbs the pain, but takes away something vital. I am not saying people don't do so, I am saying they shouldn't. We should at least try to come up with workable solutions to the problems facing the world. The first step is admitting that we may be part of the problem.
When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes a Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics.


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